Racism- Sotomoyor

[n yusef]

I think this thread demonstrates that identity informs ideology. How many people of color deny the existence of systemic racism and its counterpart, white privilege? How many white people do the same? How many men deny the prevalence of sexism compared to women?

How can one claim to be capable of understanding the positions of entire groups of people, while rejecting the existence or prevalence of systems that are an obvious aspect of their realities? Racism and sexism pervade our society and indeed, this message board. Every other post I read is about how emotional and irrational women are, or how illegal Mexicans (all Latinos are assumed to be Mexican) are taking your jobs and stealing your healthcare. If I showed these posts to any women or people of color I know, they would see the same thing. Yet, many white men here see no sexism or racism.

There is an obvious disconnect, and that is precisely why the SCOTUS--and other political positions and institutions--needs to be diverse.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's awfully white of you to say. :roll:

Originally posted by: charrison
Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

What a cop-out. "Let's just give up, because there's nothing we can do." :thumbsdown:

 

[TechAZ]

It's not racism if it's evil ignorant whitey as the target.

We need re-education camps and automatic minority promotions in every college/university, government, and private sector field because evil whitey has a stranglehold on people's lives and forces unresponsible behaviors!

/sarcasm

And to address the OP. Yes, her comments are prejudicial and if there was ever a (R) that said a comment like that, it would be on every website and news agency in the US painting that person as a bigot.

Nobody has the intellectual honesty to say "yes, if it was a white person and the word "latina" was changed to "white" it would definitely be racist...no matter what the context. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't expect a high % of liberals on P&N to have that kind of honesty (not a R v D comment, many R's get caught up the same way).....this is a game of intellectual superiority and moral highground where saying anything bad about your political leanings is equal to weakness.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mattpegher
Don't get me wrong, I think that she will make a fine cheif justice and most of her statements suggest that she will make judgments based on law not politics. That said, I am getting a bit irritated at the openly racist statement coming out of some folks lately. She states that her experience as a latino female would lead to wiser choices than that of a white male. Flip those demographics and every one would be on you like flies on dung.

Why is it acceptable to assert that as a white male, I am privileged and culturally biased. I have had no special advantages. I went to public school in a mixed race suburb. I worked my way through school. Neither, I or any of my ancestors ever owned a slave.

Reverse racism is just as bad as racism.

Well first of all if you read her statement in context it is talking about the value of experience, not how whitey sucks.

Second of all, you most certainly have had special advantages for being white, you just haven't been aware of it. Study after study shows that there are explicit, institutional advantages for being white. They aren't your fault, but you should be aware of them.

Reminds me of my first wife. She was rejected for entrance into a particular Masters degree program, and the counsellor suggested she re-submit her app to reflect she is hispanic (mother is Portugese), so she did. She was accepted.

Many advantages to being white I guess, huh?

Hmm I call shens on that. There are very few people who seek entrance in Masters degree programs. I have never heard of anyone being denied then accepted when they changed their race. That is a bunch of baloney.

 

[ScottyB]

I have a Spanish name. I wonder if I have my resume rejected because of that at times? I did once sign up at an apartment where they rent a room and assign roommates. They told me they found a perfect match. I moved in and the roommate was a super Christian Conservative with nothing in common with me as a Liberal Atheist expect he was Mexican. :-(

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's awfully white of you to say. :roll:

Originally posted by: charrison
Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

What a cop-out. "Let's just give up, because there's nothing we can do." :thumbsdown:

Actually, the more I think about it, the more Charrison's responses in this thread really prove Sotomayor's point. Which is this: if I was setting out to learn about what it's like to suffer discrimination, racism and bigotry in America, I certainly wouldn't go ask some white guy.

 

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's awfully white of you to say. :roll:

Originally posted by: charrison
Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

What a cop-out. "Let's just give up, because there's nothing we can do." :thumbsdown:

Actually, the more I think about it, the more Charrison's responses in this thread really prove Sotomayor's point. Which is this: if I was setting out to learn about what it's like to suffer discrimination, racism and bigotry in America, I certainly wouldn't go ask some white guy.

The argument is not does racism exist but that no-one is immune from it. A latina female and a black male each have their own prejudices and racially biased positions, and not to realize this only serves to propagate racism.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's awfully white of you to say. :roll:

IF you stay out of trouble, get educated, have good credit, it aint gonna matter what color you are.

Originally posted by: charrison
Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

What a cop-out. "Let's just give up, because there's nothing we can do." :thumbsdown:

I did not say we should not try, I am just saying there will always be stupid people that have some sort of bias.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's awfully white of you to say. :roll:

Originally posted by: charrison
Well like I said there may be some bias, but not enough to really matter. Dont commit crime and you wont get any jail time. Have good credit and you will find someone to get loan from. There is always going to bias and racism no matter what we do.

What a cop-out. "Let's just give up, because there's nothing we can do." :thumbsdown:

Actually, the more I think about it, the more Charrison's responses in this thread really prove Sotomayor's point. Which is this: if I was setting out to learn about what it's like to suffer discrimination, racism and bigotry in America, I certainly wouldn't go ask some white guy.

I am willing to bet that I am far more colorblind than any of the libs on this forum. Racism is largely dead in this country and all people should be treated fairly. Lets not assume one is better than another for any skin deep reason.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: charrison

I am not saying that these things do not exist, but it is not on large enough scale to make real difference in life outcomes.

That's pretty easy to say when you're on the side that benefits from this discrimination. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that black people would tend to disagree.

There are welcome to disagree, but I am not where I am in life because of any kind of white privilege.

 

[BenSkywalker]

You don't think there's an inherent advantage in the fact that kids born into families with money to send them to college and live in areas with good schools are overwhelmingly white, while kids born into poor families are overwhelmingly black?

The majority of poor people in this country are white, it isn't even close.

Whites receive preferential treatment in employment.

From that laughable, at best, study-

The catch was that the authors manipulated the perception of race via the name of each applicant, with comparable credentials for each racial group.

And what were those modifications? As a study this one is discounted instantly by very clear dishonest methods from the outset.

Whites receive preferential treatment when searching for housing.

Nothing in that 'study' indicates anything resembling that, minorities have lower satisfaction when dealing with metropolitan real estate agencies is closer to the truth.

Blacks are more likely than whites to be killed by police, even in identical circumstances.

Did you read that link, at all? Actually, I guess what I should say here is you must have linked the wrong thing altogether. That article dealt with having random people playing a videogame, not a study about police shooting other people.

Blacks get stiffer drug penalties for the same crime

On the other hand-

? For all but the most severe offenses, whites were most likely to be convicted, but least likely to be sentenced to prison.

From the same article you linked. Whites are the most likely to get convicted. Hard core institutional racism right there.

Whites are only 1/3rd as likely to be searched by the police when stopped.

I guess that is the most accurate you linked, the others to be as kind as possible are laughable, although that completely ignores where they were pulled over and why. I would wager that you would get a far larger spread if you seperated it out by level of wealth then skin color.

 

[Red Dawn]

It's much ado about nothing and the fact that Butterbaugh and the Grinch are calling her a racist makes the uproar even more ridiculous but I hope they keep it up, it makes them look even more like fuck heads to the American Public, Women and Hispanics and reflects badly on the Republican Party.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: n yusef
Racism and sexism pervade our society and indeed, this message board. Every other post I read is about how emotional and irrational women are, or how illegal Mexicans (all Latinos are assumed to be Mexican) are taking your jobs and stealing your healthcare. Yet, many white men here see no sexism or racism.

Many white men do see sexism and racism, they just don't bring up in public. Typically white men can't stand up for themselves or their race, and cower to someone calling them a "bigot." They just avoid the can of worms or the heat in the kitchen. I don't.

I work in a field where I can see who is stealing my healthcare. And I'm sorry to say, illegal mexicans are stealing our healthcare. I work in bill collections. I can give you statistics from a major hostpital in the Minneapolis area, which has a high hispanic and black demographic. Luckily their files include ethnic origin, and SSN# I can tell you the % of minorities vs whites who pay their bills, and which % of hispanics with no SSN are in bill collections. Over 80% of collections is minorities, and over 50% is mexicans. 50% of them have no SSN. To find Juan Gonzalez with no SSN and to collect money from him just isn't going to happen.

We even joke about doing collections for this hospital in my workplace, saying the demographics there are horrible and they have no chance in collecting money. Then they compare to a white area, such as Duluth, and compare to a hospital there, and its much easier to collect.

Is that racism on my part, my companies part, or just a fact? I'm sorry to say, minorities don't pay.

What's ironic though, the areas which have no ability to collect also have the highest paying insurance. That hospital in Minneapolis, to collect from insurance is way more profitable than collecting from the Duluth hospital. In the end we collect about the same...

Why is that? Why do benefits/social programs pay more for minorities, and white people have to pay on their own (and usually do compared to other races)?

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: n yusef
Racism and sexism pervade our society and indeed, this message board. Every other post I read is about how emotional and irrational women are, or how illegal Mexicans (all Latinos are assumed to be Mexican) are taking your jobs and stealing your healthcare. Yet, many white men here see no sexism or racism.

Many white men do see sexism and racism, they just don't bring up in public. Typically white men can't stand up for themselves or their race, and cower to someone calling them a "bigot." They just avoid the can of worms or the heat in the kitchen. I don't.

I work in a field where I can see who is stealing my healthcare. And I'm sorry to say, illegal mexicans are stealing our healthcare. I work in bill collections. I can give you statistics from a major hostpital in the Minneapolis area, which has a high hispanic and black demographic. Luckily their files include ethnic origin, and SSN# I can tell you the % of minorities vs whites who pay their bills, and which % of hispanics with no SSN are in bill collections. Over 80% of collections is minorities, and over 50% is mexicans. 50% of them have no SSN. To find Juan Gonzalez with no SSN and to collect money from him just isn't going to happen.

We even joke about doing collections for this hospital in my workplace, saying the demographics there are horrible and they have no chance in collecting money. Then they compare to a white area, such as Duluth, and compare to a hospital there, and its much easier to collect.

Is that racism on my part, my companies part, or just a fact? I'm sorry to say, minorities don't pay.

What's ironic though, the areas which have no ability to collect also have the highest paying insurance. That hospital in Minneapolis, to collect from insurance is way more profitable than collecting from the Duluth hospital. In the end we collect about the same...

Why is that? Why do benefits/social programs pay more for minorities, and white people have to pay on their own (and usually do compared to other races)?

I wrote an entire post on a broad thesis and you responded to a small segment of one subpoint. I won't derail this thread with a discussion of healthcare or undocumented immigrants.

 

[mattpegher]

I don't think that I would refer to her as a racist, just that what constitutes a racist statement seems to depend on who says it, which is problematic. I happen to be a Democrat but I think this kind of racial hypocracy hurts our party and the nation as a whole.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

-cut-

Speaking of actually reading studies, did you? Where to start with you...

1.) If you want to discount the employment study, that's fine. You're going to have to explain yourself though. What were the flaws in their methodology? What would you do to change it for a more accurate result? How were their methods 'very clearly dishonest'? It passed review just fine for one of the most prestigious organizations for economic research on the planet, so please enlighten us. (might want to CC your post to the NBER as well, as I'm sure they would like to know they are publishing laughable research.)

2.) You obviously didn't read the housing study either. All of the people participating in the study were volunteers with fictitious backgrounds, but whites were treated better. (you could even say preferentially). Are you attempting to argue that minorities have different and much higher standards for satisfaction in real estate transactions than whites? If so, what are you basing this on?

3.) People in general are more likely to shoot black people than white people, this has been a problem with police officers for quite awhile now. While the researchers admit that it is possible police officers would behave differently I can find no evidence to suggest that this should be so.

4.) I like how you cherry pick a single statistic from a group of information that overwhelmingly shows racial discrimination and decide that a single outlier somehow changes this conclusion? Blacks account for 35 percent of drug arrests, but 74% of people sentenced to prison for it. Nah, no institutional racism there!

Your disagreements with the studies appear to basically be "Well, I think it's crap" without any supporting evidence for why, along with a general ignorance that comes from just skimming the abstract without actually spending the time to read it.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: n yusef
Racism and sexism pervade our society and indeed, this message board. Every other post I read is about how emotional and irrational women are, or how illegal Mexicans (all Latinos are assumed to be Mexican) are taking your jobs and stealing your healthcare. Yet, many white men here see no sexism or racism.

Many white men do see sexism and racism, they just don't bring up in public. Typically white men can't stand up for themselves or their race, and cower to someone calling them a "bigot." They just avoid the can of worms or the heat in the kitchen. I don't.

No, white men can stad up against racism and sexism, whether against others or themselves, and they can defend their own race and gender.

What they can't do is to *be* racist and sexist under the guise of 'defending their own race and gender', in other words they can't be bigots, and demand not to be called bigots.

I understand that some people love to say they want to 'defend marriage' by denying gays equal rights, all the while whining that they don't want to be called bigots for doing so.

I work in a field where I can see who is stealing my healthcare. And I'm sorry to say, illegal mexicans are stealing our healthcare. I work in bill collections. I can give you statistics from a major hostpital in the Minneapolis area, which has a high hispanic and black demographic. Luckily their files include ethnic origin, and SSN# I can tell you the % of minorities vs whites who pay their bills, and which % of hispanics with no SSN are in bill collections. Over 80% of collections is minorities, and over 50% is mexicans. 50% of them have no SSN. To find Juan Gonzalez with no SSN and to collect money from him just isn't going to happen.

We even joke about doing collections for this hospital in my workplace, saying the demographics there are horrible and they have no chance in collecting money. Then they compare to a white area, such as Duluth, and compare to a hospital there, and its much easier to collect.

Is that racism on my part, my companies part, or just a fact? I'm sorry to say, minorities don't pay.

I don't really disagree with anything you said. What I *do* notice is the way that you see the group who is by far the most advantaged, the most wealthy, as the 'victim'.

You wouldn't trade places for all the tea in China with one of the poor Mexicans, illegal or legal, who are far more impoverished than you are, but you are 'the victim'.

Let's not waste the time as you might want to react with how the inequities are so fair as you try to defend your advantage - it's nonsense and ugly.

That's a form of racism, when you look at the poor hordes of another race and see not opportunity for improvement and equality, but lesser people who should be poor.

What's ironic though, the areas which have no ability to collect also have the highest paying insurance. That hospital in Minneapolis, to collect from insurance is way more profitable than collecting from the Duluth hospital. In the end we collect about the same...

Why is that? Why do benefits/social programs pay more for minorities, and white people have to pay on their own (and usually do compared to other races)?

Let's compare the incomes of whites and minorities with the payment rates of whites and minorities. Hint: when the incomes are equal, you will see the payment rates more equal.

This isn't even getting into the productivity side of the minorities who provide so much in labor for low wages, illegals who have social security taxes paid in that are never collected.

 

[BenSkywalker]

1.) If you want to discount the employment study, that's fine. You're going to have to explain yourself though.

They changed background data. They willingly corrupted a completely possible direct comparison by changing unnecessary variables to the question at hand.

How were their methods 'very clearly dishonest'?

Nothing stopped them from using identical qualifications with only the names being different outside of a political motivation.

It passed review just fine for one of the most prestigious organizations for economic research on the planet

You mean political idealogical organization, not economic. The study was also exceptionaly narrow in scope even given its's profoundly flawed methodology.

2.) You obviously didn't read the housing study either. All of the people participating in the study were volunteers with fictitious backgrounds, but whites were treated better. (you could even say preferentially). Are you attempting to argue that minorities have different and much higher standards for satisfaction in real estate transactions than whites? If so, what are you basing this on?

I did read the housing study- no quantification was placed on standards, no evidence to disparity in services given, nothing except level of satisfaction based on the perception of treatment. Given that the people participated looking for racial inequality, having volunteers carrying out the study with not scientific method provided for the results by default makes the study completely invalid before seeing any results.

3.) People in general are more likely to shoot black people than white people

Ranomly selected people were more likely to in a video game- try and focus on the reality instead of reaching a rather staggering degree.

While the researchers admit that it is possible police officers would behave differently I can find no evidence to suggest that this should be so.

In a video game? Honestly, I'm far more likely to shoot green people in a game then I am black, just I have been trained that black people are often allies, while green people are almost never on the same side. What exactly does that prove in the least? In a video game setting randomly selected people in a very narrow segment of hand chosen areas showed a disparity- how much of one would help a lot in narrowing down how those particular people in those very narrow areas responded to racial differences in a video game where you were supposed to shoot people.

I like how you cherry pick a single statistic from a group of information that overwhelmingly shows racial discrimination and decide that a single outlier somehow changes this conclusion? Blacks account for 35 percent of drug arrests, but 74% of people sentenced to prison for it. Nah, no institutional racism there!

What was the economic breakdown? Hard core racists, which you very clearly are(I would reccomend people look the word up before displaying ignorance ), may see things entirely based on race, but what was the comparitive breakdown of socio economic standings amongst those statistics? A guilty plee counts as a conviction, and furthermore pleading to a drug case will normally result in minimal if any jail time. Again, the racial differences in themselves don't mean a whole lot without corresponding numbers comparing the economic levels, but it wouldn't shock me if superior legal advice resulted in more people of a certain skin tone taking a plea.

Your disagreements with the studies appear to basically be "Well, I think it's crap" without any supporting evidence for why, along with a general ignorance that comes from just skimming the abstract without actually spending the time to read it.

I'm quite familiar with sound research methodology and economic trends are what I handle for a living. Political groups using methodology that would be laughed out of any respectable High School are certainly not something I would be relying on to back my discourses.

 

[Red Dawn]

You know fat white guys with Aspergers syndrome is one of the fastest growing minorities in this country and by far the majority of members in this and other Anandtech Forums.They also tend to be Republicans and resent other minorities.

 

[Shuxclams]

Would a woman have a different reaction to womens issues then men? Yes - I suggest that would be true, is that bad? No, it brings a specific perspective that is outside the range of my ability. Does being Black, Asian or Latino in a predominantly White society bring a unique perspective, Yes and that IS a good thing. I wouldn't be too worried about a Latina taking away your rights or undoing 233 years of Constitutional Law based on an excerpt thrown about by the right wing fear machine.


SHUX

 

[BenSkywalker]

They also tend to be Republicans and resent other minorities.

DFLs/Fundies are pretty much the only people that see much of a difference between Democratic and Republican candidates. IME Apergers don't tend to be so ignorant as to lock themselves down to one of the two major political parties.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I don't think that I would refer to her as a racist, just that what constitutes a racist statement seems to depend on who says it, which is problematic. I happen to be a Democrat but I think this kind of racial hypocracy hurts our party and the nation as a whole.

:thumbsup: ... for the most part.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

They also tend to be Republicans and resent other minorities.

DFLs/Fundies are pretty much the only people that see much of a difference between Democratic and Republican candidates. IME Apergers don't tend to be so ignorant as to lock themselves down to one of the two major political parties.

You're probably right and I'm wrong.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: newnameman

Originally posted by: OrByte
wait wait... so all of the hoopla over her comment about her being a Latina judge she was at a CONFERENCE about being a LATIN Judge at the time!?!??!

holy crap.

here is another of her comments at the same conference:

America has a deeply confused image of itself that is in perpetual tension. We are a nation that takes pride in our ethnic diversity, recognizing its importance in shaping our society and in adding richness to its existence. Yet, we simultaneously insist that we can and must function and live in a race and color-blind way that ignore these very differences that in other contexts we laud. That tension between "the melting pot and the salad bowl" -- a recently popular metaphor used to described New York's diversity - is being hotly debated today in national discussions about affirmative action. Many of us struggle with this tension and attempt to maintain and promote our cultural and ethnic identities in a society that is often ambivalent about how to deal with its differences. In this time of great debate we must remember that it is not political struggles that create a Latino or Latina identity. I became a Latina by the way I love and the way I live my life. My family showed me by their example how wonderful and vibrant life is and how wonderful and magical it is to have a Latina soul. They taught me to love being a Puertorriqueña and to love America and value its lesson that great things could be achieved if one works hard for it. But achieving success here is no easy accomplishment for Latinos or Latinas, and although that struggle did not and does not create a Latina identity, it does inspire how I live my life.

So...I guess since she loves being a Latina she is racist because she....loves being Latina?!

you people that think she is racist for her comments need to grow the fvck up.

So if John Roberts or Sam Alito had said "I would hope that a wise white man with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion as a judge than a Latina women who hasn't lived that life" you wouldn't have had any problem with that?

I would agree with him.

A wise white man with the richness of his experience would make a better decision maker than anyone that hasn't lived that life.

Meaning: Someone not wise and with no richness in his or her experiences. Whether that be a latina woman or a black man or whatever.

Maybe you (And others that are feigning outrage) weren't REALLY reading the quoted comment eh?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: mattpegher

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am not saying that racism doesnot exist, but lets not deny that racist statements can be said about any race, gender or sexual orientation and by any race, gender or sexual orientation.

I work with all races, and genders, and I find that everyone is unique. I don not believe that everyone sees the world as I do, but I wish that they did.

I can agree with that

so show me how the judges comments are racist.

Exactly how does she say she hates whitey?

I may be taking the statement out of context. Unfortunately, only heard it second hand on NPR. I think she simply didnot see her words as racist, my contention is that if she had reversed the demographics it would be considered so.

The statement is as follows however, "Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life." This is a poor choice of words and I believe tailored to the audience, and therefore more political than legal. Something I hope she is not.

I believe you are right. Tailored to the audience...as well as tailored to the event. It was an event about the Latino race....

I don't see how that makes the statement political. care to explain?