Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

To me as a gamer, it made sense when overclocking gave +15% more fps, but now overclocking is not something I would ever consider for my gaming rig, as the benefits are minimal and the electricity prices are so high here in Europe.
Also all modern CPUs are in 99% not going to be limiting games, compared to the video card.

Well stated. I have all of my Ryzens in ECO with +200MHz. I get an overclock with lower heat and power use. There isn't a single game where I could tell you the difference though, since it doesn't make any perceivable difference to gameplay.

The respondents here, mostly represent a tiny niche, inside of our niche. Any effort to extrapolate that to the larger group falls flat for me. I did way too much client facing I.T. in my time to have delusions about the common PC gamers level of knowledge or needs. Heck, you can read PCMR and see how many have no clue beyond the meme level knowledge dispensed. Which is why I think the big tech tubers fail them by making these hyperbolic videos about how hot and power hungry Raptor is. They meme it, the others read the memes, and then it has a bad rep is doesn't deserve.

 

[dr1337]

In what world are reviewers immune from the game/software/driver bugs that MS, Nvidia, AMD, game developers, etc cannot even get right? As I type this there is a current thread on Ryzen 7000 issues with games and Windows 11: (2) Question - Windows 11 hobbling Ryzen 7000 performance | AnandTech Forums: Technology, Hardware, Software, and Deals

No review is ever more than a snapshot in time, and we all know performance can change for better or worse.

At some point you need to ask yourself why all of these 'journalists' aren't focusing in on these intel and nvidia bugs and instead only talk about the performance? Arent things like the XTU bug and nvidia driver overhead really big deals for the average diy/enthusiast consumer? Why wouldn't the headline be about the bugs? Because they know their testing is bad and don't care about the quality of their reporting, only the clicks and the money.

 

[ondma]

AMD failed to execute. Intel has failed to execute many times. Every time after their failures they wipe the floor with AMD. This should not be acceptable over at AMD. I hope AMD has saved their profits. They are going to need all that capital moving forward for R & D.

I just want to point out that Raptor Lake wasn't even on the Intel timeline. They added Raptor Lake in the last 18 months because their fabs were struggling with their process nodes. It's a stop gap product. Meteor Lake is going to be a problem for AMD because of the (intel 4) 7nm process. The core advantage will be gone for AMD when Meteor Lake arrives. I still think AMD will have an efficiency lead because 3nm is the next step.

Had AMD released the 3D v-cache with the Zen 4 release. They would have basically won the war with Intel for a second straight CPU generation.
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[/QUOTE]
I would not say intel has "wiped the floor" with AMD since the Bulldozer days. They have come back to be compete strongly in the consumer space while still drawing more power. I also think they will be in trouble with Zen 5 until Arrow Lake comes out. Meteor Lake seems like a non-competitive chip for the desktop. Now if they would put together two 6P+8E tiles for 12P plus 16E........ I think the criticism of the big/little architecture may be excessive by some, but eventually I think Intel will have to increase the P cores instead of just spamming E cores.

 

[nicalandia]

AMD failed to execute. Intel has failed to execute many times. Every time after their failures they wipe the floor with AMD.

What is this Nonsense?

 

[aigomorla]

well which ever side amd or intel comes out with a 18-24core HEDT that gives me at least 64 pci-e 5.0 lanes, and wont end up costing me enterprise parts prices, will probably take my money this gen.

Im not looking hopeful at ThreadRipper Pro, as it seems they want to inflate the prices on them to keep them competitive with EYPC.
And im not hopeful in Intel giving us anything but expensive W CPU's which i believe started at 3000 dollars, hence keeping on line with Enterprise prices.

But man.. i realy want a new HEDT platform that can hold me off at least a good 4-5 yrs, with ample PCI-E, and one that wont trip my breaker each time it loads up to 100%, or require me to install a dedicated 240V outlet so i can install a 2200W PSU.

 

[ondma]

HWUB tests the 13600K, and it includes DDR4 3600 for the gaming tests. In short AMD 7600x leads gaming by a tiny bit compared to the 13600K with DDR5 (He considers it essentially identical performance), but the gap increases when the 13600K uses DDR4.
In productivity workloads the 13600K is in a different class, it's often neck and neck with the 5950X. But he sticks with DDR5 here.

I dont really understand this video. The *cpu* price of the 7600x is fine. It is slightly faster in gaming (at least in this video, results seem all over the place with different sites) while being equal to or cheaper than the 13600k. Yes it gets destroyed in productivity, but for that use, I would move up the stack anyway. What AMD really needs is cheaper motherboards. I guess saying the cpu should be cheaper is the same thing in a way, but it is actually focusing on the wrong component, IMO.

Edit: one other factor, is that the 12600k probably has some overclocking headroom, while the 7600x is closer to maxed out, so there is that.

 

[Kocicak]

.... but eventually I think Intel will have to increase the P cores instead of just spamming E cores.

If you look at this picture, if they enlarged the die a little bit, they could fit 6 more P cores on it instead of 16 E cores. Are you sure these extra P cores could perform so well as all those lost E cores?

 

[Markfw]

well which ever side amd or intel comes out with a 18-24core HEDT that gives me at least 64 pci-e 5.0 lanes, and wont end up costing me enterprise parts prices, will probably take my money this gen.

Im not looking hopeful at ThreadRipper Pro, as it seems they want to inflate the prices on them to keep them competitive with EYPC.
And im not hopeful in Intel giving us anything but expensive W CPU's which i believe started at 3000 dollars, hence keeping on line with Enterprise prices.

But man.. i realy want a new HEDT platform that can hold me off at least a good 4-5 yrs, with ample PCI-E, and one that wont trip my breaker each time it loads up to 100%, or require me to install a dedicated 240V outlet so i can install a 2200W PSU.

Why don't you buy used EPYC ? I have a 24 core 7401 + motherboard for $550, or upgrade to 32 core 7601 for $200 more.

 

[yuri69]

Below is an AMD PowerPoint clearly shows Zen 4 5nm being released prior to 2022.

You are using server roadmap. Server "releases" have become utterly stupid in recent server gens. The big ones got the chips way ahead of the official launch.

However, you are right Zen 4 is kinda late and still reuses the same smarty Zen approach which can't catch the Goden Cove's raw power (albeit in edge cases).

 

[nicalandia]

Beat this MT Score Raptor Lake..



I'll See Myself Out...!

 

[Det0x]

Beat this Raptor Lake..

View attachment 69646

I'll See Myself Out...!

They take it easy with AVX2 with around 1500ST.
CPU-Z is not a good benchmark for a comparison eversince they updated it "for fairneess" which nerfed Zen performance-numbers with a modifier..

If you want a good AVX512 benchmark look no further then y-cruncher.. Think i took 16 core 2.5B WR by 2 seconds yesterday, just haven't released it yet

 

[nicalandia]

They take it easy with AVX2 with around 1500ST.
CPU-Z is not a good benchmark for a comparison eversince they updated it "for fairneess" which nerfed Zen performance-numbers with a modifier..

I was just being Silly. Raptor Lake can't touch or hope to compete against AMD's AVX-512 Performance because Intel went to the trouble to manually disable it to segment their market..!

 

[Exist50]

I was just being Silly. Raptor Lake can't touch or hope to compete against AMD's AVX-512 Performance because Intel went to the trouble to manually disable it to segment their market..!

It's not exactly segmentation when it can't be supported with E-cores...

 

[AtenRa]

HWUB tests the 13600K, and it includes DDR4 3600 for the gaming tests. In short AMD 7600x leads gaming by a tiny bit compared to the 13600K with DDR5 (He considers it essentially identical performance), but the gap increases when the 13600K uses DDR4.
In productivity workloads the 13600K is in a different class, it's often neck and neck with the 5950X. But he sticks with DDR5 here.

Is it just me or am I the only one to prefer the 8x P-core + 4x e-core 12700 over the 6x P-core +8x e-core 13600.

For example I would highly recommend the Core i7 12700KF vs Core i5 13600KF.

 

[nicalandia]

It's not exactly segmentation when it can't be supported with E-cores...

Atom cores used to support AVX-512 and SMT.. I think Intel just could not get Thread Director to perform well enough or within accepted performance to allow AVX-512 and SMT on those e cores.


On a different note. Have any of you owners of the new Raptor Lake CPUs beeing able to test what is the IPC boost on the Raptormont CPUs? AnandTech used to measure those details, but I have not found any Reviewers testing the IPC uplift from OG Gracemont Cove to Raptormont

 

[Heartbreaker]

Is it just me or am I the only one to prefer the 8x P-core + 4x e-core 12700 over the 6x P-core +8x e-core 13600.

For example I would highly recommend the Core i7 12700KF vs Core i5 13600KF.

Depends on price, Out of the box, the the 13600K looks faster overall, so unless the 12700K was cheaper, why go that way?

 

[Exist50]

Atom cores used to support AVX-512 and SMT.. I think Intel just could not get Thread Director to perform well enough or within accepted performance to allow AVX-512 and SMT on those e cores.

I think Xeon Phi is simply too different to draw meaningful about general purpose CPUs. And I doubt thread director, of all things, is the limiting factor. Why would it even care about AVX-512? As for SMT, they're willing to add even more complexity with a 3rd tier for MTL, so clearly they don't seem overly concerned about it.

I think the real tell is the Forest line. Probably far more important than Atom in client, so if there was actual value to justify adding those features, you'd think they'd do it.

 

[nicalandia]

So no Reviewers have tested the IPC of the Raptormont Cores? They have faster ring and Twice Cache$ per cluster.

Edit.
Never Mind The Hentai Loving OneRaichu Did test that long ago.. Average is 6% IPC(at ISO Speed) over OG Gracemont Cores, which is rather impressive performance boost if you add the 10% speed boost the combined performance boost is 16% at stock.

 

[AtenRa]

Depends on price, Out of the box, the the 13600K looks faster overall, so unless the 12700K was cheaper, why go that way?

The performance difference is negligible, you can slightly increase the clocks on the 12700k to match the performance and power consumption of 13600K but have 8 P-cores instead of 6.
Also the price is very close, at newegg the 13600k is $330 and 12700K at $365

Personally I prefer to have the extra 2 P-cores

 

[nicalandia]

The performance difference is negligible, you can slightly increase the clocks on the 12700k to match the performance and power consumption of 13600K but have 8 P-cores instead of 6.
Also the price is very close, at newegg the 13600k is $330 and 12700K at $365

Personally I prefer to have the extra 2 P-cores

Games will prefer faster and higher cache 13600K, 6 core is enough for gaming.

 

[nicalandia]

I think the real tell is the Forest line. Probably far more important than Atom in client, so if there was actual value to justify adding those features, you'd think they'd do it.

Yeah, I just checked and neider Grand Ridge(24 Core Atoms) nor Sierra Forest(200+ cores) will have AVX-512, Just not designed for it.

 

[badb0y]

Damn they wiped the floor with them (performance/price wise). AM5 needs a price cut to be competitive...

 

[Puffnstuff]

Right now I wish that I lived near a micro center as they have the 13900k for $569.99 in store only. EVGA shipped my CLC LGA 1700 AIO retention bracket a couple of days ago so I can keep using my AIO 360 cooler a little bit longer.

I'm going back to Intel for a variety of reasons and I'm also returning to Asus motherboards. It is also my hope to go back to Nvidia GPU's in the not so distant future and wash my hands of AMD for a little while.

Maybe a couple of black eyes will do them some good as their bios and driver support have been horrible during my time on AM4. My aib rx 6900 xt driver support has been horrible too!

 

[nicalandia]

Damn they wiped the floor with them (performance/price wise). AM5 needs a price cut to be competitive...

Wait until MTL-S Comes to market(If they even do) It will be their time to get Wiped Out...!! In the meantime The Chads rocking the 7800X3D Would still be within 5% of gaming top tier CPUs in 2024..

 

[ondma]

If you look at this picture, if they enlarged the die a little bit, they could fit 6 more P cores on it instead of 16 E cores. Are you sure these extra P cores could perform so well as all those lost E cores?

View attachment 69644

Would depend on the workload I assume. For embarrassingly multithreaded workloads, the E cores would probably be better. However, the E cores dont seem to benefit gaming much. With new generations of gpus coming out, dont you think 8P cores will eventually be insufficient for high end gaming? What they really need is a smaller and more power efficient P core.