R290X Crossfire V NVDA's SLI 780s/Titans from [H]

[Teizo]

I found that the game used about 1.1GB (no MSAA) or 1.5GB (MSAA 4x) and that the game would then climb up its usage to the amount of VRAM the card had. The fact is that the game caches old assets and keeps them around so the VRAM readings from GPU-Z/MSI Afterburner are useless except for right at the beginning after you have just loaded the level.

This is important because a lot of people are showing traces after playing the game for a while and that is a flawed approach for this game as it misleads others into thinking that BF4 uses more VRAM than it does. BF4 runs fine on 2GB of VRAM, infact I don't have enough GPU stream processor grunt to push all the effects and MSAA + PPAA, but without PPAA I can run MSAA just fine. Its not VRAM that is the issue.

The PS4 and xbox1 might have a unified memory access system with the potential for VRAM usage to be in the 5-6GB range but in practice they don't have the GPU grunt power in their stream processors to really utilise it all. The cards they were based on typically ship with 1-2GB of VRAM and I suspect we'll continue to see console ports targeting that for much of their lifetime.

This is good to know. Thank you for sharing. I don't have the game just yet. Caught wind of a Black Friday Special that I am going to take advantage of for BF4 and COD Ghosts :awe:

 

[Firestorm007]

OH KNOES I am not an enthusiast! LOL ok LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I completely get the pc master race slants with comments like yours.

Wow..How are old are you? Grow up...

He's right. Open/good airflow can make a huge difference.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

The thing about AMD's cooler that everyone needs to realize is that they did what they had to do to beat the gtx780 and Titan. When they need to match the 780ti aftermarket cards will suddenly become available just in time for reviews.

 

[3DVagabond]

If AMD had put a more expensive cooler on the 290X it wouldn't be $550 and the 780 wouldn't be $500. Everybody be happy.

We'll get cards with better coolers soon enough. They will likely be ~$550 as well (Some will be more). Keeping the price of the reference card down sets the market price lower. Besides, most people would still not opt for a reference design even with a better cooler. Just like the aftermarket 780's are preferred over the reference design now.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Right, because in a day the cost to make a 780 dropped $150 for nvidia.

AMD would make money off the 290x at $370.


Its more likely they couldn't make as good of a cooler, they copy everything else nv does.

 

[Silverforce11]

AMD would make money off the 290x at $370.

Its more likely they couldn't make as good of a cooler, they copy everything else nv does.

Right, you know for a fact the BOM and wafer yields and pricing structure..

You make it sounds like making a good cooler is really hard. Its a matter of slapping extra $$ at it, two good fans and a giant heatsink with pipes. Look at all the MSI, Sapphire etc solutions. Difficult to do? Rather, AMD deliberately chose not to put a fancy cooler on it like they've done for many generations already. Why? You can speculate on this freely. But saying its too difficult and they couldn't do it is ridiculous.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Right, you know for a fact the BOM and wafer yields and pricing structure..

You make it sounds like making a good cooler is really hard. Its a matter of slapping extra $$ at it, two good fans and a giant heatsink with pipes. Look at all the MSI, Sapphire etc solutions. Difficult to do? Rather, AMD deliberately chose not to put a fancy cooler on it like they've done for many generations already. Why? You can speculate on this freely. But saying its too difficult and they couldn't do it is ridiculous.

I'm not sure why you you think either Nvidia or AMD can make open style coolers for reference, perhaps you don't understand the benefits of reference?

AMD tried to show case the 290X cooler, even called it improved. It is sorely lacking in comparison, but in its defense it has a much greater workload due to power consumption differences. It is improved over 7970 and 40nm reference cards, make no mistake, it's just R290X is the biggest hog they've released, ever.

 

[Silverforce11]

I'm not sure why you you think either Nvidia or AMD can make open style coolers for reference, perhaps you don't understand the benefits of reference?

AMD tried to show case the 290X cooler, even called it improved. It is sorely lacking in comparison, but in its defense it has a much greater workload due to power consumption differences. It is improved over 7970 and 40nm reference cards, make no mistake, it's just R290X is the biggest hog they've released, ever.

7990 has an open style cooler.. if they want, it can be done. These are $500+ GPUs, enthusiast level. Enthusiasts can cope with open air coolers, they're the ones buying up all the fancy cooler models.. or heck, even water cooling.

So the ONLY benefit for AMD going with a cheap rehash of the SAME design they've been doing since the 4800 series for blowers, is .. it's dirt cheap and they encourage their AIB partners to go fancy cooling to differentiate brands. They must have figured if enthusiasts are willing to buy a hot and loud $550 reference card, they must either be water cooling or insane.

It's no surprise the EK R290X water block is sold out here as well as the R290X itself. Australia's largest etailer: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php...&cPath=207_160_878_880_1501&products_id=25537

 

[BallaTheFeared]

7990 has an open style cooler..

And how did that work out with more than one card?

Radeon HD 7990 In CrossFire: The Red Wedding Of Graphics

 

[Silverforce11]

And how did that work out with more than one card?

Radeon HD 7990 In CrossFire: The Red Wedding Of Graphics

Not much difference to the current crap blowers. Open bench from [H], throttling in uber mode unless than fan is 70%.. pretty awful.

Fact is they can put whatever cooling they want on it, they just chose to do "barely enough" for reference models.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

So your argument is AMD could put a better blower on a $550 product, but they just chose not to?

 

[BrightCandle]

I think it was the 4870X2 that was the first card I chose to watercool to shut it up. The 5970 I equally tested on air and then very quickly moved to watercooling it. By the time I went for 2x 7970's I already knew that they were going to be too loud on air and had the waterblocks delivered on the same day. I still had to test the hardware without the coolers and wasn't surprised to find that I really did want to use watercooling.

When I replaced that with a pair of 680's I bought a set of waterblocks along with the cards, just assumed that being high end cards they would be loud. Tested them on air and actually was pleasantly surprised that they were not that noisy. I still put them under water because I have the kit to do it now but I didn't think it was as necessary as previous cards I had owned.

The morale of the story is either that AMD high end cards have always been loud and they have never really done much about it or that Nvidia realised after the mess with the 400 and 500 series that it was imperative to get the ergonomics right and to make quieter cards and AMD hasn't been blasted enough yet to get the message. Nvidia got blasted for their leaf blowers in the past (rightly so) and they did something drastic about it. AMD hasn't learnt that lesson yet, they are getting blasted just like Nvidia did and again rightly so.

Personally however I expect them to be too loud so I just water cool my GPU. Its an investment I made and have made over many years to build up to being able to cool and power a 1KW machine and I think that will last me quite a while. But that means each card costs even more (+$70 a card) and its a pain in the backside to change cards as taking the water loop apart takes basically an afternoon at least. So I change cards a lot less often.

 

[Silverforce11]

So your argument is AMD could put a better blower on a $550 product, but they just chose not to?

They've been doing the same "barely enough" reference HSF for many generations already. Why would it shock you that they chose to do it like so?

 

[DarkKnightDude]

I think it would have been better to charge it 600 dollars and put a decent cooler on it.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think it would have been better to charge it 600 dollars and put a decent cooler on it.

The AIB partners will do that. :thumbsup:

 

[GaiaHunter]

They've been doing the same "barely enough" reference HSF for many generations already. Why would it shock you that they chose to do it like so?

You know how it is.

AMD can't add better coolers, AMD can't make bigger chips than Tahi.... erm...

 

[caswow]

You know how it is.

AMD can't add better coolers, AMD can't make bigger chips than Tahi.... erm...

unlike nvidia did with gk104 amd build an 435mm² die and beating nvidia in both gaming and hpc while beeing way smaller than their counterpart.

 

[Silverforce11]

unlike nvidia did with gk104 amd build an 435mm² die and beating nvidia in both gaming and hpc while beeing way smaller than their counterpart.

Praise where its deserved, but certainly no way has AMD even come close to NV on HPC.. its ludicrous to think so when they aren't even a BLIP in that market.

 

[Enigmoid]

unlike nvidia did with gk104 amd build an 435mm² die and beating nvidia in both gaming and hpc while beeing way smaller than their counterpart.

If you are comparing it to the 780 then the 780 only has 80% of the shaders active (12 out of 15 SMX) and all the DP transistors turned off (read somewhere its approximately 65 mm^2). Effective die size is similar.

Essentially Hawaii has a leg over the 780 but at a higher power cost (remember nvidia is making most of their money with the GK 110 from the professional market where its hugely advantageous to go with a larger die for lower power given the margins there).

 

[blackened23]

Blackened, check it out: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35682986&postcount=41

That's from BF4 so that's why I think these new games are gonna start crossing 3GB on a single high resolution display like mine. Surround will probably go well beyond that figure.

Erm, were you using SGSSAA forced in the CP? What do you get with just ultra 4X MSAA? Curious. I just caught the part about SGSSAA - that would of course cause more VRAM use than standard FXAA or MSAA.

 

[tential]

It's 65 db for CF vs 52 for Titan SLI.

Is that really a big difference in actual noise?

Not positive but when I set my amplifier and then add 7 dBs it's not THAT bad.

For saving 1000 dollars it's worth it. Considering most people game with headphones ANYWAY, I don't think any of that matters. For those of us who game with surround sound systems it might matter more but TBH, if you game using home theater speakers, you don't need a Crossfire/SLI system as you're gaming on a 1080p display unless you went all out and got a 4K display.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Right, because in a day the cost to make a 780 dropped $150 for nvidia.

AMD would make money off the 290x at $370.


Its more likely they couldn't make as good of a cooler, they copy everything else nv does.

Yea, they are schooling Nvidia on the same manufacturing process on a smaller GPU with a lower clock speed, but they just can't get the cooler figured out.

 

[RussianSensation]

Source? All reviews I've read see the 290X at almost always at 1000 MHz in uber mode. Nvidia cards on the other hand are at about 850 MHz or even only base clock at default settings and also at their maximum boost bin with 94°C temp target.

You can't be farther from the truth.

Reference Titan's clock speed at AT varied from 966-992 mhz.
Reference 780's clock speed at AT varied from 969-1006 mhz.

R9 290X is about 7-12% faster than 780 at 1600P depending on the review. That means at similar clock speeds the R9 290X will outperform the 780/Titan.

Sweclockers review confirms this:

R9 290X @ 1075mhz vs. GTX780 with boost at 1082mhz and Titan with boost at 1087mhz.

R9 290X @ 1.075ghz beats Titan with boost at 1.087ghz in 5 out of 8 games:
http://www.sweclockers.com/recension/17772-amd-radeon-r9-290x/21#pagehead

Once after-market cards come out with beefed up VRMs and voltage unlock, if R9 290X can overclock to 1.2Ghz, it should have no problem keeps up with a Titan @ 1.25ghz and 780 @ 1.35ghz. Of course this is why NV is launching the 780Ti.

Either way, R9 290X trading blows with the Titan is good news since it costs "just" $550. Because of R9 290X the GTX780 Lightning fell from $750 to $535 and now comes with 3 free games! R9 290 will be the card to watch if it comes in at $449. If it can be flashed/unlocked into the 290X, the 780Ti will look stupid at $699.

This is pretty good progress. At this pace we should have Titan's performance at $399 on 20nm by end of 2014 since we already have Titan's performance now in after-market 780s/R9 290X at $535-550.

Right, because in a day the cost to make a 780 dropped $150 for nvidia. Its more likely they couldn't make as good of a cooler, they copy everything else nv does.

Right....minus NV's rip-off 770/780/Titan pricing, beating NV to DX11.1 and 11.2, Eyefinity, not crippling the VRAM on their cards (570 1.28GB/580 1.5GB/680-770 2GB), allowing full voltage control and dual bios switches for bios flashing, leaving the back-end (ROPs) and memory bandwidth intact on 2nd best card in the lineup (5850/6950/7950) unlike NV that loves to cripple their cards not only on the CUDA/core/TMU level but on the memory bandwidth side too.

NV offers 760 at $249 and 680 at $499 and people sing praises. AMD undercuts 770 by $100 with R9 280X at launch and delivers $650-700 after-market 780 performance at $550 in the R9 290X and people are focusing on the reference cooler that has been a failure for overclocking on 4890/5870/6970 and 7970? Makes sense because there will be no cards like Gigabyte Windforce R9 290X, right?

We have seen after-market coolers fix 480's poor temperatures and noise levels. It's a matter of time before the same is done on the R9 290X.

People have already used MSI Lightning 7970s in Quad-fire. It will be possible to fit 2-slot after-market R9 290X cards in a CF or even Tri-Fire configuration and still overclock.

There are very limited cases when buying a reference flagship $550-650 card is preferable to a good after-market model. I guess for the next 18 months you'll keep telling us how hot and loud the R9 290X is, ignoring after-market versions like you did for 7970GE?

For saving 1000 dollars it's worth it. Considering most people game with headphones ANYWAY, I don't think any of that matters. For those of us who game with surround sound systems it might matter more but TBH, if you game using home theater speakers, you don't need a Crossfire/SLI system as you're gaming on a 1080p display unless you went all out and got a 4K display.

You can buy two R9 290Xs and move everything on water and still come in below the price of two Titans. You can fix R9 290X's temperature and noise levels but how can you make up 20-40% performance deficit against R9 290X CF with 780/Titan SLI?

Some hardcore gamers bought 3-4 Titans. Just 8 months later, $1,750 R9 290X Tri-fire will be schooling $3,000 Titan Tri-SLI setup. Given AMD's lack of resources over the years, it's remarkable that they keep forcing NV to drop prices and have forced NV's hand to release a full-fledged GK110 to regain the performance crown. That's pretty good if you ask me from a company that still cannot afford to build 550-560mm2 die flagships and continues to be dragged down by its poor performing CPU division.