R520 Definitely 16 Pipes, Confirmed at AnandTech

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Does anyone think ATi is SO STUPID as to release a GPU that is not only 6 months late, but costs as much or more than the competition, knowing that it will barely outperform the competition...if at all?

Replace the name ATi with Nvidia and pretend this is Mar of 03.

This is worse then the 5800, You are supposed to learn from the past, not repeat it.

 

[Soccerman06]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
OMG the X1800XT is going to be the same price as the 7800GTX after a month, so stop whining. The 7800GTX was $600 or more at launch and dropped roughly 17%. Now that the X1800XT/XL have 512mbs might keep it at roughly $525 (give or take) but there are always bundles that will make the extra money worth it.

Remember you cant say that the R520 is a OCed X850XT because its not. The memory is larger and faster (1.26ns vs 1.6ns), the core is completely different, the pipes have been reworked (completely?), theres SM3.0, and all the other HD and AA/AF stuff.

Also, the reviews havent been released yet, so dont bash until you have seen theyre released.

Are you guessing all this? Or are you in the "know"? Care to share where you got this pricing info from? Or you can just bend over, spread butt cheeks, ram fist up there and pull out your next statement.

Of course I can predict the price of what the R520 can be after a month . But one thing you should know about venders, they try and make money asap, and then when demand dwindals (the 1 month timeframe, considering theres enough cards) they, online retailers for this example, lower the price because they will get more people to buy it. If its cheaper than the local BB or CompUSA, who only sell at msrp, more will shop online.

You see, when the 9800XT came out, and I was still worked at BB, I could get it for $400 (I got pro instead at $300) because thats the price BB bought the card for. Newegg gets the same price because they are a retailer, so they could technically lower the price as low as they want (obviously not below what they buy at). Now there might be a difference between how much a $600 (~20% less is $120, considering the XT) and how much a retailer buys it, it could be $400 or $550 we just dont know until it comes out. After a few months, the process of making the R520 will be even more streamlined and allow for vendors to buy the cards even cheaper and lower the prices even more. The only thing I could forsee that would not allow ATI to lower the price too much is the memory they use because its 1.26ns and 512mb, thats more expensive than the 7800GTX's 1.6ns 256mb memory (could i say 2x because theres twice as much and is faster).

I give the R520 roughly 1-2 months to lower its price $75-$100 on the XT after initial release, if theres enough in stock for the masses.

 

[arcas]

Wow. Only the expensive X1800 cards are HDCP-enabled. Damn.

 

[ZobarStyl]

You can't blame people for thinking it's a disappointment, Ackmed. Consider the fact that it's likely to hit full retail volume a good 4 months after the GTX; with that kind of time, we expected ATi to really have something great (32 or 24 pipes). Instead, we have something with the same amount of pipes as last gen but a mere 11% speed increase on the core. It'll take a lot of architechural differences to make up the rest of that performance gap, and that seems unlikely, given the tendency of the GPU industry to re-use pieces of previous architechures.

Of course another telling fact is that the specs for both the XT and XL have 512 mb of RAM, compared to the fact that all GTX models have 256. Does it mean they will perform better; of course not, more RAM is not indicative of performance. But memory size has always been a great way to trick an unknowing consumer into buying a card. Seems as though they're banking on that little number to help them sell cards.

Let them speculate, now that we have confirmed specs. There's no need to bust into an editor's thread with this whole "Nothing to see here, folks!" attitude and tell us we're fools for wanting ATi to come through with their previously reported 32/24 pipe cards, and feeling let down when they can't put one to market after 3 tape outs. We just expected better than this.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm pleased ATI are putting 512 mb ram in its x1800xl card. This would make the card look more value for money eventhough its like $499. However, most current games arent programmed to use 512 mb video memory, i remember a anandtech article on a x800xl 256 and x800xl 512 there was only slight fps increase even in doom 3 at ultra high quality. Hopefully games like F.E.A.R can take advantage of 512 mb.

If anandtech is going nda it means we wont have to wait more than a month for r520 official release right? I bet its first week of October.

 

[Soccerman06]

i remember a anandtech article on a x800xl 256 and x800xl 512 there was only slight fps increase even in doom 3 at ultra high quality

Remember though, that Anand and Doom 3 (Id) says that the game will produce artifacts when playing on ultra high quality if you dont have a 512mb card. F.E.A.R. might be a different story because it actually used more than 256mb (barely above 256) of video memory when I tested it on the rig in my sig on highest settings.

 

[compgeek89]

My first 512mb card will be a g80, i really dont think its worth the cost on a 256-bit memory bus

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: SickBeast


Rollo every time you buy an ATI videocard, no matter how good it is, it reminds me of a "Two Minutes Hate" from George Orwell's "1984". Even if the thing had 128 pipelines you would still go back to nVidia, claiming they have better drivers and you prefer green PCBs.

Personally I expect a few here to become converts of playing at ultra high resolutions, especially if ati takes an obvious lead with the r520 or r580.

I expect the r520 to be 10 - 15% slower than the 7800gtx, but they have bought time and the r580 may come sooner than expected.

I don't think that's the case. I think it will be slightly faster...that is the XT and maybe the XL or equal in performance. Now, it doesn't have to be faster at all if the R520's IQ is better. ATi put in for a patent on the Avivo tech and that patent says that is has to do with IQ. ATi is tightlipped about Avivo too so it might be pretty good.

I'm over here with a X300 temp card so it's killing me not to go buy a G70 right now. After waiting for a few months, I can wait for 3 more weeks to see who's faster. As long as it's not any slower I'll buy it. Well I will say this, if it's delayed one more time, I'm done with ATi this upgrade cycle.

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

3. Those clockspeeds while cannot amount in some cases to the G70's Pixel Pipes and what not, they will still compete. Remember the Pixel Pipes right now for ATI, as shown, are just barely holding them back in terms of Fill Rate. They actually beat the G70 in terms of Memory Bandwidth. The downside to this is, as we have seen, low yields, and more than likely higher power usage. More pipes will always (AFAIK) be more efficient than ramping up clockspeeds.

-Kevin

Several sources including Tom's have state the yields are fine now. The places pushing the low yields are the same places that kept repeating that silly 32 pipe rumour and they are covering their tracks. As for power, I haven't read anything anywhere on that - but I thought that generally a smaller process meant lower power consumption? I agree that more pipes should be a big advantage.

I wouldn't be so bold as to say yields are fine. 700mhz memory is pushing the limits, not to mention a brand new 90nm technology running at 600mhz. I would say yeilds are probably acceptable, but not fine. THen again, i know no more than you so that is merely speculation on my part.

While the smaller process should yield lower power, AFAIK, it takes significantly more power to ramp up the clockspeed (inherently ramping up voltage) than to simply put more pipes in. They give the same end result, but i would be more inclined to go with more pipes than a higher clock frequency.

-Kevin

For the record.... i wouldn't trust toms hardware, they are easily bought out for biased reviews.

I completely agree with what kevin said.
Performance isnt the only question. Power consumption. Heat. Noise.
A card that is clocked at 600mhz would cause alot of heat. Plus using 1.26ns Samsung GDDR3 means the prices would be expensive. I mean really expensive.

Isnt the prices of the GTXs like 470ish now? A $480 7800GTX vs $599 X1800 XT.
Who is actually looking forward to buying the high end??

True but you get a total of 512MB of ram which is pretty good for $600! If the performance is at least equal, it's worth it. If it's slower than the G70 then I won't buy it. Two things the R520 have on the G70 is more memory and possibly better IQ. I think ATi's IQ will be superior since they won't say anything about their new Avivo tech but we know it's related to IQ for sure...the patent says so.

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
You know the price difference from 1.26ns from 1.6? Its ALOT.
ATi retaped there core 3 times. You expect them to drop the prices?, unless you wanna see ATi losing even more money, how about no.

Like i said all things considered (Performance equal or maybe little bit faster than a 7800GTX), Heat, power, noise etc.

The 7800GTX at 480 is way more attractive than a X1800 XT at $599 or even more due to limited quantity of the higher ATi parts. Yea and thats bundles included.

Nvidia only released it as 599 because there was NO compeition and it was a chance to make lots of profit out of the situation.

Or would you buy the X1800 XT? its either your loaded with money, or just an ATi fanboy that is all.

Its not bashing either. Hey, im interested at all this internal 512bit bus ring and HDR +AA, but at a consumers point of view, economically, i dont see how a X1800XT will be better off than a cheaper 7800GTX.

If the performance is at least equal, it's worth it because you've got an extra 256MB of ram vs the G70. I am comparing both cards at their debut price of course; then again we don't know the exact price and like you said the R520 might be overpriced. I'll pay as much as $600 for one. I'd like to get an X1800 XT but I'll settle for an XL since they are the same card, I'll just O/C the XL to XT and above speeds. I'm sure the XL will do it. After all the core is only clocked 50MHz lower and the memory 75 MHz lower. I think the IQ here will be the key and they'll be alright as long at it's not slower....that is the XT and XL.

 

[Genx87]

Fillrate limited situations this card could win. Pixel shader limited situations the plain jane 430Mhz 7800 should win. Considering many of the 7800GTXs are 450Mhz and some as high as 490Mhz. I dont see how this beast will beat the 7800GTX in todays games unless Anandtech got the amount of pixel shaders incorrect.

If the R520 comes equipped with 16ROPs and 24 pixel pipes then it is looking at about a 40% head room in pixel performance over a 430Mhz 7800GTX. That should push it will ahead of the 7800 in pixel limited scenes.

If it is 16 ROP\Pixel I just dont see how it wins on paper which means it shouldnt win in real life.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Additionally, the 7800 also was revolutionary for Nvidia because they ditched shader replacement.

Heh.

/cynic
/realist

 

[jam3]

Just from someone who likes to buy the best card (or anything for that matter) regardless of the vendor, there sure is a heck of alot of fanboiism going on here. From everthing I've read the general tone from those obviously in ATI's camp have been

more pipelines -> better fillrate, and the r520 will have 32 pipes!!!

And now that the reality of a problem with the fabrication process of a new architecture on a new 90nm die size has hit them and ATI dead on and forced them to use a card with 16 pipes the cry has turned into

well pipelines actually dont matter much

I am buying a new rig so I am following everything very close, I'll wait for Anand's "real-world" benchmarks before drawing any final conclusions. I just think it's funny to see a persons loyalty to a company race any ethics a person might have straight to the bottom.
especially saying things like


How could ATI be that stupid? They must have planned this, their next move will destroy NVIDIA!

etc
etc

Face it ATI had an ENGINEERING problem that cost them alot of money, time, and face. They didn't plan it or wish it upon themselves, and its definetly not a good thing for them as a company.

I sincerly hope the 1800 series provides them with a good enough revenue stream to continue on and have a more successfull go at NVIDIA the next round, the last thing we need is for one company to dominate this market.

 

[g3pro]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: g3pro

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Sounds like a 6-month-late let down

So much for competition. We lose.

QFT.

Here we go with more ignorance, about the "truth". The only truth is, we dont know how it will perform. And you make youself look silly by thinking that you do. If you think competition is a "loss" for consumers, you really dont have a clue.

No, I'm sorry that you're wrong this time. 16 pipes is a huge let-down, no matter how you spin it.

Originally posted by: g3pro
No, I'm sorry that you're wrong this time. 16 pipes is a huge let-down, no matter how you spin it.

QFT.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: jam3
From everthing I've read the general tone from those obviously in ATI's camp have been

more pipelines -> better fillrate, and the r520 will have 32 pipes!!!

And now that the reality of a problem with the fabrication process of a new architecture on a new 90nm die size has hit them and ATI dead on and forced them to use a card with 16 pipes the cry has turned into

well pipelines actually dont matter much

Funny how that works isn't it? I think this is going to be a bad year all the way around for ATI: anti-climactic/late product launch, lawsuits galore, and loss of the high end market.

I guess it's back to the drawing board for them. If their product only offers similar performance and uses more power, throws off more heat, and takes up more space the ATI faithful will not be pleased.

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: jam3
Just from someone who likes to buy the best card (or anything for that matter) regardless of the vendor, there sure is a heck of alot of fanboiism going on here. From everthing I've read the general tone from those obviously in ATI's camp have been

more pipelines -> better fillrate, and the r520 will have 32 pipes!!!

And now that the reality of a problem with the fabrication process of a new architecture on a new 90nm die size has hit them and ATI dead on and forced them to use a card with 16 pipes the cry has turned into

well pipelines actually dont matter much

I am buying a new rig so I am following everything very close, I'll wait for Anand's "real-world" benchmarks before drawing any final conclusions. I just think it's funny to see a persons loyalty to a company race any ethics a person might have straight to the bottom.
especially saying things like


How could ATI be that stupid? They must have planned this, their next move will destroy NVIDIA!

etc
etc

Face it ATI had an ENGINEERING problem that cost them alot of money, time, and face. They didn't plan it or wish it upon themselves, and its definetly not a good thing for them as a company.

I sincerly hope the 1800 series provides them with a good enough revenue stream to continue on and have a more successfull go at NVIDIA the next round, the last thing we need is for one company to dominate this market.

Actually ATi said a while ago that after the R520 is released you won't look on the pipelines the same way. Now while I do think they intended to release a 24 and 32 pipe version, the 16 pipe version does look to be good enough to at least be slightly faster or equal in performance. I'm neither an ATi fanboi or an nVidiot. I too will go with the fastest card. I do prefer ATi has my last card (and first ATi card) was a 9800P and it was the best card I've ever had. So of course I'm looking toward ATi for a repeat of the 9800P. I don't see them doing it with the R520. Possibly with the R580 since it will have 24 and 32 pipes.

Now I don't know if the R520 will be a success or not but it is possible that it could a very good card. Look at AMD and they have a shorter pipeline and lower frequencies than Intel does and they are noticeably faster than Intel in just about everything! That said, I am disappointed in having only 16 pipes but I don't care as long as they are at least as fast as the G70. The R520 does have faster memory, more memory with the XT and XL variants (512MB of ram) and will possibly have the superior IQ with their patented Avivo tech that won't comment on right now.

The con of R520 is the fillrate. The G70 has it beat especially with higher resolutions also the G70 can be clocked slower and still keep up. Honestly I think the XT will be slightly faster than the G70 and the XL will be nearly identical in performance. Whenever nVidia released a refresh product for the G70, it will almost certainly be faster than the R520 XT. I think the real question is which one looks better (IQ). If the R520 is slower than the G70 and the IQ is say...the same then I'll be getting a G70 just as soon as I see those benchmarks! Speaking of which, I wish they would release them. I just want to get the best card, beit ATi or nVidia. I will be supremely pissed off if ATi's card is slower because I've waited all this time!

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: jam3
From everthing I've read the general tone from those obviously in ATI's camp have been

more pipelines -> better fillrate, and the r520 will have 32 pipes!!!

And now that the reality of a problem with the fabrication process of a new architecture on a new 90nm die size has hit them and ATI dead on and forced them to use a card with 16 pipes the cry has turned into

well pipelines actually dont matter much

Funny how that works isn't it? I think this is going to be a bad year all the way around for ATI: anti-climactic/late product launch, lawsuits galore, and loss of the high end market.

I guess it's back to the drawing board for them. If their product only offers similar performance and uses more power, throws off more heat, and takes up more space the ATI faithful will not be pleased.

No matter how fast the R520 is or isn't the R580 is the one to get. They've always said that; however I think they intended the R520 to be faster than it is. I am disappointed in them but I can't make a final judgement until it's released. Of course that is the problem isn't it....it being released. We just want the thing released so we can make a decision!!! Well there is one thing good about having to wait this long. If I end up buying a G70, at least the price will be much lower than it was when it was first launched!

 

[nRollo]

The whole "R580 is taped out" thing is pretty strange.

On one hand the R520 isn't even out the door and you're telling people you may de-value it by releasing another core on it's heels?

On the other, they said the the R520 was "taped out" last November, and it looks like it's not going to really be for sale till a year later. So, what the R580 is or isn't may well be a moot point.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Rollo
The whole "R580 is taped out" thing is pretty strange.

On one hand the R520 isn't even out the door and you're telling people you may de-value it by releasing another core on it's heels?

On the other, they said the the R520 was "taped out" last November, and it looks like it's not going to really be for sale till a year later. So, what the R580 is or isn't may well be a moot point.

Seriously, I don't want to hear anything about R580 until we see some real R520 cards.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Rollo
The whole "R580 is taped out" thing is pretty strange.

On one hand the R520 isn't even out the door and you're telling people you may de-value it by releasing another core on it's heels?

On the other, they said the the R520 was "taped out" last November, and it looks like it's not going to really be for sale till a year later. So, what the R580 is or isn't may well be a moot point.

i think it has to tape out at least once in order to get working chips, which they have shown at various trade shows.

 

[Sithtiger]

Originally posted by: Rollo
The whole "R580 is taped out" thing is pretty strange.

On one hand the R520 isn't even out the door and you're telling people you may de-value it by releasing another core on it's heels?

On the other, they said the the R520 was "taped out" last November, and it looks like it's not going to really be for sale till a year later. So, what the R580 is or isn't may well be a moot point.

ATi had a separate team work on the R580 and while the same thing could happen, I don't believe it won't since I think they learned from the mistakes of the R520. I'm not exactly sure when the R580 will be release but it will be at the first quarter of 2006 according to ATi. So yeah the R520 is being devalued by the R580, then again that's the way it always is....just not so dramatic. The thing to do would be to sell your R520 and then buy the R580 when it's released or if you've got enough money just pick one up. If I could wait, or I knew I could sell my R520 (assuming that I get one) I'd definitely buy the R580.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
Remember though, that Anand and Doom 3 (Id) says that the game will produce artifacts

Artifacts? No...

 

[Turtle 1]

Doesn't the R520 in fact have a 512bit ring memory controller running at 256Bits Isn't that a fact . You said it was 256bit when it is infact 512bit running at 256 bits' I would think ati did this for future proofing this architecture. Also hasn't ATI gone further than shader 3 on this gpu its just not active. Also you don't mention the fact that R520's are infact 32 pipe cards with 16 either not working or there disable as ATI feels there is no need for them to compete with the G70's . I think we should all just sit back and wait 2 weeks . I think there is much to be reviled about this GPU that is going to shock and awl many. Also didn't ATI say that 16 pipes would be the same as 20 pipes on there current GPU'S. I think those who waited for the ATI release are going to be really happy. Those that bought the G70's well what can you say about them .They already have to deal with a really bad IQ.

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: g3pro

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: g3pro

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Sounds like a 6-month-late let down

So much for competition. We lose.

QFT.

Here we go with more ignorance, about the "truth". The only truth is, we dont know how it will perform. And you make youself look silly by thinking that you do. If you think competition is a "loss" for consumers, you really dont have a clue.

No, I'm sorry that you're wrong this time. 16 pipes is a huge let-down, no matter how you spin it.

Originally posted by: g3pro
No, I'm sorry that you're wrong this time. 16 pipes is a huge let-down, no matter how you spin it.

QFT.

Your life is a let-down.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Turtle 1
Doesn't the R520 in fact have a 512bit ring memory controller running at 256Bits Isn't that a fact . You said it was 256bit when it is infact 512bit running at 256 bits' I would think ati did this for future proofing this architecture. Also hasn't ATI gone further than shader 3 on this gpu its just not active. Also you don't mention the fact that R520's are infact 32 pipe cards with 16 either not working or there disable as ATI feels there is no need for them to compete with the G70's . I think we should all just sit back and wait 2 weeks . I think there is much to be reviled about this GPU that is going to shock and awl many. Also didn't ATI say that 16 pipes would be the same as 20 pipes on there current GPU'S. I think those who waited for the ATI release are going to be really happy. Those that bought the G70's well what can you say about them .They already have to deal with a really bad IO.

hahahaha