Rapid drop in Petroleum prices could be a warning....

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
I'm wondering too what the us may do to protect our industry..

This is what I am wondering too, if the price war is sustained for very long. The current oil boom has been great for a lot of states, I also know a lot of people working in the oil industry. We have also seen this game from OPEC so many times, dump oil, destroy competition, restrict supply, rinse, repeat that I'd really hope we would be smart enough to protect ourselves from it again, even if it meant slightly higher gas prices today.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
On one hand this sucks as I have a fair amt of shale stocks I held too long and am getting nailed on. OTOH cheap gas is a huge win.

I am curious to where this goes. Venezuela, Russia, Nigeria, Iran, others rely on high oil prices to fund their govt. programs. We could be looking at massive unrest if the price war is sustained. You wonder what their responces will be.

I'm wondering too what the us may do to protect our industry..

Never buy individual stocks. Other people do this for a living; you don't.

Everyone on here thinks they are so smart they can outwit whoever else is trading. You can't, they think about this all day.

Invest in an index fund and call it a day.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,674
7,170
136
Never buy individual stocks. Other people do this for a living; you don't.

Everyone on here thinks they are so smart they can outwit whoever else is trading. You can't, they think about this all day.

Invest in an index fund and call it a day.

At my age, this is especially so true.
 

ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
485
53
91
Crude oil production peaked in 2005, which is why we are now resorting to shale oil. The problem is that the marginal cost for both is high, which is why debts and capital expenditures are rising. Both will certainly be affected by the lower price, which is caused by economic crisis. On top of that, shale oil is expected to peak in only a few years, much shorter than the period for crude oil.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
The US shale oil industry is in a world of hurt right now. Schlumberger is trying to join with Baker Hughes to survive.

States with budgets based on higher oil revenue such as Texas, Louisiana, North Dakota are in financial trouble too.

The smaller players will be hurt and it might be good long term for the bigger players as they can consumer the smaller ones.

Long term it might cause problems with state budgets, but not yet.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Crude oil production peaked in 2005, which is why we are now resorting to shale oil. The problem is that the marginal cost for both is high, which is why debts and capital expenditures are rising. Both will certainly be affected by the lower price, which is caused by economic crisis. On top of that, shale oil is expected to peak in only a few years, much shorter than the period for crude oil.

We produced more in almost every every past 2005. The peak is not quite here yet.
http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?product=oil&graph=production

So far most of the projections about shale output has been wrong.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
96
86
Never buy individual stocks. Other people do this for a living; you don't.

Everyone on here thinks they are so smart they can outwit whoever else is trading. You can't, they think about this all day.

Invest in an index fund and call it a day.


Hate to agree with the liberal, but this.
Some asshole in NYC is getting paid millions a year to do this all day, hes going to beat you more often than not.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
From time to time OPEC gets into these internal wars.
They eventually make up and come together after realizing the money they are missing out on.
In a year we all will be crying about $4+ gas at the pump again.
Just enjoy the savings while we can.
And hope America never becomes oil self sufficient because if you really want to see incredibly high oil prices, look to the greed of our own oil companies.
With no competition American oil would bankrupt us all.
OPEC is the only thing currently saving our ass.
 

ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
485
53
91
We produced more in almost every every past 2005. The peak is not quite here yet.
http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?product=oil&graph=production

So far most of the projections about shale output has been wrong.

Crude oil production peaked in 2005 (see the second chart):

http://crudeoilpeak.info/world-crude-production-2013-without-shale-oil-is-back-to-2005-levels

We have been resorting to shale oil since then.

According to the EIA and the IEA, shale oil production is expected to peak in a few years. Meanwhile, crude oil production may start dropping.

In order to maintain economic growth, we will need the equivalent of one Saudi Arabia every seven years. If the new oil put online has lower energy returns (which is the case for present crude oil and unconventional production), then more will be needed.

Finally, marginal costs require higher oil prices.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,570
7,631
136
Crude oil production peaked in 2005 (see the second chart):

http://crudeoilpeak.info/world-crude-production-2013-without-shale-oil-is-back-to-2005-levels

We have been resorting to shale oil since then.

According to the EIA and the IEA, shale oil production is expected to peak in a few years. Meanwhile, crude oil production may start dropping.

In order to maintain economic growth, we will need the equivalent of one Saudi Arabia every seven years. If the new oil put online has lower energy returns (which is the case for present crude oil and unconventional production), then more will be needed.

Finally, marginal costs require higher oil prices.

That shit is seriously depressing my outlook for the future.
The economy runs on energy, and you're saying time's up.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
From time to time OPEC gets into these internal wars.
They eventually make up and come together after realizing the money they are missing out on.
In a year we all will be crying about $4+ gas at the pump again.
Just enjoy the savings while we can.
And hope America never becomes oil self sufficient because if you really want to see incredibly high oil prices, look to the greed of our own oil companies.
With no competition American oil would bankrupt us all.
OPEC is the only thing currently saving our ass.

Crude oil production peaked in 2005 (see the second chart):

http://crudeoilpeak.info/world-crude-production-2013-without-shale-oil-is-back-to-2005-levels

We have been resorting to shale oil since then.

According to the EIA and the IEA, shale oil production is expected to peak in a few years. Meanwhile, crude oil production may start dropping.

In order to maintain economic growth, we will need the equivalent of one Saudi Arabia every seven years. If the new oil put online has lower energy returns (which is the case for present crude oil and unconventional production), then more will be needed.

Finally, marginal costs require higher oil prices.

Guess what all kinds of new tech have been introduced over the past century to enhance and expand what is possible to recover.

Where would we have peaked at without offshore? or injection wells? or pump lifts? or vertical fracking? steerable bits? the list goes on....
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
That shit is seriously depressing my outlook for the future.
The economy runs on energy, and you're saying time's up.

No, he is just saying he holding on peak oil as tight as can, even when reality says something different.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
http://www.globalresearch.ca/guess-...me-the-price-of-oil-crashed-like-this/5417215




The above text summarizes the gist of the article.

Seems interesting. Apparently some energy companies are funding the search for and extraction of petroleum via fracking. It's a rather expensive way to extract fuel so if the energy prices stay low for any length of time the junk bonds used to fund the their fracking activities could collapse and those junk bonds crash hard enough then it might be bad news.

It's also known that OPEC could very well be raging a price war to put the fracking industry in the North American continent out of business.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/28/7302827/oil-prices-opec




I'm concerned because all we did in 2008 was bail out the banks. Nothing was really done to address the causes (there is disagreement in the P&N forums about what the causes are of course) that led to the 2008 implosion, now a situation that occurred before the 2008 crash has cropped up again.

Maybe this will be the only thing from the economic climate before the crash of 2008 that recurs and nothing will happen... but it is something to be aware of in my opinion.



....
I read an article yesterday that indicated that lots of U.S. shale oil is profitable down to $40 a barrel.

Yes, oil-related securities will suffer from extended low oil prices. But there will be major winners, too. Like pretty much anyone who drives a fossil-fuel powered car. Like pretty much anyone who directly or indirectly uses fossil fuel for electricity.

And think of Russia and Iran and Venezuela and all of those oil sheikdoms. Can it possibly be a bad thing that the leaders of those countries will get all of the blame when cheap oil (further) decimates their economies?
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
And think of Russia and Iran and Venezuela and all of those oil sheikdoms. Can it possibly be a bad thing that the leaders of those countries will get all of the blame when cheap oil (further) decimates their economies?


Naaaa.....they'll all blame Obama.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,480
1,672
136
The article you linked doesn't support your claim:

Fern

I read the same thing in the article. I love it when somebody posts a article and doesn't read it completely. :biggrin:
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,436
211
106
Conventional oil peaked in 2005
NG to liquids , ethanol , tar sands , Venezuela heavy have added to the totals as has shale but shale is conventional oil that's just harder to get out.
So now in order to say peak oil is dead they say crude + condensates never mentioning the crude part isn't what has been going up its been the condensates part.

However that said there is still LOTS of oil, more expensive oil left to get, think apple tree, we picked the bottom off easy, now we need technology 'ladders' to get more but its harder and we will leave the apples at the top always there because it takes more energy to get than its worth 'helicopters'

That's the easy part how it will manifest itself into the future is anybody's guess
here's one
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...um-geologist-peak-oil-break-economy-recession
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Hate to agree with the liberal, but this.
Some asshole in NYC is getting paid millions a year to do this all day, hes going to beat you more often than not.
Managed funds consistently do worse than the S&P 500.

Judging by my Tesla deathwatch thread, I would say most people should never buy stocks. I made the bold (obvious) claim that a startup company with no earnings should trade at a significant discount to book value. People disagreed. According to ATOT, companies with negative cash flow are worth significantly more than companies with positive cash flow. These are the same people who bought shares of pets.com and AOL. These are the same people who bought sub-prime mortgage securities. These are the same people who bought 50 year old homes for half a million dollars and expected the price to magically go up. Cash flow? What's that?

Anyway, I always like to tell people how they can bet against me.
The way this works is very simple. My position is that the economy is getting worse and bankruptcies are likely to rise. If I'm wrong about this, high yield bonds will do exceptionally well JNK.

We'll know the recession is over when the fed decides to normalize interest rates. Bernanke said that will probably not happen during his life time. You know it's time to start worrying when Greenspan is telling people to buy gold.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
This is quite possibly the dumbest post ever. The large drop in 2008 wasn't because of the same reasons.

Saudi Arabia is playing hardball with competition and DELIBERATELY selling oil at extremely low prices in order to kill competition that can't afford to sell for that low. Honestly from a business perspective, smart move.

People are saying the Keystone Pipeline project to the gulf is dead thanks to the low prices it doesn't make it worth doing anymore. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-keystone-xl-pipeline-already-113000920.html
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Never buy individual stocks. Other people do this for a living; you don't.

Everyone on here thinks they are so smart they can outwit whoever else is trading. You can't, they think about this all day.

Invest in an index fund and call it a day.

Individual investments is absolutely fine on the side table.

While the majority of your investments should be in an Index fund for RETIREMENT sake, that is not what individual stock buying is about. It's about gambling on the chance of winning large.

Not everyone is looking to gain 5-7% YoY and would rather take chances. Albeit, we are talking chances in a Poker sense - skills do play a large factor. It's not a slot machine of picking a stock and hoping you get lucky. And no, we aren't talking about day trading. Things like that I agree is what Wall Street Investors are for.
 
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