Rambus and Infineon have settled out of court

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: Czar
you own rambus stock dont you

Of course I do... You'd be a fool not to own stock in them. They have owned the memory industry since 1988. If you know the whole story about how they were ripped off, you'd buy stock too...

SDRAM/DDR/GDDR/DDR2 are all innovations built from Rambus' core design. Memory manufacturers simply tried to steal it from them via JEDEC. Luckily, it isn't working

The last 2 holdouts that aren't paying royalties (of the original 11) are Micron and Hynix.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,481
10,140
126
That's right - out of all of the memory mfgs that there are/were, many of them semiconductor design/mfg firms with long histories in the business - not one of them could have possibly come up with the idea for synchronously-clocked memories. No, Rambus invented everything. I mean, it couldn't have possibly been that, all of those companies were seeking to standardize memory hardware/electrical interfaces, and Rambus got wind of it, and amended their patents, in a hush-hush manner, before the standards were finalized, and then decided to "spring one" on the entire industry, effectively extorting them, no. And of course, they aren't paying off Rambus to alleviate the financial drain on them that protracted litigation would cause, no, they're paying them off because Rambus is right, Rambus is the only true innovator in the industry, and are deserving of all of the spoils, even after the questionable ethics of their tactics and business plan have come to light.

:roll:
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
The fact is... Rambus had the idea first back in 1988. That's the breaks. You invent something, you patent it, it's yours to collect on.

So yes. They did invent everything, like it or not.

Rambus wanted to WORK WITH the memory industry to bring its invention to market. But the memory manufacturers instead tried to use JEDEC to steal Rambus' idea. That's what happened, that's what's documented, that's the evidence that was presented. They have extorted no one.

Your version of the story is the wildly inaccurate one that's been floating around for years. It's never had a single thin dime of merit then, and it doesn't now. Your argument has been proven wrong time and time again in court, which is why these companies simply must settle.

Fault the memory manufacturers for trying to steal. Fault them for gouging your prices. Fault them for stagnating the memory industry. If Rambus had their way, your memory would be cheaper and ten times faster. You are faulting the wrong party for the current state of memory.

It was the memory manufacturers who did not want to become foundries for Rambus and Intel. They are the one who decided to break the law in concert and attempt to subvert any process they could to steal Rambus' technology. That's the way the law sees it, that's the way I see it, and any other view is likely the same fantasy-land view that's been circulating the web without any shred of merit whatsoever.

If you question Rambus' business plan, ethics or tactics, then surely you must think that subverting the JEDEC process for the purposes of THEFT must be pretty bad, huh? And that collusively lowering and raising prices to kill off a competitor must also be pretty bad, huh?

I suppose if you think Rambus' business practices and tactics are worse than the memory manufacturers, you must work for Hynix or Micron. Either that, or your name is Bert McComas or Van Smith. Either way, all of those names are complete disgraces. Two have bowed out of the industry forefront. The others will too in time. As for you, you weren't swayed by the truth in other threads, I don't expect you to be swayed by the truth here. It simply doesn't seem to be in your nature.

 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
By the way, the previous thread regarding all this is here. You can see plenty more twisted logic and falsehoods coming from VirtualLarry and others.

Do your research. Don't blindly believe everything you read from trade rags, forum posts or the like. Read the damn court transcripts in full and base your decision on what both sides agree is the truth. Rambus.org is a good starting point, as they have direct links to all the court dockets at the respective court websites. You're simply not informed of the truth otherwise, and you'll wind up looking like poor ole VirtualLarry; misinformed and hateful towards a tiny innovative company for all the wrong reasons.
 

her34

Senior member
Dec 4, 2004
581
1
81
ice9, so what do you see ultimately happening in the future? (regarding anything or everything)
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
0
Thats so funny.

All the Rambus bashers got pwned by facts, statements/memos, court rulings, and first-hand sources.


Edit: I'm surprised Rambus hasn't sued anyone for slander.

Best quote there:

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I don't need legal documents to help me decide what I know is wrong and what is wrong. Apparently, not everyone is blessed with that ability.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
I own a pile of rambus stock as well.

It is inevitable that XDR will eventually be needed for multicore chips, DDR latency is getting too insane.
 

ginfest

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2000
1,927
3
81
Just remember one simple fact when these threads come up-you'kll save yourself a lot of virtual aggravation!

At the AT forums, Rambus, Intel, Nvidia, MS and a few select others are always wrong, poor products, etc, etc, any other opinions except those of the "100 post per day" experts :roll: are irrelevant


Mike G
 

DerKaiser

Senior member
Feb 12, 2002
460
0
0
But people have been predicting that Rambus would get billions for years of back-royalties. Seems that since Rambus' entire case was recently thrown out, they had to settle for a lot less. Even with this additional revenue, Rambus' stock is still over-valued.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,846
11,204
136
Please try not to bash VirtualLarry. His opinions are his own, and, for various reasons, I agree with some of his points.

As for the settlement, it signifies nothing. Infineon had the upper hand after RAMBUS got slapped hard by Judge Payne as indicated here:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/03/01/HNrambusdismiss_1.html

If Infineon's statements can be believed, RAMBUS, Inc. was apparently guilty of shredding key documents and failing to produce evidence. But, at this point, who do you really believe? I don't own stock in any of the players involved in this mess, and I think they're all frauds. Nevertheless, this ruling has not yet been overturned, so the latest finding of the court is that RAMBUS's case against Infineon is without merit.

This settlement only shows that Infineon deemed it in their best financial interest to bring the matter to a close. It might mean they knew they were going to lose in court. It might mean that they figured continued legal expenses could exceed the cost of further litigation and potential PR problems. It might mean that Infineon wanted a piece of the XDR market so they could sell memory for use in PS3s or similar devices, and settled to attain "most-favored customer" status with RAMBUS, Inc. Who knows? Neither side has admitted to anything yet.

So, why am I supposed to be cheering for RAMBUS, Inc? Are they noble because they delayed defending their own patents until it became profitable for them to do so? Is it laudable for them to shake down a bunch of price-fixing corporations by tricking them into drafting standards incorporating RAMBUS, Inc's patented technology? I don't know about you, but I'm not cheering for anyone. Seems to me that everyone involved is either lacking in business ethics or is outright criminal. I'd like to kick them all in the head and be done with it.
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: DrMrLordX
Please try not to bash VirtualLarry. His opinions are his own, and, for various reasons, I agree with some of his points.

As for the settlement, it signifies nothing. Infineon had the upper hand after RAMBUS got slapped hard by Judge Payne as indicated here:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/03/01/HNrambusdismiss_1.html

Every one of Judge Payne's rulings were found to be grossly erroneous by the federal circuit. In fact, Judge Rader of the federal circuit (and the #1 patent authority in the nation) said "No reasonable jury could have found Rambus guilty". None of his rulings have EVER stood. Judge Payne said himself he is not well-versed in patent law.

Now let me get this straight. Infineon is a huge subsidiary of Siemens. They have the power to leverage as much money as they need. Hell, they retained Kenneth Starr, the same guy involved in the whole Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton fiasco. Rambus is a tiny 200 person company who makes piddly money comapred to Infineon. They don't have 100 million to spend on legal expenses.

Now you want me to believe that Infineon decided to settle because it was financially worthwhile for them - and give up tens of millions of dollars a year in royalties effectively DOUBLING Rambus' bottom line - even though their own financial statements show that it only cost them single-digit millions a year to fight them in court? Explain this logic.

Potential PR problems, sure i'll buy that. Infineon admitted they were guilty of infringement. They stated that Rambus' patents were valid and were simply hinging on the JEDEC argument.

As for why Rambus Inc delayed defending their own patents, this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Read this, and please try to understand it as it outlines the very crux of this case. At the time Rambus attended JEDEC, they only had patent applications. The patents were not granted at the time. ALL those companies were under NDA from Rambus. This is all in the DOJ dockets. If you read them, you'll see that all these companies knew about Rambus technology long before SDRAM was an itch in JEDEC's pants. JEDEC only wanted to know about Patents, not patent applications. In fact, at the time it was illegal to state that you had patent applications. You could present your technology all you wanted, just don't say "we have patent applications on this." That's the law.

Rambus, once again, is not a memory manufacturer. They are a technology company that simply wants to be the brains behind an innovation, and leave the manufacturing to someone else. They don't have the money or resources. Therefore, they wanted to work with all of these companies. Their desire to want to work with these companies is what made them accept the invitation to JEDEC. Since JEDEC is NOT opposed to licensing proprietary technology (provided they are offered RAND rates, which Rambus would have agreed to), this gave them the opportunity to have RDRAM become the new JEDEC standard.

So, if all these companies knew about Rambus technology under NDA, how exactly did Rambus "trick" JEDEC into adopting their technology? (hint: this defense fell flat on its face in the ftc trial.)

How exactly can JEDEC claim Rambus did something wrong when it was JEDEC themselves who barred Rambus from presenting their technology on all 3 occasions offered during the SDRAM standardization process? (hint: in the entire history of JEDEC, only ONE company was ever barred from presenting their technology for consideration. That company? RAMBUS. Read the FTC docket for more information.)

Your post is the same weak argument that simply hasn't held up in court. In fact, it simply goes to show just how far these memory manufacturers are willing to go to squeeze a small player out of the market.

 

DerKaiser

Senior member
Feb 12, 2002
460
0
0
If you want to believe that a fixed non-royalty quarterly payment and no back royalties is a huge victory for Rambus, then you're more deluded than even your idiotic posts would indicate.
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: her34
ice9, so what do you see ultimately happening in the future? (regarding anything or everything)

Personally, I think there's going to be a huge turn in the computer industry. In fact, we're about due for one.

If you look back through computing history, the trend has always been one of downsizing form factors. When I entered the IT world back in college, the industry was transitioning from Mainframe computing to "Client/Server" computing using Desktop PC's/PC-based servers.

10 years prior to that, comptuers where enormous. Mainframes did read/write to huge stacks of punch cards. In fact, all the programming courses I took in college did punch-card emulation despite the fact that we were on DASD.

20 years ago, that was the trend. But it slowly transitioned to desktop computing. Then it slowly morphed into client/server with technologies like Netware, then Windows NT.

Then the internet happened.

If you look at trends in computing very closely, you start to realize one thing. The future of computing simply isn't on the desktop. It's on the wire that connects systems together (the network). Mainframers had a hard time transitioning from their "host mentality" to a PC-centric world. In fact, if you're in the IT world and know a mainframe programmer, they're often referred to as "Dinosaurs".

This era obviously has its winners and losers. The big winner during the mainframe-to-pc transition was Intel. The big loser? IBM.

If you look at what CELL has to offer, you realize it's a computing model that leverages the resources of systems on the network. This is where the future of computing lies. This means that people who fail to embrace this new thinking will become the new "Dinosaurs", meaning Intel. Everyone thought IBM couldn't be toppled. 20 years ago people laughed when you told them the future of computing was that paltry little 286 you had sitting on your desk. But it happened.

The same thing will happen with technologies like Cell. Rambus is obviously innovating at a pace consistent with these new network-centric technologies. Rambus eventually abandoned simple DRAM design and expanded their horizons into chip-to-chip high-speed interfaces. They aren't sitting around applying band-aids to current technology to make it work a little faster. They're creating new technology that works several-fold faster.

Companies like Intel, AMD and SDRAM/DDR manufacturers are obviously working at a much slower pace - making incremental changes to their own existing designs. They are the new dinosaurs.

Forget about "32 bit versus 64 bit". Forget about "Intel vs. AMD". Forget about "DDR versus RDRAM". The future of computing simply isn't about that. It's about the network, and leveraging all of its resources to their fullest.

Don't be a dinosaur. That's suicide in the IT world.
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: DerKaiser
If you want to believe that a fixed non-royalty quarterly payment and no back royalties is a huge victory for Rambus, then you're more deluded than even your idiotic posts would indicate.

Please. I'm far from deluded.

Here's what we have left on the timeline:

1. Payne finds Rambus guilty of fraud. Rambus appeals to the federal circuit.
2. FTC sues Rambus
3. Federal Circuit rules in Rambus' favor
4. FTC rules in Rambus' favor
5. Judge rules in Rambus' favor and grants summary judgement of infringement against Hynix
6. Rambus and Infineon settle, meaning Payne's adverse rulings can no longer be used in the Micron or Hynix cases (it's like it never happened, since there was no ruling - Rambus still has the right to appeal which sends this case RIGHT BACK TO THE SAME FEDERAL CIRCUIT who ruled in their favor).

Smart move by Rambus if you ask me. Summary judgement is huge. And now that infineon's no longer fighting, Hynix has no leg to stand on legally since they can't use inferences from a case that was settled out of court.

Both Micron and Hynix will have to settle - but this time they'll have to do it on Rambus's terms.
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: DerKaiser
But people have been predicting that Rambus would get billions for years of back-royalties. Seems that since Rambus' entire case was recently thrown out, they had to settle for a lot less. Even with this additional revenue, Rambus' stock is still over-valued.

Rambus' case was thrown out by Judge payne after he blatantly defied the federal circuit's ruling. Again, you're using flawed logic.

If the case was thrown out, why would Infineon decide to start throwing $6M/quarter at Rambus?
 

DerKaiser

Senior member
Feb 12, 2002
460
0
0
If the case was thrown out, why would Infineon decide to start throwing $6M/quarter at Rambus?

If Rambus was owed hundreds of millions or billions of back royalties, why did they settle for 10s of millions?
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: DerKaiser
This opinion pretty much mirrors my opinion.

At the Yahoo RMBS message board, people seem pretty pissed off at this settlement.

It's another article that can't see the forest through the trees.

Everyone knew Judge Payne was the big obstacle. He kept screwing rambus at every turn. Everyone ELSE ruled in Rambus' favor.

Rambus no longer has to worry about Judge Payne. All that's left now is positive rulings. If you think THAT'S a bad thing, then it's certainly not me who's deluded.

If you say the future of computing lies in the hands of Micron and Hynix, or even Intel and AMD, it's definitely not me who's deluded.
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
0
0
Originally posted by: DerKaiser
If the case was thrown out, why would Infineon decide to start throwing $6M/quarter at Rambus?

If Rambus was owed hundreds of millions or billions of back royalties, why did they settle for 10s of millions?

They were owed hundreds of millions by Infineon, but billions by Micron and Hynix.

#1 memory manufacturer is samsung, who is a rambus licensee.
#2 is Micron
#3 is Hynix
#4 is Infineon. Now a licensee.

All that's left are the two biggest fish in the barrel, and they can't call on Payne's rulings anymore. Payne was the ONLY judge ruling against Rambus, and he's gone now.

Let's say you had 3 houses. one's worth a million. One's worth $500k. Another's worth $175k. The $175k house is costing you a fortune because crap keeps breaking, zoning problems, blah blah blah. Someone offers to give you $25k to take that problem off your hands forever, allowing you to focus on your other houses. You'd take that money too, and concentrate on your two remaining houses that are in good working order. Same thing goes for these cases.

Payne had no authority to throw out this case. He tried it once, he made huge errors and MADE A RULING based on those errors. The case was appealed, the errors uncovered, and the case was given back to him from a HIGHER court.

Then he threw it out.

HUH??

This means Rambus has to spend another year in appeals. Payne hates rambus and has shown obvious bias in every single one of his rulings. You'd have to be a complete moron to not see that.
 
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