RAID Thoughts

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
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0
Hey all,

Building a new machine soon, and I'm trying to decide whether I want to go the RAID route or not. I've never played with RAID before, but now might be the time (or maybe not).

My plan was to have two SATA 500 GB Hard Drives. One I would use for everything, the other just basically to back up important stuff and stuff I wouldn't want to lose should the first drive fail (and for extra space should I ever need it, but not for quite some time - lol).

I definitely want the backup ability, and as I understand it, RAID 1 is mirroring, so unless something like a virus happened (in which case the other volume could get screwed anyhow), it sounds like this would be my solution.

My apologies for the rather ignorant questions, but:

1.) Am I correct that in RAID 1, if one drive fails, the data is still perfectly intact on the other and retrievable?

2.) How hard is RAID 1 to set up? Is this done in the BIOS or after the OS is set up?

3.) I'll be using the onboard RAID controller of whatever motherboard I'm using (possibly the ASUS Striker Extreme, but still up in the air). Do these work fairly well?

4.) From what I understand, RAID 1 should improve read performance (and I'm thinking write performance should remain the same). Does this make a real-world difference?

5.) Any significant drawbacks to a RAID configuration? Much more CPU resources used?

Thanks all!
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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1) Yes.
2) Easy to setup; just follow the instructions. In the RAID controller BIOS (separate from the system BIOS).
3) Yes.
4) Yes. It'll make a difference if you frequently deal with reading large files.
5) Hardware RAID uses little CPU resources. No big drawbacks.
 

RaiderJ

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
7,582
1
76
Unless you need RAID 1, for something like critical video editing, you're probably better off with a smaller backup drive and RAID 0 for the two 500's. The main reason for RAID 1 is for reducing downtime in the case of hardware failure.

Incremental backups to an external drive is a much better way to protect important data. That way if you do lose something or even delete it, you can go back and retrieve it.
 

Blain

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
23,643
3
81
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
Originally posted by: Blain
Jon makes a pretty good argument. :roll:
RAID done right isn't cheap. But a solid external HD and religious backups are wise.

His argument makes sense - what do you disagree with?
"Disagree with"? I said he makes a good argument. :roll:
I'd run one 500GB HD in the PC and the other, either in a good external enclosure or in a NAS unit.

 

RaiderJ

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
7,582
1
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Originally posted by: Blain
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
Originally posted by: Blain
Jon makes a pretty good argument. :roll:
RAID done right isn't cheap. But a solid external HD and religious backups are wise.

His argument makes sense - what do you disagree with?
"Disagree with"? I said he makes a good argument. :roll:
I'd run one 500GB HD in the PC and the other, either in a good external enclosure or in a NAS unit.

I'm confused then. Saying he makes a good argument, but following that with a rolling eyes face seems like you were being sarchastic.

Maybe I'm just too tired to think straight!
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
Originally posted by: Blain
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
Originally posted by: Blain
Jon makes a pretty good argument. :roll:
RAID done right isn't cheap. But a solid external HD and religious backups are wise.

His argument makes sense - what do you disagree with?
"Disagree with"? I said he makes a good argument. :roll:
I'd run one 500GB HD in the PC and the other, either in a good external enclosure or in a NAS unit.

I'm confused then. Saying he makes a good argument, but following that with a rolling eyes face seems like you were being sarchastic.

Maybe I'm just too tired to think straight!
Blain knows what he's talking about :roll:












:laugh:
 

Blain

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
23,643
3
81
To me, the :roll: (rolling eyes) symbolizes... "something to think about".
I can't be held responsible, if this forum has limited icon selection.
I was all for the $30 subscription fee, but Nooooooooo... they just had to make it free. :|
 

Madwand1

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2006
3,309
0
76
Originally posted by: guptasa1
4.) From what I understand, RAID 1 should improve read performance (and I'm thinking write performance should remain the same). Does this make a real-world difference?

No, as a rule, you cannot count on improved read performance in inexpensive RAID 1 implementations. I haven't heard of an nVIDIA implementation that improves RAID 1 read performance (it might and should exist at some point, but I haven't heard of one yet). However, Intel ICHxR/ICHxDO/etc. implementations do improve RAID 1 read performance (but I dont' know about every version).

nVIDIA RAID 1 (which I've seen) has a slight negative performance impact for reads and writes.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k203/Madwand0/Raid1-vs-single-small.png
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Spend @$100 more and grab a Raptor 150GB for OS/apps and use 1x500GB as a storage/backup drive.
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
0
0
Thanks guys,

So, basically (and there are a few dissenters, but...), you're saying I won't notice any performance increase from RAID 1 on that board because of the built-in nVIDIA RAID controller. In fact, it's more likely that it'll cause a slight performance decrease? Not even reads will be faster?

I definitely don't want a dedicated RAID card as with these motherboards, there just isn't space - too many other things I'd rather have instead.

As far as backup purposes, it'd be nice to have a mirrored copy unless something really awful happened. But, as long as I actually do them, backups aren't a bad solution.

And finally, as to the Raptor idea, I have considered it, but 150 just seems a little small to me for a primary hard drive. I dunno. Is the speed increase that noticeable for a Raptor vs. a 7200 RPM drive?
 

RaiderJ

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
7,582
1
76
You'd have to do a subjective test and see if RAID 1 in your setup would improve performance. When I did a RAID 0 for my OS drive, I definitely noticed an improvement in boot times. RAID 1 might "feel" faster for you.

RAID 1 would be an easy way to protect against a drive failure.

My suggestion: RAID 0 so you can have a single 1TB drive, then have a USB drive for backups.
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
0
0
Hrmmm. Or I suppose I could do two of the Raptors at RAID 0 for a 300 GB OS drive and then have a 500 GB for backup. Though I can't say the fact that RAID 0 (I'm assuming that's striping) uses two drives and if either fails I'm SOL gives me an easy feeling.
 

Blain

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
23,643
3
81
Go ahead and set up some kind of RAID array.
You'll think you're missing out on some kind of voodoo magic if you don't. :laugh:

The quicker you get it over with the better. Then you can move on to the next greatest General Hardware topic.
I wonder what the next cool thing coming down the pike will be. :roll:
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
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0
Hehe. I dunno - I'll hafta think about it. If I were to, my current favorite idea would be the two Raptors striped with a 500 GB backup. But, we'll see. I'm not sure if it'd be worth it or not for the possible problems that could occur, and I'd have to make sure the backups were ultra-religious (which they should be anyways - lol).
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Originally posted by: guptasa1
As far as backup purposes, it'd be nice to have a mirrored copy unless something really awful happened. But, as long as I actually do them, backups aren't a bad solution.

I'd say for data integrity go for an external backup drive, and then make yourself do regular backups.

As mentioned, RAID 1 is for getting going again really quick. What it doesn't protect you from is accidental deletion, viruses, worms. A friend of mine got a worm once that overwrote all his MP3 files into garbage. RAID 1 doesn't protect against stuff like that.
 

Enlightenment

Junior Member
Mar 9, 2007
16
0
0
Originally posted by: Blain
Jon makes a pretty good argument. :roll:
I disagree, i wrote the following email to him in response:

Hi Jon,

I would like to comment on your article named "Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea". While i generally agree with you that RAID is much of a hype and does indeed complexify the system and due to crappy onboard driver/firmware implementations can create lot's of headaches, there are some factual inaccuracies i would like to correct.

Let me take on a quote:

> RAID0 does increase throughput, but it does absolutely nothing to help the access time. What does that mean? It means that if you are reading and writing a large number of smaller files, the performance benefit will be very minimal. If you are reading or writing a large amount of data at one location on the disk, that is where you will see a benefit. Therefore, in times where you are working with transferring or copying very large files, RAID0 can make sense.

This, quite frankly, is not true. Although RAID0 does not lower the access time (it may even yield higher access time due to overhead latency), it *does* actually speedup random I/O and thus realistic I/O patterns. This is a common misconception that people refuse to accept; sustained by useless synthetic benchmarks like HDtune. When i tell this to people on forums they reject my statement; then i ask them the following question: how come a *real* hardware RAID controller like Areca ARC-1210 does have higher access time than a single disk but beat the single disk in any benchmark by a great margin? Apparantly, access time is not the paramount variable regarding 'realistic speed'.

In general, performance can be classified in:
- Sequential Transfer Rate (STR)
- Random I/O performance

The first is easy to measure and a shitload of free and commercial applications exist to measure them; they are used in 98% of all RAID-benchmarks. The problem is that STR is often not very important anymore; since even a single disk can deliver quite high STR values - the random I/O performance is much more important. It's obvious how RAID0 does speedup STR performance, but how does it speedup random I/O performance? Assuming the access time is the same or even slightly higher - how can a RAID0 array be faster than a single disk when there is virtually no sequential access? The answer is parallelism - with a single disk all I/O requests will be executed in serial order but with RAID0 each disk is able to perform I/O at the same time - thus if there are 2000 I/O requests to be done, each disk could take a part of that load and the aggregate performance will be higher than a single disk. The accesstime is actually a measurement of ONE I/O request; with no ability for parallelization. With a 4-disk RAID0 array, you have four drives able to seek. One I/O request may not be processed faster but a bunch of them most likely will, since at least some of them will likely occur on one of the other disks.

To show some proof, please review this highly random I/O benchmark called RAIDTEST. This benchmark does a mixture of random I/O requests with transfer sizes ranging from 16KB to 128KB, so very much non-sequential. I/O requests are 50% read and 50% write.


Single drive (ad8)
concurrency Performance in I/O's per sec. average
1 106 106 107 106
4 106 106 106 106
16 116 116 116 116
32 127 125 126 126
128 151 151 150 150
256 156 156 157 156

RAID0 with 4 disks: gstripe 4xad - 128KB stripe - FM off
concurrency Performance in I/O's per sec. average
1 173 173 173 173
4 270 270 270 270
16 338 338 338 338
32 370 370 370 370
128 444 434 434 437
256 465 465 465 465


As you can see the RAID0 array yields a significant benefit with regard to extremely random performance. The performance gain ranges from 63% to 300%.

There are some conditions which spoil RAID0's ability to increase random I/O performance though, like:
- too low stripesize (with a stripesize of 16KB; many I/O requests have to be done by multiple disks thus killing the parallelization ability)
- filesystem misalignment (the filesystem partition does not start at the beginning of a stripe block)
- application data offset != 0 (usually no real problem and unavoidable)

So my conclusion is that RAID0 offers significant performance benefits to both sequential and non-sequential ("random") access patterns. If people tell me RAID0 is unsafe, then i tell them their single-disk is, too. If your data is important, you need AT LEAST a proper backup or RAID1/3/4/5/6, while a combination provides the best safeguard against dataloss. It kind of irritates me that people who use single disks both internally and a bunch of external disks, maybe a total of 6 disks without any protection or proper backup, but when somebody has a 2-disk RAID0 array people yell at them calling them unsafe. Single disk-users are just as unsafe. The only difference is that the magnitude of dataloss is bigger WHEN dataloss occurs. RAID0 in itself does not speedup the failure rate of drives. Any statistics that implicate this draw wrong conclusions. They do not account for the different usage patterns for disks used in RAID:
- often used by more power users who put greater demands and utilization
- multiple disks likely means more heat
- RAID-systems can be 24/7

Apart from this, i agree that any RAID and especially onboard RAID adds complexity to one's system and can cause major headaches. It should not be used unless people understand what it is and carefully weigh the advantages versus the disadvantages. But RAID is not evil, and can actually be of great use to even simple gamers or casual computer users. Disk performance is considered to be the biggest bottleneck of modern computers. Everytime when i hear a computer is 'slow' it's due to disk bottleneck - often caused by too little RAM which is in turn caused by spyware or many loaded applications at startup. In the future mechanical harddrives will be abandoned which in my opinion can't happen fast enough.

Thanks for your time for reading my feedback and please be sure to respond if your time allows!

Regards
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
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0
Wow - great stuff. This really is complex, but things are getting clearer.

My current thought is:

Two WD Raptor X's in RAID 0 configuration (300 GB total)
One WD My Book 320 GB External Drive w/ Nightly Backups

The backup is probably a good idea anyhow, and then I reap all the benefits of RAID. I'll be using my onboard controller though (no extra space for a separate RAID card), so I hope performance will still be decent.
 

Enlightenment

Junior Member
Mar 9, 2007
16
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At least make sure your onboard controller does not run via a PCI bus, but via dedicated embedded bus directly connected to the chipset. Then performance will be fine.
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
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0
I believe that's the case with all the 680i chipsets, no? (Right now I'm waiting to see MSI's offering with built-in Xi if it ever frakkin' shows up; my other choice would be the ASUS Striker Extreme, and I know that offers two forms of RAID onboard...NVidia's and another one [starts with S but can't think of the name]).

I'm *still* pretty freaked out about the idea of RAID 0 drive failures, but I guess one drive failing in a RAID array isn't THAT much riskier than a single drive failing anyhow. Sure, it's riskier, but after learning it doesn't stress the drives anymore...I dunno...should be okay.

Also, when I'm going to set up the computer the first time, do I just jumper the drives correctly and set up RAID 0 in the BIOS so the computer will see it as one drive, then continue as normal?

And secondly...say I wanted to do RAID 0+1. Would I need one more larger drive, or *two*? Would this negate the performance improvement of the RAID 0, especially if I used a slower drive (since no larger drives are bigger than Raptors anyways)?

Thanks folks. Very helpful so far!
 

guptasa1

Senior member
Oct 22, 2001
366
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One other question I thought of - how often does S.M.A.R.T. predict drive failures?
 

V00D00

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
1,834
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There are no jumpers to setup for SATA drives, if you are refering to the Raptor's. Yes, it's a simple process involving picking the drives you want to add to the RAID (in your raid bios). It takes less than 10 minutes to figure out for the first time. Then you should be able to do it in under a minute. It's very simple.

RAID 0+1 requires 4 drives total. Two are striped, and the other two mirror the striped disks. Reall, that's not economical for a 4 drive configuration. I would like to see some benchmarks on that, because it sounds like it would add latency unless you have a dedicated hardware raid card. I benchmarked a 14 drive scsi array with all the possible raid modes, but the results aren't published. I'll have to dig them up to see how the performance compares.

One question you need to ask yourself is, does the added expense of a RAID 1 setup justify the 1-5 second increase in boot time? Most of the boot time is initializing drivers anyway. Do you really do enough hard drive intensive activities to notice the speed increase? In my computer, I had a RAID 1 of 2 x 300gb drives to prevent hardware failure when I didn't feel like doing backups. Now I've moved to a 4 x 300gb RAID 5... again for nothing more than redundancy... and I don't have to worry about backups. (even though I know it's a very good idea)

Your initial post was about RAID for redundancy, but now you want to spend more money on a system to increase your speed by a small amount... and now you MUST commit to doing backups. This seems kind of backwards to your initial inquiry.

edit

Originally posted by: guptasa1
One other question I thought of - how often does S.M.A.R.T. predict drive failures?

Google recently released a report regarding the failure rates of their HUGE population of hard drives, and they stated that SMART was sometimes a good indicator of iminent hard drive failure, but "It also suggests that powerful predictive models need to make use of signals beyond those provided by SMART."
"Despite those strong correlations, we find that failure prediction models based on SMART parameters alone are likely to be severely limited in their prediction accuracy, given that a large fraction of our failed drives have shown no SMART error signals whatsoever."
(http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf, Feb. 2007)
 
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