Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Henry swagger]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589711496208347136

Raptor lake is great at Photoshop

 

[Timmah!]

No news on that 34 core "Raptor Lake" lately?

 

[JayMX]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589711496208347136

Raptor lake is great at Photoshop

I wouldn't trust Puget that much. Just look at the configurations they made those tests:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhC2WnjWQAArHF1?format=png&name=900x900

NH-U12a for cooling a 7950X/ 13900k along with DDR5-4800 ram.
Who would choose those parts to build a high-end content creation PC?

 

[Markfw]

I wouldn't trust Puget that much. Just look at the configurations they made those tests:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhC2WnjWQAArHF1?format=png&name=900x900

NH-U12a for cooling a 7950X/ 13900k along with DDR5-4800 ram.
Who would choose those parts to build a high-end content creation PC?

Exactly ! DDR5 6000 CL30 is now so cheap and available, that is a minimum. and my dark rock pro 4 is air cooling, even though many places use a 360 AIO. They did this to handicap the AMD chip. BS and worthless benchmarks.

 

[Exist50]

Exactly ! DDR5 6000 CL30 is now so cheap and available, that is a minimum. and my dark rock pro 4 is air cooling, even though many places use a 360 AIO. They did this to handicap the AMD chip. BS and worthless benchmarks.

They used the exact same RAM for Raptor Lake, which we also know benefits from faster memory.

And they also used the exact same cooler, which by your insistence would be "crippling" Raptor Lake more.

But even the slightest win for Intel has to be a conspiracy in your mind...

 

[Markfw]

They used the exact same RAM for Raptor Lake, which we also know benefits from faster memory.

And they also used the exact same cooler, which by your insistence would be "crippling" Raptor Lake more.

But even the slightest win for Intel has to be a conspiracy in your mind...

I know they used crap for both. I don't need your conspiracy theories here.

 

[dullard]

They used the exact same RAM for Raptor Lake, which we also know benefits from faster memory.

And they also used the exact same cooler, which by your insistence would be "crippling" Raptor Lake more.

But even the slightest win for Intel has to be a conspiracy in your mind...

I came to post this. Puget themselves say for photoshop that DDR5 memory speeds have a small difference. But of course, that means they are biased against AMD when both systems have memory lower than their fastest supported memory.

Interestingly enough, DDR5 doesn't make all that much of a difference in Photoshop. In most of the other applications we tested, DDR5 gave roughly a 10% increase in performance over DDR4, but for Photoshop the difference was within the margin of error.

Adobe Photoshop: 12th Gen Intel Core vs AMD Ryzen 5000 Series

Intel has launched their new 12th Gen Intel Core desktop processors (code-named "Alder Lake") featuring support for DDR5, PCIe 5.0, as well as a completely new hybrid architecture using a mix of Performance and Efficient-cores. Photoshop is largely single-threaded which may diminish the value of...

www.pugetsystems.com

 

[nicalandia]

No news on that 34 core "Raptor Lake" lately?

Nothing beside the Huge Monolithic die, but seeing how smaller Sapphire Rapids-SP tiles are getting 50% yields, that Huge 34 Core die might never see the light as a production SKU CPU.

 

[coercitiv]

For those complaining about the cooler used in the Puget Systems benchmark, they did your homework for you.

 

[JayMX]

They used the exact same RAM for Raptor Lake, which we also know benefits from faster memory.

If that holds true how do you explain the following numbers:

- Puget
13900k(DDR5 4800): 1660 overall score
7950x (DDR5 4800): 1532 overall score
diff: 8%


- The Verge
13900k(DDR5 6600): 1517 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1497 overall score
diff: 1%
(https://www.theverge.com/23410428/intel-core-i9-13900k-review)

- Techspot
13900k(DDR5 6400): 1612 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1523 overall score
diff: 6%
(https://www.techspot.com/review/2552-intel-core-i9-13900k/)

Both The Verge and Techspot used 360 AIO for cooling. All three testers run "PugetBench for Photoshop".

So how can a "decent cooling/ slow DDR5" system outperform a "good cooling/ fast DDR5 " system?
(Puget system got the top score)

 

[Exist50]

If that holds true how do you explain the following numbers:

- Puget
13900k(DDR5 4800): 1660 overall score
7950x (DDR5 4800): 1532 overall score
diff: 8%
View attachment 70610

- The Verge
13900k(DDR5 6600): 1517 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1497 overall score
diff: 1%
(https://www.theverge.com/23410428/intel-core-i9-13900k-review)

- Techspot
13900k(DDR5 6400): 1612 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1523 overall score
diff: 6%
(https://www.techspot.com/review/2552-intel-core-i9-13900k/)

Both The Verge and Techspot used 360 AIO for cooling. All three testers run "PugetBench for Photoshop".

So how can a "decent cooling/ slow DDR5" system outperform a "good cooling/ fast DDR5 " system?
(Puget system got the top score)

Given that that pattern is the same for both systems tested, and is a couple percent only, I'm inclined to dismiss it as merely run to run and test system variance, unless someone has a better theory.

 

[Exist50]

I know they used crap for both. I don't need your conspiracy theories here.

You were just insisting Puget was rigging the benchmarks against AMD, despite even your own claims about how poorly Raptor Lake supposedly performs without a 360mm AIO.

Your extraordinary bias is plain for everyone to see.

 

[Markfw]

Given that that pattern is the same for both systems tested, and is a couple percent only, I'm inclined to dismiss it as merely run to run and test system variance, unless someone has a better theory.

7% is NOT variance. 1-2% maybe. The fact that I did not comment on Raptor lake at first is only that I am not quite as familiar with Raptor lakes strengths and weaknesses. Regardless, when looking at the post I originally quoted, the first thing I said was "exactly". That they did not do a proper job of benchmarking.

 

[Exist50]

The fact that I did not comment on Raptor lake at first is only that I am not quite as familiar with Raptor lakes strengths and weaknesses.

You directly claimed they chose that setup to handicap AMD. Those are your own words.

 

[poke01]

You directly claimed they chose that setup to handicap AMD. Those are your own words.

Yeah it’s honestly baffling that many here have such positive bias towards AMD. Like AMD can never lose huh?

I know they used crap for both. I don't need your conspiracy theories here.

Also, Exist50 stated facts. You however were the one that said Puget did this to handicap AMD. Again, who is making up theories?

So when Puget both used the same RAM config for Intel and AMD and the same cooler, it’s somehow only a handicap for AMD and not Intel too.
Please go back to the AMD threads, you clearly don’t spend enough time in Intel threads to know Intel’s CPU strengths and weaknesses.

 

[pakotlar]

Yeah it’s honestly baffling that many here have such positive bias towards AMD. Like AMD can never lose huh?

Also, Exist50 stated facts. You however were the one that said Puget did this to handicap AMD. Again, who is making up theories?

So when Puget both used the same RAM config for Intel and AMD and the same cooler, it’s somehow only a handicap for AMD and not Intel too.
Please go back to the AMD threads, you clearly don’t spend enough time in Intel threads to know Intel’s CPU strengths and weaknesses.

Mark is a troll and the mods protect him.


User insults are not allowed in tech.

Moderator callouts are not allowed period.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[TheELF]

If that holds true how do you explain the following numbers:

- Puget
13900k(DDR5 4800): 1660 overall score
7950x (DDR5 4800): 1532 overall score
diff: 8%
View attachment 70610

- The Verge
13900k(DDR5 6600): 1517 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1497 overall score
diff: 1%
(https://www.theverge.com/23410428/intel-core-i9-13900k-review)

- Techspot
13900k(DDR5 6400): 1612 overall score
7950x (DDR5 6000): 1523 overall score
diff: 6%
(https://www.techspot.com/review/2552-intel-core-i9-13900k/)

Both The Verge and Techspot used 360 AIO for cooling. All three testers run "PugetBench for Photoshop".

So how can a "decent cooling/ slow DDR5" system outperform a "good cooling/ fast DDR5 " system?
(Puget system got the top score)

Puget actually uses intel settings while the others use "default out-of-the-box" they get thermal throttle and drop performance, while the puget system runs cooler and thus boosts higher all by itself.
They do the same for AMD systems.

Intel Core i9 13900K: Impact of MultiCore Enhancement (MCE) and Long Power Duration Limits on Thermals and Content Creation Performance

Intel's 13th Gen processors bring terrific performance across the board, but many modern processors have been criticized for their high power draw and heat output. However, we have found that most CPUs only operate at these high temperatures when the motherboard BIOS is allowed to automatically...

www.pugetsystems.com

They also explain why they use the ram they use.

Second, we are using DDR5-4800MHz memory for both the Intel 12th/13th Gen processors, as well as Ryzen 7000. While 4800MHz is the fastest supported RAM speed for the 12th Gen, the new 13th Gen processors technically support up to DDR5-5600MHz if you have one, single rank stick per channel, or DDR5-5200MHz otherwise.

Similarly, Ryzen 7000 supports DDR5-5200MHz if using one stick per channel, but without overclocking is technically limited to just DDR5-3600MHz if using 2 sticks per channel.

This mess of what RAM speeds are officially supported based on how many sticks you are using, and whether they are single or dual rank, makes it extremely hard to standardize on a single configuration. Luckily, most of the applications we test are not significantly affected by RAM speed as long as you don't take it too far, so we decided on using DDR5-4800MHz across the board.

 

[Exist50]

Puget actually uses intel settings while the others use "default out-of-the-box" they get thermal throttle and drop performance, while the puget system runs cooler and thus boosts higher all by itself.
They do the same for AMD systems.

Intel Core i9 13900K: Impact of MultiCore Enhancement (MCE) and Long Power Duration Limits on Thermals and Content Creation Performance

Intel's 13th Gen processors bring terrific performance across the board, but many modern processors have been criticized for their high power draw and heat output. However, we have found that most CPUs only operate at these high temperatures when the motherboard BIOS is allowed to automatically...

www.pugetsystems.com

They also explain why they use the ram they use.

So speaking within the bounds of stock, dual channel configs, they're actually speccing the Intel system below its max, while overclocking the AMD system. This is what some people here call "handicap[ping] the AMD chip", not that I'd expect a shred of intellectual honest from them at this point.

 

[Abwx]

So speaking within the bounds of stock, dual channel configs, they're actually speccing the Intel system below its max, while overclocking the AMD system. This is what some people here call "handicap[ping] the AMD chip", not that I'd expect a shred of intellectual honest from them at this point.

The bound is elsewhare than in the config settings, basically they use a software where Intel perform well, wich is not a problem, but then set it such that it doesnt use more than 8 threads, this way a 5950X FI cant make full usage of it s better scaling over 8T.

 

[Exist50]

The bound is elsewhare than in the config settings, basically they use a software where Intel perform well, wich is not a problem, but then set it such that it doesnt use more than 8 threads, this way a 5950X FI cant make full usage of it s better scaling over 8T.

Where do you see any such limitation on thread count?

 

[Abwx]

Where do you see any such limitation on thread count?

Because the 7700X perform the same as a 7950X.

Count ST perf as 100 and SMT gain as 20%, the 7700X will output 800 on 8 threads, if there s 10 threads it will output 840.

On the other hand a 7950X output 1000 on 10 threads, and there s no such delta between those two CPUs, when looking at the 7600X score it s clearly visiible that it s even barely 8 threads.

 

[Exist50]

Because the 7700X perform the same as a 7950X.

Count ST perf as 100 and SMT gain as 20%, the 7700X will output 800 on 8 threads, if there s 10 threads it will output 840.

On the other hand a 7950X output 1000 on 10 threads, and there s no such delta between those two CPUs, when looking at the 7600X score it s clearly visibible that it s even barely 8 threads.

So it's not that they impose some arbitrary limit on thread count, but rather that the applications in question are simply not embarrassingly parallel. That in no way invalidates the results.

 

[Abwx]

So it's not that they impose some arbitrary limit on thread count, but rather that the applications in question are simply not embarrassingly parallel. That in no way invalidates the results.

It s not that there s only a low thread count, it s that for some reason Photoshop seems to be exclusively optimised for Intel, FI a 12600K roughly match a 7950X in this app.

Computerbase tests with Photoshop show that there s something that is cache dependant since a 5800X3D perform better than the 10% higher clocked 5950X, rest is specific optimisation for Intel to explain such a discrepancy.

The difference between the 13900K and the 7950X is at least 60% better for the former, wich is telling that Photoshop is all but an equally optimised soft for both uarch, actually that s optimisation for one and litteraly unoptimisation for the other...

Core i9-13900K, i7-13700K & i5-13600K: Gaming-Könige im Test: Benchmarks in Apps

Intel Raptor Lake im Test: Benchmarks in Apps / So wurde getestet / Leistung in Single-Core-Lasten (klassisch)

www.computerbase.de

 

[TheELF]

Because the 7700X perform the same as a 7950X.

Count ST perf as 100 and SMT gain as 20%, the 7700X will output 800 on 8 threads, if there s 10 threads it will output 840.

On the other hand a 7950X output 1000 on 10 threads, and there s no such delta between those two CPUs, when looking at the 7600X score it s clearly visiible that it s even barely 8 threads.

You can't take a single thread score, multiply it, and come to any sort of conclusion.
It's not just the clocks that changes depending on how many cores are doing full work, or the SMT factor that changes depending on the workload, or how many different threads do different work.
It's also the cache thrashing and the mem bandwidth that different software create/need, let alone the cross CCX lag that can happen.

CPUs with fewer cores do run higher clocks and are often faster, we see that in game benches all the time.

 

[Abwx]

You can't take a single thread score, multiply it, and come to any sort of conclusion.
It's not just the clocks that changes depending on how many cores are doing full work, or the SMT factor that changes depending on the workload, or how many different threads do different work.
It's also the cache thrashing and the mem bandwidth that different software create/need, let alone the cross CCX lag that can happen.

CPUs with fewer cores do run higher clocks and are often faster, we see that in game benches all the time.

Same tests from Computerbase show the 8C 7700X at 1-2% better IPC on MT than a 8 + 0 12900K/13700K, so 70% advantage for a 13900K vs a 7950X is nothing that has to do with the CPU perf but with the software being exclusively, and highly, optimised for one uarch.