Radeon 9600XT or Geforce FX 5900?

vicwang

Member
Oct 5, 2000
181
0
71
I'm trying to decide between these two cards.

I found the FX 5900 here for $161:

Geforce FX 5900

They also have the Radeon 9600XT here for the same price:

Radeon 9600XT

From the benchmarks I've seen, the 5900 looks to be quite a bit faster with current games. But in Half Life 2 benchmarks, the Radeon is much faster. What would you guys get considering they're the same price?

Speaking of which, does anyone know if ALL retail 9600XT's come with the HL2 certificate? At lots of sites, when you pull up the product description it doesn't say anything about HL2. But according to the ATI web site, all 9600XT's are supposed to have it.
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
the 5900 is definitely the better choice: 256-bit pipelines vs. 128-bit, faster GPU, etc.

and which HL2 benches are you talking about? i haven't seen any benches for a very very long time.
 

vicwang

Member
Oct 5, 2000
181
0
71
"and which HL2 benches are you talking about? i haven't seen any benches for a very very long time."

These are the one I was referring to, from back in September. Pretty huge lead for the Radeons.

HL2 Benchmarks

If anyone is aware of newer benchmarks which suggest differently, please let me know.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
if anyone seriously thinks the 9600XT is the better buy, they need their balls cut off
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
dude, i hope you are joking about those benchmarks. there were many, many, many reasons for those benchmark results:

1) ATi paid valve to 'fabricate' its data
2) The code did not use the nvidia compiler, essentially running unoptimized for the Nvidia chipsets while running highly optimized for the ATi chipsets
3) The benchmarks were measured before nvidia released its DirectX 9.0 optimizations.


dude, look at DX9 benchmarks today (which is what HL2 is running) and you will see that nvidia is actually beating ATi in many tests.
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
nVidia has been circulating its Det50 driver to analysts in hopes that we would use it for our Half-Life 2 benchmarking. The driver contains application-specific optimizations that will likely improve nVidia's overall performance picture, however Valve's Gabe Newell expressed concerns that some of nVidia's optimizations may go too far. Doug Lombardi of Valve has explicitly asked that beta versions of the Det50 drivers not be used for benchmarking.


in other words, Valve refused to use nvidia's optimized drivers to bench HL2, while there are no other benches for HL2 using the new nvidia drivers. hmmmm... ATi had no part in this: they only bundled HL2 with all their new cards.
 

vicwang

Member
Oct 5, 2000
181
0
71
2) The code did not use the nvidia compiler, essentially running unoptimized for the Nvidia chipsets while running highly optimized for the ATi chipsets
3) The benchmarks were measured before nvidia released its DirectX 9.0 optimizations.
Interesting, thanks for the info...

So does the 9600XT have any substantial advantages over the 5900? Other than the HL2 certificate which I'm hearing might not even be usable until Fall 2004?
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
the 9600XT has NO advantages over the 5900 except for the HL2 certificate. and when is HL2 coming out? nobody knows....


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
5900 is the better buy.

9600XT is just outclassed by that card and HL2 will probably be out next fall. That is plenty of time for Nvidia to hold Valves hand in coding for their GPU.

 

ErikS

Senior member
Oct 12, 1999
366
0
0
But in Half Life 2 benchmarks, the Radeon is much faster
What difference could it possibly make? You'll most likely be too old & feeble to play games by the time HL2 is released in September of 2099
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
HL2 is released in September of 2099

lol! I hope my great grand kids will enjoy the game with their NV650s or R7890s using DXNext 80

 

vicwang

Member
Oct 5, 2000
181
0
71
Correction: I just emailed the vendor above, and the 5900 they carry does not include Call of Duty.
 

ErikS

Senior member
Oct 12, 1999
366
0
0
lol! I hope my great grand kids will enjoy the game with their NV650s or R7890s using DXNext 80



Could be like me, I figure to be worm food by the time HL2 comes out - lol.
 

modedepe

Diamond Member
May 11, 2003
3,474
0
0
Although the 5900 won't perform as well in hl2 as would be expected, it still should perform roughly the same as the 9600xt. In pretty much all other games out now the 5900 will be much faster. The 5900 is the clear choice.
 

Megatomic

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
20,128
6
81
Apparently he/she/it wasn't brave enough to let us know who they are. Sometimes brand loyalty defies all logic.
 

Blastman

Golden Member
Oct 21, 1999
1,758
0
76
Originally posted by: g3pro
dude, i hope you are joking about those benchmarks. there were many, many, many reasons for those benchmark results:

1) ATi paid valve to 'fabricate' its data
2) The code did not use the nvidia compiler, essentially running unoptimized for the Nvidia chipsets while running highly optimized for the ATi chipsets
3) The benchmarks were measured before nvidia released its DirectX 9.0 optimizations.
The first 2 points are nonsense. There is no evidence the code was highly optimized for ATI. In fact it was optimized more for the NV cards.

These HL2 benches were run with the 52.16 drivers (unified compiler) with the ATI cards at 16AF and the NV cards at 8AF ? #1 ? ?#2? Essentially no difference from what we saw in the earlier benches.

digitlife digest


Edit: Actually, the NV scores definitely look somewhat improved from the Tech-report HL2 scores.

 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Thank you for posting that, as you saved me the trouble of digging up the links. Suggesting that Valve's numbers are totally bogus is preposterous.

At the same price, the 9600XT is a worse choice, because the 5900's higher speed and extra pipes make up for its lousy DX9 performance, and it's faster in DX8 by a good margin. However, I'm not sure how long these cards will be available at $160 -- I figured NVIDIA was probably on the cusp of losing money with 5900NUs selling at $180-200!
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Actually it sounds like they were using an old build that was from last may and didnt even have any optimizations in for the FX cards. Also there was an ATI developers name all over the code what was stolen.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Vague rumors don't make for much of a credible accusation, especially when digit-life's numbers using recent NVIDIA drivers show the same thing -- the FX-series cards are just not very good at DX9 pixel shaders relative to ATI.

Maybe you're instead suggesting that Valve purposefully crippled NVIDIA performance in their benchmarks?
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
what's pretty funny to all this is nvidia's response to the HL2 benches:

During the entire development of Half Life 2, NVIDIA has had close technical contact with Valve regarding the game. However, Valve has not made us aware of the issues Gabe discussed.

We're confused as to why Valve chose to use Release. 45 (Rel. 45) - because up to two weeks prior to the Shader Day we had been working closely with Valve to ensure that Release 50 (Rel. 50) provides the best experience possible on NVIDIA hardware.

Regarding the Half Life2 performance numbers that were published on the web, we believe these performance numbers are invalid because they do not use our Rel. 50 drivers. Engineering efforts on our Rel. 45 drivers stopped months ago in anticipation of Rel. 50. NVIDIA's optimizations for Half-Life 2 and other new games are included in our Rel.50 drivers - which reviewers currently have a beta version of today. Rel. 50 is the best driver we've ever built - it includes significant optimizations for the highly-programmable GeForce FX architecture and includes feature and performance benefits for over 100 million NVIDIA GPU customers.

Pending detailed information from Valve, we are unaware of any issues with Rel. 50 and the drop of Half-Life 2 that we have. The drop of Half-Life 2 that we currently have is more than 2 weeks old. It is not a cheat or an over optimization. Our current drop of Half-Life 2 is more than 2 weeks old. NVIDIA's Rel. 50 driver will be public before the game is available. Since we know that obtaining the best pixel shader performance from the GeForce FX GPUs currently requires some specialized work, our developer technology team works very closely with game developers. Part of this is understanding that in many cases promoting PS 1.4 (DirectX 8) to PS 2.0 (DirectX 9) provides no image quality benefit. Sometimes this involves converting 32-bit floating point precision shader operations into 16-bit floating point precision shaders in order to obtain the performance benefit of this mode with no image quality degradation. Our goal is to provide our consumers the best experience possible, and that means games must both look and run great.

The optimal code path for ATI and NVIDIA GPUs is different - so trying to test them with the same code path will always disadvantage one or the other. The default settings for each game have been chosen by both the developers and NVIDIA in order to produce the best results for our consumers.

In addition to the developer efforts, our driver team has developed a next-generation automatic shader optimizer that vastly improves GeForce FX pixel shader performance across the board. The fruits of these efforts will be seen in our Rel.50 driver release. Many other improvements have also been included in Rel.50, and these were all created either in response to, or in anticipation of the first wave of shipping DirectX 9 titles, such as Half-Life 2.

We are committed to working with Gabe to fully understand.


Gabe chose not to tell nvidia that they didn't optomize for their cards so that they get endorsed by ATi??? i tell you, i am shocked!
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
5900
/me wishes he could make himself buy an NVidia-based product
 

titanmiller

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2003
2,123
2
81
Thats a darn good price for a 5900! Especially if it includes CoD. If I didnt already have one I would snap that up instantly.
 
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