Radeon 9800Pro overclocking

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Hi! I have a Connect3D 9800Pro 128MB on its way. This is my first ATI card, and I only have experience of overclocking older nVidia cards. Actually I have an old GF2MX in my computer now, so I thought it was time to upgrade so I could join some FarCry action

Anyway, I would really need some help on what tools I need to overclock. I guess there's no "coolbits" (or similar) reg hack to enable overclocking options in the driver menus for ATI?.

Also, I would like to know what overclocking goal I should have. Should I try for XT speeds, or is that a bit too optimistic? Is this card memory bandwidth or GPU limited? That is, should I overclock the memory or GPU first, and then up the other as high as I can?

At last, is there a good general "tweaking guide" for the Catalyst drivers? Recommended settings and so on, or is the default OK nowdays? For example, is it adviceble to disable "vsync" etc, as was common with the older cards?

Thanks in advance!
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Ok, I didn't do my homework Of course I should have done some extensive searching in the forumus before I posted this topic...

Hmm... no way to delete the topic?
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Originally posted by: Speedo

Anyway, I would really need some help on what tools I need to overclock. I guess there's no "coolbits" (or similar) reg hack to enable overclocking options in the driver menus for ATI?.

Yes there is. It's called RadLinker
This will simply appear in your ATI control panel. A good external tool is PowerStrip.

Also, I would like to know what overclocking goal I should have. Should I try for XT speeds, or is that a bit too optimistic? Is this card memory bandwidth or GPU limited? That is, should I overclock the memory or GPU first, and then up the other as high as I can?

You should try to go as far as possible before artifacts appear. Usually for 9800Pro its close to 410mhz or maybe slightly above. As far as memory is concerned you should be able to hit around 365 (or 720 effective). With newer games your card is both gpu and memory bandwidth limited. Usually that is a good strategy to either overclock one and then the other. The majority of the heat that prevents memory from going higher comes from the GPU heat that surrounds them and this hot air circles around the motherboard making the chips much hotter. That is why if you overclock the GPU very high, the memory speed will be slightly slower, then if you were going to overclock the memory alone. So by you overclocking both at once in Sync mode and then seeing when artifacts come might be just as fast. Then once artifacts come you download one or the other and see which one stops the artifacts.

At last, is there a good general "tweaking guide" for the Catalyst drivers? Recommended settings and so on, or is the default OK nowdays? For example, is it adviceble to disable "vsync" etc, as was common with the older cards?

I'd enable TruForm, Disable Vsync, keep every other slider as far Right as possible (for best quality). For benchmarking purposes, Disable TruForm, Disable Vsync, keep every slider to the Left for Performance. Also set Anti-aliasing and Anisotropic filtering to Prefereed Application Prefernces so you do not force them in every game. You could always find out the settings your card handles in games. For most games you should be able to do 1024x768 4AA/8AF.
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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RussianSensation: Thanx a lot for your very informing reply!

Questions still remaining in my head is: What is TruForm, and what does it do? Couldn't it be a good idea to force, lets say, 4AA/4AF in all games, since that should run fine at 1024x768, or? I think FarCry only had "no, medium, high" AA settings etc, and I don't even know what that translates into. Dunno if there were any "in game" AF setting...

Speaking of FarCry; how do I run an FPS test? Some kind of timedemo, or is it possible to enable an FPS counter during normal gameplay?

I've seen "ATI tool" being mentioned in some other thread. Any drawbacks with that? It doesn't show up in the driver control panel?
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Btw, would it really be vice to run GPU/mem in sync, considering the big default difference? Also, does really the core put out so much more heat just by upping the frequency, eventhough there obviously isn't any raise in operating voltage?
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Originally posted by: Speedo
RussianSensation: Thanx a lot for your very informing reply!

Questions still remaining in my head is: What is TruForm, and what does it do?

Basically TruForm makes objects smoother by rounding the edges. Games like CounterStrike and Quake 3 support it I believe and perhaps some others. I am not sure if newer games support it or not but it used to be a forward looking feature. You can enable it in games if you'd like to see if it makes a difference or not. The performance drop is minimal with it or without it. You can read more on this Here and Here. Of course TruForm debuted with R200 (Radeon 8500), but since then evolved into TruForm 2 on Radeon 9800Pro offering:

TRUFORM? 2.0
2nd generation N-Patch higher order surface support (better image quality)
Discrete and continuous tessellation levels per polygon
Displacement mapping (for instance now you can distinguish between the tread of a car's tire much better making it look more 3D)

Now I am not sure if TruForm is still supported with the latest X800 series cards, leading me to believe that not a lot of games utilize it. Maybe someone can clarify this better.

Couldn't it be a good idea to force, lets say, 4AA/4AF in all games, since that should run fine at 1024x768, or? I think FarCry only had "no, medium, high" AA settings etc, and I don't even know what that translates into. Dunno if there were any "in game" AF setting...

Sure, in theory forcing AA should make things more convenient. However, sometimes the graphics card isnt fast enough to run one game with those settings when it can run another game just fine. This often forces players to keep changing the settings in the control panel by going back and forth making it incovenient. A possible solution would be to simply set application preference and just adjust to whatever settings your card can play "in game" thus preventing the need to exit the game and making changes on the desktop (ati control panel). The problem also lies in that sometimes when you force these settings they often dont work and you have to make changes within the game. Other times even if you make changes within the game, they are not implemented so you'll have to change them manually in teh control panel. It all depends and I guess you'll have to experiment or ask people on forums about specific game that you are interested in. What's worse, is that some games (ie. Halo) dont even support AA and only support AF, so it gets tricky. Also there is the final problem of personal preference. Personally I prefer 1600x1200 0AA/4AF over 1024x768 4AA/8AF. So you'll have to figure out what you like and what looks and runs better for you for every game. The beauty of having the "fastest" possible videocard you can get is that you wont have to worry about making these choices as the card will be able to play anything at any setting. Also, I think ATI should introduce a game porfolio in the drivers so you can remember the settings for each game you play like Nvidia's driver panel does. Hopefully that will come soon.

Speaking of FarCry; how do I run an FPS test? Some kind of timedemo, or is it possible to enable an FPS counter during normal gameplay?

Yes there was a timedemo circulating somewhere on the internet. You might want to look into a recent Far Cry thread that people were discussing or search for Far Cry-related threads or simply form a new quesiton and someone will point you to the timed demo. Other ways of estimating performance would be to read review sites with the games you play and try to approximate what you will get with "similar" setup. One way to enable the FPS counter is to download FRAPS 2.1 and run it by enabling the counter in the corner you desire. You can also average the frames, but I dont remember how, because I dont really use that feature with my slow card. Again maybe someone will point it out.

I've seen "ATI tool" being mentioned in some other thread. Any drawbacks with that? It doesn't show up in the driver control panel?

I haven't personally used ATI tool, so I cannot comment on its effectiveness and how it works. The Radlinker I posted above installs itself into ATI control panel. Once you enable the clocks you simply click Set and you are done. Powerstrip is also very simple. It really shoulndt' matter as you should be able to reach equal speeds with all of those tools. But some provide more precise increase/decrease increments (by making them smaller), making it much easier to find the top overclock.

Btw, would it really be vice to run GPU/mem in sync, considering the big default difference? Also, does really the core put out so much more heat just by upping the frequency, eventhough there obviously isn't any raise in operating voltage?

Unlike AMD or even Intel architecture, running videocards in sync doesn't really gain any improvement vs. running them in async so it really doesnt' matter. Besides for some cards it doesnt really make sense. For instance my radeon 8500 runs at 275/275. So i simply click Sync and adjust both sliders at once. But I simply do it for convience as my card stop at about 300/300 for each. Your card will probably go 380 => 415GPU (+35) and 680 => say 730 (or +25) So adjusting the slider together wouldn't be convenient. So try to adjust each to see where the artifacts come and then adjust both together to those same limit speeds and see if you need final adjustments.

The core will put out more heat regardless of increase in voltage. Imagine if something has to work faster, it will waste more energy and thus product more heat. If you increase the voltage (NOT recommended for VD) then it wil get even hotter. The heat produced at 415+mhz will not be that much more, but it will be a lot for the videocard because the cooling system on videocards isn't something like a Thermalright SP-97 or Zalman 7000Cu. If you had watercooling, you'd be able to increase it even more. Honestly though, I woudlnt even bother overclocking the 9800Pro because a) it's already fast enough in all games that it plays well b) in games where it's slow (Far Cry, Halo) overclocking it will not make them suddenly playable at the resolutions you were unable to play at before. Personally, i'd keep overclocking for benchmarking purposes because I doubt it will aid you more than 10%-15% improvement.
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Thanks a lot, you've been really helpful!

About overclocking: Actually I think 10%-15% isn't that bad of an improvement, and might be worth some overclocking efforts. Also, getting XT speeds seems tempting

...in games where it's slow (Far Cry, Halo)...
Do you think the 9800Pro will be slow in these games?


Thanks for the heads up on Trueform. Sounds interesting, and I hope it's impelmented in the latest games. Worth looking into...
 

BugsBunny1078

Banned
Jan 11, 2004
910
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You will not get XT speeds by overclocking alone. However a Bios flash will net you XT speeds. Beware ATI is too cheap to put a ram sink on their ram.
This ram does get very HOT.
So HOT it will almost burn you. That is with no overclock at all. Put ramsinks on with some arctic silver thermal adhesive. Beware not to put a clamp on the tiny heat sink near the molex because that chip will rip right off if you push that heat sink since it is on there lopsided with bad leverage just begging for disaster.
Get a VGA silencer cooler for nice cooling.
If you do these three things It will prbably cost you an extra 50$ and void your warranties. Is 15 average more fps wirth it to you? Is to me. You decide.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Originally posted by: Speedo
tempting

...in games where it's slow (Far Cry, Halo)...
Do you think the 9800Pro will be slow in these games?

Well at 1280x1024 with 0AA/0AF it will be just fine, but 1280x1024 4AA/8AF nope..

still the game looks beautiful even without AA/AF so don't worry. Only the new cards can play these games at high detail setting and they cost a lot so you really dont have a choice. Put it this way I have 8500 and I play at 1024x768 Medium settings (even though it's mid-30FPS I still enjoy the game.)
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
You will not get XT speeds by overclocking alone. However a Bios flash will net you XT speeds. Beware ATI is too cheap to put a ram sink on their ram.

Seeing as ATI's cards run fine at stock speeds and beyond, why exactly are they cheap if they don't put RAMsinks on their cards to help you overclock more?
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Isn't it up to the actual card manufacturers to decide whether to put ramsinks on the card or not? Or are you talking about the reference design?

I have been reading about XT bios flash mod, and it seems tempting to activate those "optimized shaders" (if my card has the R360 core). Actually I can't really understand how the bios of the card will determine the optimization of the shaders...?
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
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Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
You will not get XT speeds by overclocking alone. However a Bios flash will net you XT speeds. Beware ATI is too cheap to put a ram sink on their ram.

Seeing as ATI's cards run fine at stock speeds and beyond, why exactly are they cheap if they don't put RAMsinks on their cards to help you overclock more?

exactly. Indeed, I suspect that the reason companies put smaller heatsinks/no heatsinks on their cards is so people aren't able to overclock them really high without upgrading the cooling (thus voiding their warranty). Makes sense to me...no need for us to have to deal with high prices because someone killed their card overclocking it and tried for an RMA.
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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I think it's as simple as they didn't add ramsinks because it wasn't required to make the cards reliable at default speeds.
 

Kennyc

Junior Member
May 4, 2004
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I agree with speedo but bugs bunny is wrong you dont need to flash your bios to get xt speeds I have mine at 425/365

I just recently changed ny heatsink with a artic cooler rev.3 it works great the install is a breeze I can understand though how some over tighten or forget to put the fan on and screw up there card I almost forgot to put the fan on. I can go as high as 435/380 but I want my card to last me at least another year

I only run at 1024x768 and the 9800pro is good for now until I get a monitor that can do 1600x1200@100hz 60hz kills my eyes. I dont notice it on my laptop 1280x1024 but my crt flat you can Ok enough rambling get the artic cooler if you plan to OC I got it for 20.00 shipped at svc.com
 

Kennyc

Junior Member
May 4, 2004
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I agree with speedo but bugs bunny is wrong you dont need to flash your bios to get xt speeds I have mine at 425/365

I just recently changed ny heatsink with a artic cooler rev.3 it works great the install is a breeze I can understand though how some over tighten or forget to put the fan on and screw up there card I almost forgot to put the fan on. I can go as high as 435/380 but I want my card to last me at least another year

I only run at 1024x768 and the 9800pro is good for now until I get a monitor that can do 1600x1200@100hz 60hz kills my eyes. I dont notice it on my laptop 1280x1024 but my crt flat you can Ok enough rambling get the artic cooler if you plan to OC I got it for 20.00 shipped at svc.com
 

Speedo

Senior member
Jan 12, 2000
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Well, you can run at above XT clock speeds, but to get the optimized shaders you need to flash (learned that from rojak pots guide). Not sure it's worth the risk though What brand do you have on your 9800pro, Kennyc?
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
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Originally posted by: Kennyc
I only run at 1024x768 and the 9800pro is good for now until I get a monitor that can do 1600x1200@100hz 60hz kills my eyes. I dont notice it on my laptop 1280x1024 but my crt flat you can Ok enough rambling get the artic cooler if you plan to OC I got it for 20.00 shipped at svc.com

It's going to be tough to find a monitor that can do 1600x1200, 100Hz...but 1600x1200, 85Hz looks pretty good IMHO, MUCH better than 60Hz at least.

The reason you don't notice it on your laptop is that it is an LCD, "refresh rate" doesn't really apply.
 

BugsBunny1078

Banned
Jan 11, 2004
910
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Originally posted by: Speedo
Isn't it up to the actual card manufacturers to decide whether to put ramsinks on the card or not? Or are you talking about the reference design?

I have been reading about XT bios flash mod, and it seems tempting to activate those "optimized shaders" (if my card has the R360 core). Actually I can't really understand how the bios of the card will determine the optimization of the shaders...?
Yes it is up to them but it is cheap not to. Never mind about overclocking, this thing(r 350 core) is a freaking nuclear reactor at stock speeds. The ram is so hot it is freaking dangerous . It is not the absence of ram sinks that stop overcloking. The cards are just clocked to their max already. There is no overclocking headroom.
It doesn't matter I can put heatsinks on with thermal pads, put on a vga silencer and if my card burns out I can remove the heatsinks and put the old cooler back and still rma it.
Now the r360 core 9800 pro yes the Bios flash is worth it. It will be faster after the flash than you could ever get by overclocking. You do need ramsinks and alternative cooler. The ATI stock cooler sucks , simply put.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
Never mind about overclocking, this thing(r 350 core) is a freaking nuclear reactor at stock speeds. The ram is so hot it is freaking dangerous . It is not the absence of ram sinks that stop overcloking. The cards are just clocked to their max already. There is no overclocking headroom.
Oh c'mon... "dangerous"??? I think we're being a bit dramatic here.

As for no headroom... I'm running my 9800 PRO at 441/390, which is well beyond XT speeds. And I haven't even maxed it out yet!
 

Chebago

Senior member
Apr 10, 2004
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marcyes.com
just a note on halo and far cry
halo: maxed out settings at 1280x1024, there was some slowdown when it got really intense, but otherwise it ran great
far cry: 1024x768 with settings on medium and a few on low (shadows and details I think) this assures that the action never really drops below high 30 fps and maxes out at 100 something, some people say they can play the game at whatever high settings with 1280x1024 etc. But I notice tremendous slowdown when setting things on high, even with medium though, game looks incredible. I have read in forums that the real problem with far cry is it loves memory, a lot of problems seemed to be solved by having 1024 megs, or so I've heard, can't confirm.

sapphire 9800 pr
amd Barton 2600+
512 samsung pc2700
 

JeffCY

Member
Jun 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: KennycI can go as high as 435/380 but I want my card to last me at least another year

Does overclocking decrease the life of your card? If I want my card to last at least 2-3 years, should I not do any overclocking at all with stock cooling?
 
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