Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Kaluan]

What's up with only HUB having a review up? Weird embargo/review release thingy. lol

 

[Carfax83]

First 13900KS review. It was 2% faster in their gaming suite test compared to the 13900K.

Can't say I'm surprised. The 13900KS is more of a marketing statement than a technical achievement, the first CPU with the potential to hit 6ghz out of the box. Of course there are disclaimers associated with running 6ghz, like really good cooling, limited to 1 or 2 cores and in light workloads etcetera.

But honestly, even though I understand HWUB is reviewing the CPU as it is out of the box without messing with any voltages or anything, the 13900KS will be able to get much more mileage in the hands of a good tuner. My own CPU will do 5.3ghz sustained with heavy loads on air cooling because I have tweaked the voltages. In his review, the 13900KS looked like it was hitting a little less than 5.5ghz, which is the roughly the same all core boost as the standard 13900K.

We've already discussed ad nauseum that these CPUs are heavily overvolted out of the box. Reducing the voltages would reduce the temps (which would also reduce the power draw) significantly and allow that 13900KS to easily hit 5.7ghz all core frequency and sustain it I believe with a good AiO.

Custom water loop may allow close to 6ghz all core boost, but probably not sustained in heavy loads.

 

[Kocicak]

TEC Makes a User-friendly Comeback as the Cooler Master ML360 Sub-Zero Evo AIO CLC

Cooler Master is working with Intel to bring TEC cooling back to the PC mainstream under an Intel-designed standard. Back in the 2010s, the professional overclocking scene was pervaded with various sub-zero cooling methods including liquid-nitrogen or dry-ice evaporators, refrigerated cooling...

www.techpowerup.com

This might be what the KS needs.

You know that peltiers use more energy than they cool? So that to cool 250W you could need 300W on top, so that the total power consumption would be 550W? That is stupid and not responsible at all.

 

[Kocicak]

What's up with only HUB having a review up? Weird embargo/review release thingy. lol

HWUB managed to get their sample from other source than Intel representative. It seems that they did not send out any CPUs for reviews. They are probably not very proud of this product.

 

[Hulk]

My 13900K won't run in a stable manner under load over about 175W currently. Even with everything set to default in the BIOS. Communicating with Intel now...

 

[Hulk]

You know that peltiers use more energy than they cool?

Stupid 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

 

[Kocicak]

My 13900K won't run in a stable manner under load over about 175W currently. Even with everything set to default in the BIOS. Communicating with Intel now...

Just give it a little positive voltage offset (to test it, not to keep it). I stabilised my degraded CPU with just a tiny 20mV bump.

You may post your findings in my degradation thread:

Question - DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors. I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock...

forums.anandtech.com

BTW you dont have the Intel tuning utility installed by chance, if you do, get rid of it first.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You know that peltiers use more energy than they cool? So that to cool 250W you could need 300W on top, so that the total power consumption would be 550W? That is stupid and not responsible at all.

If the world were responsible, miners would get lifetime jail, along with other polluters, of course.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Stupid 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

If only Tesla were alive, we could use free energy to cool and boost our CPUs

 

[igor_kavinski]

My 13900K won't run in a stable manner under load over about 175W currently. Even with everything set to default in the BIOS. Communicating with Intel now...

Overheating? Could be the CPU die has gotten slightly bent due to not using contact frame (not sure if you are using it).

 

[Kocicak]

Overheating?

Nah, that is a plain old degradation. I developed a feeling that these CPUs are good for just 5 GHz. Seeing a 6 GHz CPU introduced today seems like a pure foolishness from Intel.

 

[Hulk]

I have a contact plate and a 280mm AIO currently outside of the case so it's not temps.
Just updated the BIOS to the latest and no change in behavior regarding restarts under load over 175W.

Waiting to hear back from Intel. First time in 30 years of building Intel rigs I've had an CPU issue. I don't want to rush to blame the entire Raptor Lake lineup as there is such a thing as manufacturing defects and legit warranty claims.

I was debating whether or not to even report this to the forum because there are people who might use this as "I told you so" about Intel. One or two bad reports out of a million and Intel or AMD or whatever company is "doomed." But in the end I think the forum is better served if we are absolutely honest regarding our experiences. That's the point of our tech camaraderie right?

 

[Carfax83]

Puget systems content creation review:

Puget Systems

Warning, it wasn't pretty! Some genius over there decided to use a Noctua NH-U12A to cool the 13900KS and we all know that's a recipe for disaster. How bad? CB23 10 minute test run was 32.6K.

Now I can personally attest that the Noctua NH-U12A is a very good heatsink as I have it in my system, but I bought it with the understanding that I was going to undervolt my CPU and tweak the PL. I also made sure I bought the best case for air cooled setups to pair it with and amplify the cooler's potential. That said, at stock voltages, even the regular 13900K is a no go with an air cooler unless the aforementioned precautions are taken much less a 13900KS.

What happened in this review is that he set the long duration PL to 150w and of course the CPU hit that limit like a 400lb dude at a Chinese all you can eat buffet after the restaurant owner called the cops to eject his fat ass and so predictably, performance suffered big time.....to the point where it loses against the 7950x.

These CPUs should really only be bought by hardware enthusiasts that know how to mitigate these issues, otherwise it's a waste of money.

 

[StinkyPinky]

First 13900KS review. It was 2% faster in their gaming suite test compared to the 13900K.

Looks like they didn't sample the CPU to anyone, kinda sums it up

 

[Timur Born]

I assume that the KS uses the same stock maximum turbo settings as the K, which means only 2 concurrent cores are allowed to be active to even clock to 6 GHz. This is a scenario that hardly ever happens anymore.

Once a third core is concurrently active it all drops down to 5.5 Ghz. This is a scenario that happens all the time. I even have to disable the AudioDG service to allow for real single-core scenarios, because of my Creative X-Fi driver.

The drop from 2x 60 to 3x55 is a big one, not even allowing 1-2 cores to stay at 60x while the third (and more) run at 55x. At least on paper it looks good, but in reality it struggles to get there (either KS or K, same problem).

 

[Mopetar]

If the world were responsible, miners would get lifetime jail, along with other polluters, of course.

Yeah, all of those people running their CPUs above 65W where they're at peak efficiency should be thrown in a gulag. All of the gamers using GPUs to guzzle power and generating waste heat to render pointless polygons and pretty pixels probably ought to just be round up and shot. Sheer needless pollution.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Just updated the BIOS to the latest and no change in behavior regarding restarts under load over 175W.

How can you be sure that the CPU is the cause of the restarts? Could be something else.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Looks like they didn't sample the CPU to anyone, kinda sums it up

Which means they don't want bad publicity from "honest" reviewers. Want people to just scoop up the few thousand units ASAP!

 

[igor_kavinski]

Yeah, all of those people running their CPUs above 65W where they're at peak efficiency should be thrown in a gulag. All of the gamers using GPUs to guzzle power and generating waste heat to render pointless polygons and pretty pixels probably ought to just be round up and shot. Sheer needless pollution.

Hey! Certified gamers are exempt from the Pollution Imprisonment Act

 

[Hulk]

How can you be sure that the CPU is the cause of the restarts? Could be something else.

Could be but unlikely. My system is lean. Quality components. Restarts only happen under high load in a variety of applications/benchmarks. I've been doing this (building PC's) for 30+ years. I'm pretty good at it. At 175W completely stable. 200W unstable. Last month 225W was stable.

 

[Hulk]

Puget systems content creation review:

Puget Systems

Warning, it wasn't pretty! Some genius over there decided to use a Noctua NH-U12A to cool the 13900KS and we all know that's a recipe for disaster. How bad? CB23 10 minute test run was 32.6K.

Now I can personally attest that the Noctua NH-U12A is a very good heatsink as I have it in my system, but I bought it with the understanding that I was going to undervolt my CPU and tweak the PL. I also made sure I bought the best case for air cooled setups to pair it with and amplify the cooler's potential. That said, at stock voltages, even the regular 13900K is a no go with an air cooler unless the aforementioned precautions are taken much less a 13900KS.

What happened in this review is that he set the long duration PL to 150w and of course the CPU hit that limit like a 400lb dude at a Chinese all you can eat buffet after the restaurant owner called the cops to eject his fat ass and so predictably, performance suffered big time.....to the point where it loses against the 7950x.

These CPUs should really only be bought by hardware enthusiasts that know how to mitigate these issues, otherwise it's a waste of money.

The only thing I'm really interested in knowing is if at a certain performance level the KS runs with less power than the K, on average. Meaning, am I getting a better binned part for my $120. I don't care about 6GHz on two cores that means absolutely nothing except for single thread benchmarks.

 

[igor_kavinski]

At 175W completely stable. 200W unstable. Last month 225W was stable.

Could be the motherboard traces supplying the voltage/current to CPU are getting degraded.

You need to test your CPU in a different mobo. If it still can't run at 200W, yes, we can say CPU is likely degraded.

 

[Hitman928]

The only thing I'm really interested in knowing is if at a certain performance level the KS runs with less power than the K, on average. Meaning, am I getting a better binned part for my $120. I don't care about 6GHz on two cores that means absolutely nothing except for single thread benchmarks.

According to HWUB review, the KS gets between 1 - 5% higher performance when both the K and KS are allowed to draw ~300 W.

 

[Hitman928]

Puget systems content creation review:

Puget Systems

Warning, it wasn't pretty! Some genius over there decided to use a Noctua NH-U12A to cool the 13900KS and we all know that's a recipe for disaster. How bad? CB23 10 minute test run was 32.6K.

Now I can personally attest that the Noctua NH-U12A is a very good heatsink as I have it in my system, but I bought it with the understanding that I was going to undervolt my CPU and tweak the PL. I also made sure I bought the best case for air cooled setups to pair it with and amplify the cooler's potential. That said, at stock voltages, even the regular 13900K is a no go with an air cooler unless the aforementioned precautions are taken much less a 13900KS.

What happened in this review is that he set the long duration PL to 150w and of course the CPU hit that limit like a 400lb dude at a Chinese all you can eat buffet after the restaurant owner called the cops to eject his fat ass and so predictably, performance suffered big time.....to the point where it loses against the 7950x.

These CPUs should really only be bought by hardware enthusiasts that know how to mitigate these issues, otherwise it's a waste of money.

Puget Systems is not my favorite source for performance reviews. I don't think they are biased or anything, but they make questionable choices in their test systems and seem to run into 'bugs' more often than any other reviewer.

 

[coercitiv]

Could be but unlikely. My system is lean. Quality components. Restarts only happen under high load in a variety of applications/benchmarks. I've been doing this (building PC's) for 30+ years. I'm pretty good at it. At 175W completely stable. 200W unstable. Last month 225W was stable.

That's just it, going by your criteria your CPU is more premium than your motherboard's power delivery for example. You're probably running lower Vcore with the 13900K than you did with the 12700K for the same package power. That means higher current and higher load on mobo power delivery. As long as the CPU is stable at high frequencies with fewer cores under load (so bellow 150-175W package power), you have a valid reason to check on power delivery as well.

I would at least check whether Vcore stays close to Core VID requests in HWinfo as power limit increases. If you see noticeable VDroop then maybe try a stronger LLC setting.