Raised Fist Salute - "Black Power" or "Army Strong"?

stlc8tr

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2011
1,106
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I've never served so this is the first time I've heard of the "Army Strong" raised fist tradition. But it's interesting that only black fists are considered political gestures.

https://news.vice.com/article/black-female-cadets-under-investigation-for-raised-fist-picture

US military officials are investigating an image of 16 black female cadets in uniform with their fists raised, which some say is a political act associated with African-Americans' quest for fair treatment under the law in the United States.
The photo came under scrutiny when concerns were raised that the pose violates West Point's honor code, which mirrors the Defense Department's federal Hatch Act, in that it prohibits members of the military to participate in political activities while in uniform.
The raised-fist image is now closely associated with the #BlackLivesMatter movement, which swept the country in the wake of several high-profile police killings of unarmed black men. The image picked up some traffic online, and drew criticism that the woman were expressing support for the movement, which is critical of law enforcement. For example, one twitter user under the slogan "BlueLivesMatter" — a counter slogan supporting police — was incensed. "Expel them and force them to repay their tuition" she wrote.
Fulton also points out that there's another tradition at West Point, wherein cadets raise their fists whenever the "Army Strong" theme from the recruitment commercials is played (as demonstrated in the video below). "It is unfortunate that a black first has a different connotation to a white fist," Fulton said. "It's not what these young women intended."
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
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In recent times, the last hundred years, it was a Russian thing way before it was a black thing. Perhaps someone could ask the cadets before getting butt hurt?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,682
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Doesn't matter what the students thought of their gesture. If they're in uniform as they were, then they represent the service and not themselves.

As such, they needed to get prior approval to publish their postings from their commandant/public relations in-charge.

In effect, they committed an act of insubordination and gross misjudgment of character in my eyes.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
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Doesn't matter what the students thought of their gesture. If they're in uniform as they were, then they represent the service and not themselves.

As such, they needed to get prior approval to publish their postings from their commandant/public relations in-charge.

In effect, they committed an act of insubordination and gross misjudgment of character in my eyes.

I didn't realize you were Brigadier General Diana Holland.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
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You do realize Magnus that tweaker2 summed up the entire situation perfectly by stating the rules that all cadets must adhere to.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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black power...black lives matter, no question, they are just trying to back off it now that they got outed on the photo...similar to the white kids posing with the rebel flag
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
It doesn't matter what anyone in this thread thinks, it's in the hands of the US Army and whatever they decide.

There's the right way, the wrong way, and the military way which is neither right or wrong but it is the way you will do things while you serve in the military.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
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Isn't the black power fist with a straight arm? Like this:



It looks like they are all intentionally bending their elbows. Is the BLM fist done with a bent elbow?
 

VtPC83

Senior member
Mar 5, 2008
447
12
81
It is naive for anyone to think this gesture was not politically motivated.

The Military will investigate and dole out the appropriate punishments since this was directly against their code of conduct.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Sweet Lord, we're a nation of permanently butt-chapped delicate little special snow flakes just looking for a reason to be offended. If this constitutes "a political act", let's all hope that some political group doesn't adopt firing a weapon as one of their special acts lest our entire military be neutered.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
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Isn't the black power fist with a straight arm? Like this:



It looks like they are all intentionally bending their elbows. Is the BLM fist done with a bent elbow?



You are waaaay over analyzing this. WAAAAAAAAAAAY over analyzing.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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black power...black lives matter, no question, they are just trying to back off it now that they got outed on the photo...similar to the white kids posing with the rebel flag

Because Black Power and it's connotations is so very like the flag that represents the failed slaver's rebellion. Kids eh?

Maybe you should get back to analyzing how Hillary can't get the woman's vote. <snicker>
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
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Real easy solution to this issue. A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do. Appeal to their honor as cadets and interview each one. If all 16 cadets are consistent in their assertion that the pose is not a political statement, then we must respect that they are speaking truthfully and dismiss the incident entirely.

However, if they were making a political statement, then on their honor as cadets they should confess to it, at which point give them some disciplinary area tours up until graduation and call it a day. If there is inconsistency in their accounts, then it becomes an Honor Violation, the implications for which could lead to dismissal.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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Based on the picture that nobody has commented on, I'm surprised they weren't labeled thugs as well. Look at all that cutlery they're brandishing. Looks like they're preparing for a war or something.



And speaking only for myself, looking at this picture I really don't see a bunch of young 'militants'. Some of them can barely raise their arms.



Tempest in a teapot.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Sweet Lord, we're a nation of permanently butt-chapped delicate little special snow flakes just looking for a reason to be offended. If this constitutes "a political act", let's all hope that some political group doesn't adopt firing a weapon as one of their special acts lest our entire military be neutered.

It's not about offense at all, military people are subject to discipline for exercising their free speech rights while in uniform if it creates even the appearance of impropriety. Even the stupidest buck private in the Army knows that when you're in uniform and in public, you don't offer up unsolicited political statements or anything that can be interpreted as one if you don't want the Uniform Code of Military Justice hammer to be brought down upon you. This stuff ain't no joke either, as any veteran can tell you or you can just read about stories like this one.

That being said the punishment should reflect the relatively tame nature of what they did; a letter of reprimand is probably too harsh but is likely what they'll get as a verbal warning won't have the desired deterrent effect for others.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
It's not about offense at all, military people are subject to discipline for exercising their free speech rights while in uniform if it creates even the appearance of impropriety. Even the stupidest buck private in the Army knows that when you're in uniform and in public, you don't offer up unsolicited political statements or anything that can be interpreted as one if you don't want the Uniform Code of Military Justice hammer to be brought down upon you. This stuff ain't no joke either, as any veteran can tell you or you can just read about stories like this one.

That being said the punishment should reflect the relatively tame nature of what they did; a letter of reprimand is probably too harsh but is likely what they'll get as a verbal warning won't have the desired deterrent effect for others.

I suspect they will get a letter of reprimand as well. The bad thing is that this will follow them for their entire career and potentially interfere with rank advancements and/or assignments. During my time in the Navy I saw several officers do or say stupid things that affected them in negative ways and they never went any further than 0-4 after that. None ever got to the point that they had their own command either.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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And the Academy has taken the cadets at their word and the matter is finished.

"The United States Military Academy at West Point announced on Tuesday that it would not punish 16 cadets who posed for a photograph last week with raised fists, saying the gesture was intended to show “unity” and “pride,” and did not violate Army regulations that prohibit engaging in partisan political activities while in uniform."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/u...to.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&_r=0
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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And the Academy has taken the cadets at their word and the matter is finished.

"The United States Military Academy at West Point announced on Tuesday that it would not punish 16 cadets who posed for a photograph last week with raised fists, saying the gesture was intended to show &#8220;unity&#8221; and &#8220;pride,&#8221; and did not violate Army regulations that prohibit engaging in partisan political activities while in uniform."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/u...to.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&_r=0

Works for me. Even if they had originally intended for it to portray a "black power" symbolism or solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement, that's moot and the symbolism dead and buried now that they've disavowed it after the fact.

For their sake I hope it wasn't symbolism, since if they did intend it to be a political message I no longer respect that message now that they've proved cowards who lacked the courage to maintain it in the face of adversity. No symbolism I can respect, meant to show symbolism and willing to take your punishment for it I can respect, intended to be symbolism and you chickened out then being at West Point and a future officer isn't the place for you.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,682
7,181
136
And the Academy has taken the cadets at their word and the matter is finished.

"The United States Military Academy at West Point announced on Tuesday that it would not punish 16 cadets who posed for a photograph last week with raised fists, saying the gesture was intended to show “unity” and “pride,” and did not violate Army regulations that prohibit engaging in partisan political activities while in uniform."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/u...to.html&eventName=Watching-article-click&_r=0

I consider those cadets very VERY lucky they got off clean, though I suspect the sensitivity of the situation had a lot to do with how it got handled. I'm thinking although on the face of it those cadets got a pass, internally they are unofficially receiving some kind of punitive action, mild as it would be, along with being considered radioactive by some classmates. And I'm also thinking that incident got recorded in their personnel files, where that kind of information could make the difference between getting fast tracked or getting turned down for a promotion in a "close call"........repeatedly.
 

jckhmr

Junior Member
May 11, 2016
1
0
0
Doesn't matter what the students thought of their gesture. If they're in uniform as they were, then they represent the service and not themselves.

As such, they needed to get prior approval to publish their postings from their commandant/public relations in-charge.

In effect, they committed an act of insubordination and gross misjudgment of character in my eyes.

So explain the act of gross insubordination that during a West Point Band Concert, July 4th, 2011, during a performance of Army Strong.

Goggle: Army Strong, West Point Band
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,682
7,181
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So explain the act of gross insubordination that during a West Point Band Concert, July 4th, 2011, during a performance of Army Strong.

Goggle: Army Strong, West Point Band

Do me a favor and provide a link. I'll gladly take a look at it.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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I consider those cadets very VERY lucky they got off clean, though I suspect the sensitivity of the situation had a lot to do with how it got handled. I'm thinking although on the face of it those cadets got a pass, internally they are unofficially receiving some kind of punitive action, mild as it would be, along with being considered radioactive by some classmates. And I'm also thinking that incident got recorded in their personnel files, where that kind of information could make the difference between getting fast tracked or getting turned down for a promotion in a "close call"........repeatedly.

So, you believe that the cadets are liars. Interesting.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,682
7,181
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So, you believe that the cadets are liars. Interesting.

No, not at all. What I'm pointing to is the FACT that those cadets, whether knowingly or unknowingly found themselves in the middle of a potentially sticky situation that brought attention to themselves and through them the Academy and the US Army.

The mere potential of bringing undue attention to the Service and the Academy is cause for unrest and negative reactions from classmates and staff. In other words, the Academy's reputation and honor was in possible jeopardy because of those cadet's actions. That by itself is enough to get a cadet ostracized and set apart from the body proper, let alone a whole group of them identifying themselves as unique in a way that they could never realize, but appearance-wise, could be mistakenly interpreted from the outside looking in.

Right or wrong, I'm pretty sure the cadets won't dare repeat that pose and publish it again as the potential for a broad negative reaction is real.

For example, can you imagine what a White Supremacist group can interpret that picture as and then use it to their advantage?

As an aside, it would be interesting to know what happened to those pictures/vids? that started the whole affair.
 
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