R580 Details - Foxconn already has design kits for ATI's R580 socket

[apoppin]

UPDATE:

Havok to compete with AGEIA for physics

many have heard of AGEIA and its startling announcement: they will produce a processor used exclusively to process physics related computations. Called the PPU, or Physics Processing Unit, its role will be to offload highly intensive mathematics such as realistic water movement, realistic character physical reactions to objects and the world, from the CPU to a dedicated processor. This all seems like the natural progression of things, since dedicated sound, network and other processors are commonplace.

Today, however, most processors spend their time mostly idling - you're rarely ever pushing your hardware to its limits consistently. Thus Havok, a company that's well known to game developers, has announced that it has plans to do for you what AGEIA promises, but save you money and maximize your dollar spent at the same time. Indeed, Havok has confirmed with us that they are competing with AGEIA.

The Havok FX engine is what Havok claims will provide the functionality of a PPU, but its approach is entirely different than AGEIA's. What's special about Havok FX is that it's a software engine that is currently based on Havok's widely used physics engines. However, Havok FX is designed to offload many intensive physics functions from the CPU to the GPU. Using technology available in Shader Model 3.0 and beyond, the Havok FX engine will be able to take advantage of unused resources of today's powerful GPU's and put them to use.

R580 Details Emerge

After speaking with several AIBs today, we have some confirmation that Foxconn already has design kits for ATI's R580 socket. Pipe and clock information for R580 is still not firm, so we will not comment on that at this moment. However, your ATI video card will most likely come with a socket flip chip from ATI. Unlike the NVIDIA socket prototype we commented about yesterday, the R580 socket is geared specifically for a PCIe graphics adaptor, rather than a motherboard-housed GPU socket.

However even with a dedicated socket, graphic card memory would still need to be soldered onto the board. The narrow tolerances of GPU memory would not allow for a DIMM-like solution. ATI's newest R520 GPU already advertises support for a wide range of memory products, including memory that has not even been announced yet.

Vendors tell us R580 is some ways away, so don't expect anything between now and CeBit. However, now that ATI's XBOX 360 project is winding down, expect the company to utilize more resources for R580, Crossfire and the Xpress chipset in the coming weeks.

AEGIA might have a run for it's money if ATI has anything to say about it. One AIB commented today that the idea of a dedicated scalar mathematics processor for game physics could already be replicated on ATI's R520 series silicon, although drivers for such a project only exist in R+D departments (the vendor wouldn't let us have them, we tried). The idea of offloading math to a GPU is not a new idea; many projects exist for Linux for this already. However, the indication we had was that ATI could actually do physics calculations on the card with the graphics processing simultaniously -- the bandwidth is already there. AEGIA's physics processor has already been delayed well into Q2 next year.

The MOST interesting thing - to me - was not needing an extra card - the PPU

 

[Duvie]

sounds good...I never liked the idea of another card......

 

[Polish3d]

That would trul be fantastic

 

[Chocolate Pi]

But the thing is, the physics revolution has to come from a developer standpoint. Wishful drivers that only exist in R and D have about as much power to move the market as my cat...

Still, gotta have a dream! This is the right direction.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Chocolate Pi
But the thing is, the physics revolution has to come from a developer standpoint. Wishful drivers that only exist in R and D have about as much power to move the market as my cat...

Still, gotta have a dream! This is the right direction.

the point is . . . ati can do this . . . no dount their R&D is working hard on it right now as - if implemented - would surely be an edge over nVidia's 7800 series [not to mention saving HUNDREDS of dollars on a separate PPU]

[i bet nVidia is working on something similar] Check out Anand's news on nVidia's new concept MB with a Flip-Chip cpu AND gpu . . . in the future you may upgrade video by just dropping in your new GPU . . .
:Q

Not to mention standardized PCIe cards with different GPUs that can be installed by the OEMs
[ati is doing this too - saves BIG bucks for them]

 

[CPlusPlusGeek]

I knew the PCIe cards with installable GPUs would happen sooner or later.

 

[Duvie]

I agree...This is too big for Nvidia and ATi to roll over and let someone else come in and steal....I like one card idea and dual gpus on board to handle this...less is always better in my mind.....

 

[Gamingphreek]

That possible PPU replacement is only a rumor. I haven't seen anything in any of the pics to suggest this though. I dont know if anyone else has. I would imagine that would require a fair amount of logic, so chances are you would see something on the board.

As for the sockets...im ready and waiting

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
That possible PPU replacement is only a rumor. I haven't seen anything in any of the pics to suggest this though. I dont know if anyone else has. I would imagine that would require a fair amount of logic, so chances are you would see something on the board.

what are you talking about?


the article is from AT - not theInq - and it's way more than a rumour . . .
:Q

read it again

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Chocolate Pi
But the thing is, the physics revolution has to come from a developer standpoint. Wishful drivers that only exist in R and D have about as much power to move the market as my cat...

Still, gotta have a dream! This is the right direction.

the point is . . . ati can do this . . . no dount their R&D is working hard on it right now as - if implemented - would surely be an edge over nVidia's 7800 series [not to mention saving HUNDREDS of dollars on a separate PPU]

[i bet nVidia is working on something similar] Check out Anand's news on nVidia's new concept MB with a Flip-Chip cpu AND gpu . . . in the future you may upgrade video by just dropping in your new GPU . . .
:Q

Not to mention standardized PCIe cards with different GPUs that can be installed by the OEMs
[ati is doing this too - saves BIG bucks for them]

Check out the quote from the thread author, the R580 will have some sort of flip chip also but just on a graphics card adaptor for PCIe and not directly on the motherboard.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
That possible PPU replacement is only a rumor. I haven't seen anything in any of the pics to suggest this though. I dont know if anyone else has. I would imagine that would require a fair amount of logic, so chances are you would see something on the board.

what are you talking about?


the article is from AT - not theInq - and it's way more than a rumour . . .
:Q

read it again

One AIB commented today that the idea of a dedicated scalar mathematics processor for game physics could already be replicated on ATI's R520 series silicon

 

[apoppin]

yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

If it's a choice between 60fps solid and 40fps with a little bit of added Physics i'd choose 60fps every time. I personally am not willing to lose performance to calculate Physics on a GPU, if you are then you're something else.

 

[biostud]

I wonder if they'll introduce it as an upgrade option in "crossfire", so the old card can do physics calculation and the new graphics, (r600 graphics + r520 physics)

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

If it's a choice between 60fps solid and 40fps with a little bit of added Physics i'd choose 60fps every time. I personally am not willing to lose performance to calculate Physics on a GPU, if you are then you're something else.

If you're losing fps by doing physics on the graphics card, then it means you are GPU bound not CPU bound, which means the CPU could be doing more physics anyway so you don't need to offload onto the GPU....

 

[lifeguard1999]

It "can" be done, but "will" it be done??? The Voodoo5 6000 could be produced for retail sale, but they never were.

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

If it's a choice between 60fps solid and 40fps with a little bit of added Physics i'd choose 60fps every time. I personally am not willing to lose performance to calculate Physics on a GPU, if you are then you're something else.

If you're losing fps by doing physics on the graphics card, then it means you are GPU bound not CPU bound, which means the CPU could be doing more physics anyway so you don't need to offload onto the GPU....

It is actually possible to be both CPU & GPU bound. I would rather have a PPU Chip than a GPU that can handle basic Physics, I personlaly can afford a PPU and when I get my hands on one it'll go right alongside my 7800GT (which i'll be replacing with a G72/3 when available). I'm not saying nVidia are bad for not including such code optimisations i'm saying I prefer a dedicated solution to a half-assed atempt.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
It "can" be done, but "will" it be done??? The Voodoo5 6000 could be produced for retail sale, but they never were.

absolutely - imo

There is BIG money in PPUs [aren't they supposed tyo retail upwards of $300?]
:Q

ati won't ignore this one
[neither will nVidia]

it's "big"

:thumbsup:

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

Maybe you should simmer down a bit appopin. You are adding more to the article than there really was. You always take the "Wait and see" attitude. What's different today?
Respectfully,
Keys.

I would love to see the Ageia PhysX chip reviewed. I heard we may see something in December.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

Maybe you should simmer down a bit appopin. You are adding more to the article than there really was. You always take the "Wait and see" attitude. What's different today?
Respectfully,
Keys.

I would love to see the Ageia PhysX chip reviewed. I heard we may see something in December.

Agea's PPU will be available in '06 - Q2

and why 'simmer down'? . . . you NEVER tell a fellow nVidian to 'simmer down'
:roll:

i am adding NOTHING to the article but my opinion
[as usual]

and i do NOT "always take the "Wait and see" attitude" . . . something 'exciting' CAN be done on 520 . . . nice, but i do not expect to actually SEE it till r580 or r600 as drivers take a LONG time [upwards of a year if x-fire is an indication]

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

Maybe you should simmer down a bit appopin. You are adding more to the article than there really was. You always take the "Wait and see" attitude. What's different today?
Respectfully,
Keys.

I would love to see the Ageia PhysX chip reviewed. I heard we may see something in December.

Agea's PPU will be available in '06 - Q2

and why 'simmer down'? . . . you NEVER tell a fellow nVidian to 'simmer down'
:roll:

i am adding NOTHING to the article but my opinion
[as usual]

and i do NOT "always take the "Wait and see" attitude" . . . something 'exciting' CAN be done on 520 . . . nice, but i do not expect to actually SEE it till r580 or r600 as drivers take a LONG time [upwards of a year if x-fire is an indication]

There MUST be a secret code somewhere is this garbled text. *searches*

All this simmering has me hungry for bacon.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

Maybe you should simmer down a bit appopin. You are adding more to the article than there really was. You always take the "Wait and see" attitude. What's different today?
Respectfully,
Keys.

I would love to see the Ageia PhysX chip reviewed. I heard we may see something in December.

Agea's PPU will be available in '06 - Q2

and why 'simmer down'? . . . you NEVER tell a fellow nVidian to 'simmer down'
:roll:

i am adding NOTHING to the article but my opinion
[as usual]

and i do NOT "always take the "Wait and see" attitude" . . . something 'exciting' CAN be done on 520 . . . nice, but i do not expect to actually SEE it till r580 or r600 as drivers take a LONG time [upwards of a year if x-fire is an indication]

There MUST be a secret code somewhere is this garbled text. *searches*

All this simmering has me hungry for bacon.

let us know what you find

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin
yeah . . . it CAN be done :Q

:thumbsup:

!

That's what "could" means, Gamingphreek . . . not "maybe"
:roll:

Maybe you should simmer down a bit appopin. You are adding more to the article than there really was. You always take the "Wait and see" attitude. What's different today?
Respectfully,
Keys.

I would love to see the Ageia PhysX chip reviewed. I heard we may see something in December.

Agea's PPU will be available in '06 - Q2

and why 'simmer down'? . . . you NEVER tell a fellow nVidian to 'simmer down'
:roll:

i am adding NOTHING to the article but my opinion
[as usual]

and i do NOT "always take the "Wait and see" attitude" . . . something 'exciting' CAN be done on 520 . . . nice, but i do not expect to actually SEE it till r580 or r600 as drivers take a LONG time [upwards of a year if x-fire is an indication]

There MUST be a secret code somewhere is this garbled text. *searches*

All this simmering has me hungry for bacon.

let us know what you find

I had no idea you were not neutral. Always thought you were. My mistake.

 

[TerracideDK]

I still lack any indication of how WELL ATI's GPU can work as PPU...
And if you have your GPU working as PPU too, preformance will suffer.
Why?
Because the GPU can only do a limited number of MIPS.
Now you need the GPU to both do GFX and physics, then the GFX will suffer in direct proprotion to the amount of PPU work being done.
That is why we don't do GFX in CPU more, but have GPU's
And that will by why a CPU, GPU and PPU always will be faster than a CPU and a GPU acting like both a GPU and PPU...

Terra - Common logic people...please...

 

[the Chase]

I think it will take ATI/NVIDIA a year or two to be able to do what the ppu cards can do onboard their graphics cards. I think they are talking out of their marketing @#@ by saying oh sure we could do all that with our graphics cards. Yeah right. And my coffee maker goes out and mows the lawn while I'm at work....

Edit- above poster summed it up pretty well.