R9 290 or GTX780 ??

[blackened23]

Honestly though at 100Mhz higher the difference between the 290 and 780 is indistinguishable. When clocks are the same, the 290 is ~5-6% faster on average according to multiple websites. A 780@1300Mhz is ~6-7% faster than a 780@1200Mhz. So a 290@1200 and a 780@1300 are just a couple percentage points in favor of the 780. Close enough to call it even. Sure some of the binned 780s will hit 1400+ but a few of the 290s hit 1300+ as well (although not using the reference cooler).

With current prices I would go with a Lightning or Classy 780 although the Sapphire Tri-X 290 is a good buy too if it comes back in stock at $499.

Do you have citations from actual reviewer websites substantiating this? I have not seen any 290X cards overclock to a level of being 20% faster than Titan. While we know the GTX 780 has. In fact, 15-20% faster than Titan is the norm for overclocked aftermarket GTX 780 cards. I've linked several examples of such. And then when you go to the 780ti, it is overclocking to be 5-10% faster than the GTX 690. I should also add, the 780ti in reference stock form is roughly 8-9% faster than the Titan. So that makes aftermarket overclocked GTX 780 vanilla cards also faster than the 780ti by 5-10%. Of course, the 780ti can overclock as well, so the numbers level out again once you overclock both.

The proof is out there, it has been substantiated by guru3d. Techpowerup. HardOCP, hardwarecanucks. I've already linked charts. Where is the 290X that is 20% faster than Titan? 24/7 game stable as tested by a reputable tech website. Again, multiple GTX 780s have overclocked to 15-20% faster than Titan on EVERY review website. I've yet to see a 290X do this. Citations from actual tech review websites would be appreciated. And if one 290X has, it is the outlier and not the norm - most 290X cards are overclocking to a level FAR less than this.

Please don't link user overclocks. Stable overclocking isn't stable unless it is stable stable. Which is how reviewers test overclocks. Synthetics such as Valley and 3dMark are easy to complete with an unstable overclock. Heck, I did this constantly at OCN when I was gunning for the top 30 charts. 45 minutes of Crysis 3 on ultra isn't. In fact, Crysis 3 ultra is the overclock killer.

Now i'll go ahead and say this. It's not a completely fair contest yet. GTX 780 has an advantage because it has far more aftermarket designs. And aftermarket does OC better than reference. Maybe a future 290 card will overclock to the moon, but as far as current verified results from reviewer websites? I've yet to see the 290/X overclock to the same performance level. Once again please don't misunderstand this as a statement of the 290/290X cards being bad in aftermarket form. I think the aftermarket 290/X cards are great in aftermarket form. We just have a disagreement about overclocking headroom - my belief is that the GK110 has far more potential then Hawaii when both are overclocked. Basing this on the verified and published results of all reviewers across the net. That's all. I'm in complete agreement that the Tri-X 290 is an excellent card, so long as the price is correct (eg MSRP).

 

[guskline]

@ spidre

yes, many people do, i´m not saying right here and right now,
i actually think the level of irrational fanboyism is rather low and civilized in this tread
i´ve read much worse name calling and desperately defending the own "camp" as if life depended on it before and elsewhere
same thing for intel vs amd
ios vs win vs android
everybody vs apple
it can be amusing to some level, but soon gets tiresome
and many defend the stuff they bought, so thy don´t look the fool

but: performance isn´t everything, especially if it´s pretty equal for both products

that´s were personal like or dislike or even cosideration about looks do matter and tip the balance in one direction

this is still athread about guskline wanting to buy a product suited for his needs
not about: which card is objectively better
there is no real answer to that, not in this case, i suppose

exclusive features have to be considered, only guskline can do so
mantle + strength at high res. + price(though not at the moment) vs physx + easy downsampling + gsync

all of which features in favor of nvidia guskline can cover with his more than adequate 670sli rig

BertolomeoDiaz: I intend on replacing the gpus in rig 2 below (660s in sli) not the 670s in sli in rig 1.

Newegg lists the Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X for $499 (when in stock). I'm narrowed down to that or an EVAG GTX780 Classified for $559.

What about the head-to-head of those cards?

 

[Gloomy]

2close4me

I'd lean towards the 780, since Nvidia's perks are a known-quantity right now while AMD's just getting theirs off the ground.

 

[el etro]

Hmm. Coulda swore it was 4 + something, maybe that was GK104. In any case, I stand corrected. My mistake.

Power phases is not all the power system of the card.
But i still doubt about other things on the 290 cards. For me it looks like the PCB of the Hawaii cards is not well designed, it seems like Hawaiis PCB was a reuse/light upgrade of the 7970(or 280x) PCB. For me the PCB is holding Hawaii power on more aspects than in overclock department.
I believe that AMD engineering/marketing teams, knowing that Hawaii is paired with a weak PCB+Cooling and them will - in many situations - not perform at par to their counterparts(780 and Titan), used the strategy to price them closer to Nvidia's inferior products.
And i think too that something in engineering goes wrong in order to Hawaii GPU ends with a so low energy efficiency.

Nothing goes perfect on AMD's reign, as ever :biggrin:....

BertolomeoDiaz: I intend on replacing the gpus in rig 2 below (660s in sli) not the 670s in sli in rig 1.

Newegg lists the Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X for $499 (when in stock). I'm narrowed down to that or an EVAG GTX780 Classified for $559.

What about the head-to-head of those cards?

If you don't want to overclock and don't play below 1080p, go R9 290. If you care about power consumption, go for the GTX 780.

 

[JoeRambo]

I paid 400 dollars for my 290, so I'm not allowed to be sour over getting stomped @ OCing. It's in the contract

Is that a reference card for $400 or custom? If custom it is a great deal. Otherwise thermals and noise are just sad compared to what you get from custom B1 GTX780 that is near that pricing in Europe (I mean near 290, not near $400)...

Myself I thank AMD for Hawai chip everyday, they have enabled me to buy my Asus DC2 GTX780 for great price and to have 780TI levels of performance in silent package.
And I hope gifts from AMD will continue once we get 20nm stuff, hopefully they will keep on releasing their BIG design and keep both competitive and pricing pressure on Nvidia so we don't get gouged or Titaned anymore.

< my personal honest opinion below >
That put aside, unless you can magically get good price on R9 290, just go with GTX780 B1 and overclock it. 1200 is a sweet spot "quite some" ( <- being conservative here) cards can hit without much extra voltage. Power usage/thermals and noise will be great with custom cooling. You have a choice of going extreme with voltage and custom BIOS'es, but honestly extra 100mhz is ~7% extra performance for what is probably 100w spike in thermal load. Not a smart tradeoff for anyone who is not pursuing some stupid "need to beat 780ti and/or 290x OC" agenda.

So given that 290 and 780 are equal performers when oced, $50 is a difference too small for me to go AMD and skip custom Nvidia features and drivers I have never had problems with for years. it would need to be ~25% pricier for me to consider AMD, this is how much I am willing to overpay for Nvidia brand ( and thanks to AMD I don't have to anymore )

 

[ICDP]

Is that a reference card for $400 or custom? If custom it is a great deal. Otherwise thermals and noise are just sad compared to what you get from custom B1 GTX780 that is near that pricing in Europe (I mean near 290, not near $400)...

Myself I thank AMD for Hawai chip everyday, they have enabled me to buy my Asus DC2 GTX780 for great price and to have 780TI levels of performance in silent package.
And I hope gifts from AMD will continue once we get 20nm stuff, hopefully they will keep on releasing their BIG design and keep both competitive and pricing pressure on Nvidia so we don't get gouged or Titaned anymore.

< my personal honest opinion below >
That put aside, unless you can magically get good price on R9 290, just go with GTX780 B1 and overclock it. 1200 is a sweet spot "quite some" ( <- being conservative here) cards can hit without much extra voltage. Power usage/thermals and noise will be great with custom cooling. You have a choice of going extreme with voltage and custom BIOS'es, but honestly extra 100mhz is ~7% extra performance for what is probably 100w spike in thermal load. Not a smart tradeoff for anyone who is not pursuing some stupid "need to beat 780ti and/or 290x OC" agenda.

So given that 290 and 780 are equal performers when oced, $50 is a difference too small for me to go AMD and skip custom Nvidia features and drivers I have never had problems with for years. it would need to be ~25% pricier for me to consider AMD, this is how much I am willing to overpay for Nvidia brand ( and thanks to AMD I don't have to anymore )

The difference in price between an Asus DCII GTX780 and a reference R9 290 is ~£120. Or if you prefer a custom cooled R9 290 Tri-X it is ~£50. Not everywhere has price gouging like in the US. The reference R9 290X is around the same price as the GTX780 DCU II you mentioned above, considering this similar price the GTX780 DCU II is a far better purchase compared to reference R9 290X.

R9 290X custom cooled cards are astonishingly, shockingly overpriced right now here in the UK. Custom cooled versions are £500 which is atrocious value. The only place these custom cooled AIB R9 290Xs are available is at Overclockers and they can be price gouging bastards. For example R9 290X with import and VAT should be around £340, they are selling them (pre order) for £370. This morning on Overclockers R9 290X Tri-X was £489, they sold a few quite quickly and promptly added £10 to the price. IMHO before the end of January when other e-tailers have custom cooled R9 290 cards those prices should drop to realistic levels.

R9 290 has IMHO rendered R9 290X an overpriced joke.

 

[Silverforce11]

R9 290 has IMHO rendered R9 290X an overpriced joke.

R290 at MSRP renders everything above it a rip-off joke. The R290X is the worst because the delta is only 5%.. and lots of R290 can unlock, making that prospect even worse for the R290X.

780s are a good deal in the USA it seems, price is low enough, whereas over here and in the EU 780s have inflated prices.

 

[BertolomeoDiaz]

BertolomeoDiaz: I intend on replacing the gpus in rig 2 below (660s in sli) not the 670s in sli in rig 1.

Newegg lists the Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X for $499 (when in stock). I'm narrowed down to that or an EVAG GTX780 Classified for $559.

What about the head-to-head of those cards?

yea, i know,
that will leave you with one powerful gtx670sli rig with all the nvidia pluses

and one rig with eiter 780 or 290

as you will have two rigs, you may well go with amd for the other, that´s what i´m doing
but if you like nvidia better, then go nvidia
performance wise other than exclusive features i don´t know

i´d say both pretty equal, and the people who say one or the other is better are all pretty much convinced of the one they say is best, so the difference shouldn´t be much
i can´t say really, i don´t have any of the cards myself, yet, just repeating what the usual websites are telling, but those most often review one super card versus a plethora of reference adversaries
or different super cards for the same gpu

between those two cards, i´d say i´d go classified, if i didn´t have the 770sli
(i want one amd/amd rig, one intel/nvidia)
the tri-x also is the "normal" custom design, were it toxic or at least vapor-x it would be different
the classified is the best evga 780 there is, it´s more expensive, though, but that´s for the premium sparkle of a classified

"not in stock" is an annoying downer, too
i ordered the gibabyte windforce, even though i´d have preferred the sapphire by much, but that wasn´t available anywhere and i want to get the card during my christmas vacation, which will end on seventh of january

buy which ever brand or design or colour or list of exclusive features you like better

this german version of tom´s hardware sees the sapphire tri-x 290 @ 1000MHz (real boost) 12-13% in front of reference 780, whatever that means in actual boost
http://www.tomshardware.de/amd-radeon-r9-290-290x-test,testberichte-241458-5.html
more important: they say its very cool and quiet, (applies for the classified, too) the only downside they can find is its length
http://www.tomshardware.de/amd-radeon-r9-290-290x-test,testberichte-241458-6.html
http://www.tomshardware.de/amd-radeon-r9-290-290x-test,testberichte-241458-9.html

boost chart for ref 780 hovering around 950MHz from same webpage, that´s probably what they compared the 290 sapphire with
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-780-performance-review,3516-23.html

classified can probably do 1300+MHz of course and tri-x maybe 1200+ , but i don´t really know

edit: anandtech is getting 1125/1500MHz out of it with +50mv, power limit +20%
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7601/sapphire-radeon-r9-290-review-our-first-custom-cooled-290/5
(was probably posted in this thread before)

overall discussion wise,
evberybody, look at this,
never seen such a big collection of benches concerning recent top end cards and scaling with multi gpu
everything @ reference stock clock though, feel free to imagine/calculate performance at the clocks you use/are going to use
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=ko&to=de&a=http://udteam.tistory.com/585

 

[ICDP]

R290 at MSRP renders everything above it a rip-off joke. The R290X is the worst because the delta is only 5%.. and lots of R290 can unlock, making that prospect even worse for the R290X.

780s are a good deal in the USA it seems, price is low enough, whereas over here and in the EU 780s have inflated prices.

It seems unlock-able R9 290s are a rarity now. I got one for £300 including delivery and added an Arctic Hybrid coolers to it which cost £75.

A custom cooled R9 290X for far less than the current R9 290X prices.

 

[JoeRambo]

The difference in price between an Asus DCII GTX780 and a reference R9 290 is ~£120. Or if you prefer a custom cooled R9 290 Tri-X it is ~£50.

Not sure what percentage of total price that £50 is, but I suspect it is still within my "range" of tolerance for higher NV prices. And reference 290 is meh? I mean if you buy one and slap aftermarket cooler on it, you might as well buy GTX780 and go ballistic with custom BIOS etc. Aftermarket coolers are not exactly cheap and might void warranty and require special care with VRM etc.

 

[YBS1]

It's not battle field 4 on 64 player China rising with AA on max at ultra. I know that much

You are correct, I neither cherry picked nor intentionally choose the most crippling scenario. I originally was going to bench single player, but figured there would be moaning about that so I simply sorted multiplayer servers by lowest ping and joined the first one with over 30 players. A 36 player server in this case, about as random as I could make it. As I stated, Ultra preset, so that would of course mean 4X AA. Again with the moving goal posts though. You stated someone couldn't take advantage of a 120hz monitor except in a old game engine, I showed otherwise on what is argued to be the most cutting edge engine available. Do you seriously think BF4 on any map/conditions would really bring the pc listed in my sig to it's knees though?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Psh, is that it? I'm getting 140+ in Grim Dawn.

 

[Silverforce11]

Do you seriously think BF4 on any map/conditions would really bring the pc listed in my sig to it's knees though?

You have gone overkill for 1080p, if it was struggling I would be shocked! heh

 

[YBS1]

You have gone overkill for 1080p, if it was struggling I would be shocked! heh

Overkill is just enough kill IMO...

 

[desprado]

Overkill is just enough kill IMO...

wha u are running GTX 780 SLI on 1080p.U are not doing justice with awesome rig.

 

[blackened23]

wha u are running GTX 780 SLI on 1080p.U are not doing justice with awesome rig.

If he's at 60hz i'd agree. IF he's using lightboost 144hz or 3d Vision, I wouldn't agree. Games that are easily maxed out at 60 fps solid, aren't 120 fps solid even at 1080p. Which is what you want with lightboost.

Heck for 3d vision, you need as much power as you can throw at it.

 

[YBS1]

wha u are running GTX 780 SLI on 1080p.U are not doing justice with awesome rig.

Well to be honest, my original intention was to get two more of these 27" Asus 120Hz monitors for surround, but after receiving the first one, reality set in and I realized it would be a bit too sprawling across the desk for practical use. That in addition to the number of games that don't really support it all that well made me put that on the backburner.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Not worth it imo, did it myself with 470 SLI and in most games you're just spending all that cash and power on walls.

 

[Janooo]

BertolomeoDiaz: I intend on replacing the gpus in rig 2 below (660s in sli) not the 670s in sli in rig 1.

Newegg lists the Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X for $499 (when in stock). I'm narrowed down to that or an EVAG GTX780 Classified for $559.

What about the head-to-head of those cards?

If Mantle is what they say it is then no contest.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

If Mantle is what they say it is then no contest.

Yeah, if Mantle is what the forum took and ran with and hyped up well beyond reason and reality like bulldozer it will be no contest.


Glide saved 3DFX which had the dedicated PC market on lock.

 

[desprado]

If he's at 60hz i'd agree. IF he's using lightboost 144hz or 3d Vision, I wouldn't agree. Games that are easily maxed out at 60 fps solid, aren't 120 fps solid even at 1080p. Which is what you want with lightboost.

Heck for 3d vision, you need as much power as you can throw at it.

Sorry mods for posting of the topic.

But can u explain a bit what is this Lightboost?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Sorry mods for posting of the topic.

But can u explain a bit what is this Lightboost?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2330173

 

[Janooo]

Yeah, if Mantle is what the forum took and ran with and hyped up well beyond reason and reality like bulldozer it will be no contest.


Glide saved 3DFX which had the dedicated PC market on lock.

What is your point?

 

[blackened23]

What is your point?

AMD's marketing tells you one thing, reality is another thing. This has happened time and time and time and time again. Particularly with BD.

 

[Elfear]

Do you have citations from actual reviewer websites substantiating this? I have not seen any 290X cards overclock to a level of being 20% faster than Titan. While we know the GTX 780 has. In fact, 15-20% faster than Titan is the norm for overclocked aftermarket GTX 780 cards. I've linked several examples of such.

Again, multiple GTX 780s have overclocked to 15-20% faster than Titan on EVERY review website.

Well let's look at some results of oced aftermarket 780's in comparison to Titan. First, I think we can agree based on multiple review sites that the Titan is generally about 9-10% faster than the reference 780.

TechPowerUP - 9.2% faster (1600p)
Computer Base - 8% faster (1600p)
Hardware Canucks - 9.8% faster
Hardware France - 7.7% faster (1440p)
Anandtech - 10% faster

Reviews of various aftermarket 780's

Guru3D : Oced 780 Classified (1293/1710) - Average of 21% faster across three games than reference 780 or 11% faster than Titan.
Anandtech: Oced 780 Superclocked ACX (1215/1700) - Average of 5.5% faster than Titan across 5 games
Hardware Canucks: Oced 780 SC ACX (1183/1722) - Average of 5.8% faster across two games
Tech Buyers Guru: Oced 780 SC ACX (1215/1700) - Average of 20% faster than reference 780 or 10% faster than Titan.
Guru3D : Oced 780 Windforce (1202/1693) - Average of 4% faster than Titan across 3 games.
Hardware Canucks: Oced 780 Windforce (1153/1714) - Average of 3.5% faster across 2 games.
Guru3D : Oced Asus 780 Poseidon (1241/1652) - Average of 12% faster than Titan across 3 benches.
PC Max: Oced 780 DC II (1205/1590) - Average of 7% faster than Titan across 3 benches
Xbit Labs: Oced 780 HerculeZ X3 (1150/1790) - They actually had results for 6 different overclocked 780s. The fastest out-of-the-box was the Hercules. It was 1% slower than the Titan on average. All 6 780's overclocked to 1124-1163Mhz which is only about 5% faster than stock in the case of the HerculeZ. Even with memory overclocks in the 10-15% range, it's very doubtful any of the cards are more than 5% faster than the Titan.
Hardware Overclock: Oced Palit 780 Super Jetstream (~1240/1624) - Average of 11% faster than Titan across 3 games.
Hardware Canucks: Oced 780 Lightning (1280/1612) - Average of 13.7% faster than Titan across 2 games.
Hardware Canucks: Oced 780 Classified (1320/1856) - Average of 15% faster than Titan across 2 games.
Guru3D : Oced 780 Lightning (1333/1710) - Average of 11% faster than Titan across 3 games.
Hardware Canucks: Oced 780 DC II (1213/1752) - Average of 8.1% faster than Titan across 2 games.
TechPowerUP: Six oced aftermarket 780s - The average overclock of the six aftermarket 780's was ~1200Mhz.

HardOCP: Oced 780 HoF (1300/1575) - Average of 21% faster than Titan across 4 games

[H]'s review is an outlier amongst all the other reviews above. An oced aftermarket 780 is around 8-9% faster than Titan on average.



From the relatively few 290X reviews around

Hardwareluxx: Oced 290X DC II (1195/1545) - Average of 22% faster than Titan across 3 games.
ComputerBase: 290X DC II and Gigabyte (1000-1050/1250-1350) - Both cards at stock clocks on average are 14.8% faster than the Titan across 5 games.
Hardware Canucks: Oced 290X DC II (1195/1504) - Average of 22.8% faster than Titan across 2 games.
Guru3D : Oced 290X DC II (1175/1546) - Average of 16% faster than Titan across 3 games.

I'd say the results are looking more favorable on the aftermarket 290X's than the 780's so far.