Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[TheELF]

Even with power reporting deviation hacks, that's not true. At all.

I'm not talking about power use but about the PBO PPT limit setting, it's the maximum allowed not the maximum achievable they put it on a ridiculously high amount so that the CPU can always draw as much as possible.
Over 9000...

PBO Enabled + Auto OC OR PBO Disabled: And Every Other...

www.overclock.net

 

[AlltheWay LeeWhy]

how come your pictures shows what appears to be a A2000 yet HWINFO is showing you with a polaris?

The RTX A2000 12GB variant arrived about 3weeks ago. Prior to that I was running an AMD WX-4100 (Polaris) Radeon Pro for 5.5years. The A2000 12GB only became available in North America in May 2022.

The build also began air-cooled, then moved to custom water.

Addendum: updated to the newest HWINFO, second image below recognizes the A2000 12GB.



------

Any interesting new morsels factoids tidbits on Raptor Lake? Had my head buried in the sand - working all week. lol

 

[Mopetar]

There are dumb gamer girls out there paying top dollar for the 12900K. Why bother when your power turd sells this well against the competition? They are not going to release a bigger chip and deal with the associated headaches (more power, less wafers per die, possibly more defects etc.) when the current die is working so well for them.

An 8+16 chip with moderate clocks would have a decent chance at beating out a 16C Zen 4 in the benchmarks where Alder Lake still lost even when fed over twice the power.

The extra performance the P cores would be able to get out of the power that 8 extra E cores would take just isn't worth it. It also means that Intel doesn't need to bin their top P core chips for this part either. Games don't really benefit much from the E cores so they can still sell a top gaming chip independent of an 8+16 chip.

It would be rather foolish of Intel not to have a 32T chip to stack up against AMD when customers are willing to shell out $800 for that top tier performance. That's ~$250 more than Intel has been able to ask for their chips since retiring their enthusiast/HEDT chips several years ago. There are probably more people who would pay for that than a top-end gaming CPU, especially when the x600K or even the x400 CPUs deliver most of the performance for well under half the price.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I'm not talking about power use but about the PBO PPT limit setting, it's the maximum allowed not the maximum achievable they put it on a ridiculously high amount so that the CPU can always draw as much as possible.
Over 9000...

I'm going to be charitable and tell you that you're grossly misinformed about a lot of things.

No that isn't done by default
No some EDC limit set to 9998 amps doesn't make the CPU actually try to use that much power

That's PBO.

In any case I encourage you not to invite thread derails by posting factually inaccurate statements like that, thank you.

 

[TheELF]

An 8+16 chip with moderate clocks would have a decent chance at beating out a 16C Zen 4 in the benchmarks where Alder Lake still lost even when fed over twice the power.

The extra performance the P cores would be able to get out of the power that 8 extra E cores would take just isn't worth it. It also means that Intel doesn't need to bin their top P core chips for this part either. Games don't really benefit much from the E cores so they can still sell a top gaming chip independent of an 8+16 chip.

It would be rather foolish of Intel not to have a 32T chip to stack up against AMD when customers are willing to shell out $800 for that top tier performance. That's ~$250 more than Intel has been able to ask for their chips since retiring their enthusiast/HEDT chips several years ago. There are probably more people who would pay for that than a top-end gaming CPU, especially when the x600K or even the x400 CPUs deliver most of the performance for well under half the price.

That's the rumors for the 13900k as you can see it's 8p and 16e cores.

Intel 13th Gen Core i9-13900K ES Benchmark Leaks Out: 10% Faster than the AMD Ryzen 9 5950X in Multi-Threaded Workloads | Hardware Times

Benchmarks of Intel’s next-gen Core i9-13900K processor have hit the web, showing the gains conferred by the additional Gracemont cores. The test was run using CPU-Z on an early engineering sample so do keep in mind that the single-threaded score will be notably lower than the final retail SKU...

www.hardwaretimes.com

I'm going to be charitable and tell you that you're grossly misinformed about a lot of things.

No that isn't done by default
No some EDC limit set to 9998 amps doesn't make the CPU actually try to use that much power

That's PBO.

In any case I encourage you not to invite thread derails by posting factually inaccurate statements like that, thank you.

On mobos that have settings at auto when you get them it's a possibility that this settings is set extremely high, I didn't say that this is "the default" I just said that it happens.

Also I didn't say that it will make the CPU actually try to use that much power, i said it's an upper limit so that the CPU isn't constrained and can use as much as it wants.
Yes that is PBO.
As long as you are not close to the limits PB keeps boosting and overriding the PB limits (PBO) means higher boosts.
Setting this to an extreme makes sure you get the highest boost your CPU is capable of.

Understanding Precision Boost Overdrive in Three Easy Steps

Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO) is a powerful new feature of the 2nd Gen AMD Ryzen⢠Threadripper⢠CPUs.â1 Much like traditional overclocking, PBO is designed to improve multithreaded performance. But unlike traditional overclocking, Precision Boost Overdrive preserves all the automated...

community.amd.com

• SoC Power (“PPT Limit”): measured in watts, the amount of power the CPU can draw before boost levels off
• VRM Current (“TDC Limit”): measured in amps, the amount of current we let the motherboard deliver to the CPU before boost levels off
• Temp (°C): measured in degrees Celsius, the temperature the CPU can reach before boost levels off

If the sensors detect that the CPU isn’t close to one of these limits, Precision Boost 2 sees opportunity to raise clockspeeds on as many cores as it can.

You should learn to try and understand what others are posting before speaking down to them, thank you good sir!

 

[Markfw]

Not that I believe or don't believe that cpuz benchmark, but the raptor lake will certainly be competing against Zen 4, 7950x in this case. I will wait for the official benchmarks after release.

 

[aigomorla]

The RTX A2000 12GB variant arrived about 3weeks ago

I so want that videocard, but i would probably get yelled at, because i would only use it for mining and nothing else.
But at least i wouldn't piss off the gamers on our forum, because it isn't a gaming card i would steal from them.

 

[AlltheWay LeeWhy]

I so want that videocard, but i would probably get yelled at, because i would only use it for mining and nothing else.
But at least i wouldn't piss off the gamers on our forum, because it isn't a gaming card i would steal from them.

The RTX A2000 12GB does not bring the greatest efficiency the miners are (or once were) looking for. The miners want the A2000 6GB version and were buying them up by the hundreds of thousands at one time, that's why I had to wait and wait for 9months to receive my workstation card.

My college roommate who works at Hewlett Packard Colorado advised me to stay away from ALL the 6GB variants believing they may have been used heavily for mining 6months to 9months and are either being resold as open box, or as brand new.

I simply wished for the greatest workstation video card for my typewriter build, so how did I become involved in all of this mess?

Well, I didn't. Cancelled my order from B&H NYC for the 6GB variant, may all of them eat grass with a stomach ache, waiting from October 2021 until May 2022, and then simply ordered the 12GB A2000 RTX from Newegg for $800 plus and that was the end of it.

------

Yea, it's a very cool looking card, I'm absolutely in love with the dbl-slot HHHL aesthetic. Here's an image from my slightly dusty test bench, leaving the SFF low-profile mounting in place, and removed the ATX PCIe crazy tall test bench mounting bracket.

 

[aigomorla]

Yea, it's a very cool looking card,

I would throw these guys on if i had that card:

RTX a2000 Copper Memory Plate | RTX GPU Memory Cooling Solutions

Now Shipping!Direct replacement for thermal pads -12c reduction from stock, 43.5mhs in rig with active fans, 70f ambient.

www.coolmygpu.com

They do keep the memory extremely nice and cool.
Every 10C reduction in temps effectively doubles the life on said IC, according to an Intel Engineer i once knew when i used to validate ES chips.

On my 3060Ti, the VRAM temps are lower then my core temps when mining.

Ok im gonna show myself out as i just said the M word in the CPU section.

Not that I believe or don't believe that cpuz benchmark, but the raptor lake will certainly be competing against Zen 4, 7950x in this case. I will wait for the official benchmarks after release.

I heard that Raptor-Lake X (Saphire Rapids) the HEDT version will have a major price advantage over Threadripper, but not have as many cores. Its also a W series, which i hope they did not kill overclocking on, like they did with ThreadRipper PRO.
Im really sitting on the edge on which HEDT i will be on the end of this year.
But i want to see exactly what a HEDT version of these cpu's will be, yet almost no info is given in regard to them.

 

[DrMrLordX]

On mobos that have settings at auto when you get them it's a possibility that this settings is set extremely high, I didn't say that this is "the default" I just said that it happens.

If you want an education, go ask how many motherboards actually do that in the appropriate builder's thread.

You should learn to try and understand what others are posting before speaking down to them, thank you good sir!

That's rich.

 

[eek2121]

On mobos that have settings at auto when you get them it's a possibility that this settings is set extremely high, I didn't say that this is "the default" I just said that it happens.

This is factually incorrect. I have built dozens of AMD systems using boards from nearly every vendor, and all of them use stock behavior (142W PPT) when PBO is set to auto. If you know of a vendor that does not do this, then name and shame them in the motherboards section.

 

[AlltheWay LeeWhy]

I would throw these guys on if i had that card:

RTX a2000 Copper Memory Plate | RTX GPU Memory Cooling Solutions

Now Shipping!Direct replacement for thermal pads -12c reduction from stock, 43.5mhs in rig with active fans, 70f ambient.

www.coolmygpu.com

View attachment 63890

They do keep the memory extremely nice and cool.
Every 10C reduction in temps effectively doubles the life on said IC, according to an Intel Engineer i once knew when i used to validate ES chips.

On my 3060Ti, the VRAM temps are lower then my core temps when mining.

Ok im gonna show myself out as i just said the M word in the CPU section.

Just passed the 30day return window with the A2000, no issues at all so - time for some mods. That copper mod is only $18.99. There's also a fan cable mod, simply running the GPU fan using an external cable to the Aquaero 6 LT fan controller.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S4L41TN?ie=UTF8&psc=1&linkCode=sl1&tag=dttj-20&linkId=c5803463cc783dde3c5e953fd9fa35a6&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl

I apologize for moving off topic.

Who's buying the Z790 Apex for Raptor Lake?
Is it only a rumor or did Intel name the upcoming Raptor Lake i5 13500K instead of 13600K?

 

[TheELF]

Not that I believe or don't believe that cpuz benchmark, but the raptor lake will certainly be competing against Zen 4, 7950x in this case. I will wait for the official benchmarks after release.

Which will be running 230W PPT, unless the 230W was for the mainline and the 7950x is going to draw even more or is the x950 considered mainline?
And if the 7950x turns out to be as bad in temps as the 5950x it's going to be very bad, 80 degrees at 122W you gonna need some serious cooling to run that at 230W.

Hardware & Tech News - OC3D.net

OC3D is where you can find the latest PC Hardware and Gaming News & Reviews. Get updates on GPUs, Motherboards, CPUs, and more.

overclock3d.net

 

[Markfw]

Which will be running 230W PPT, unless the 230W was for the mainline and the 7950x is going to draw even more or is the x950 considered mainline?
And if the 7950x turns out to be as bad in temps as the 5950x it's going to be very bad, 80 degrees at 122W you gonna need some serious cooling to run that at 230W.

Hardware & Tech News - OC3D.net

OC3D is where you can find the latest PC Hardware and Gaming News & Reviews. Get updates on GPUs, Motherboards, CPUs, and more.

overclock3d.net

First, you create this post all about the 7950x in a Raptor lake thread... Not good. And you are assuming that the 7950x is 230w ppt, NO, the socket AM5 is. From your own article:

"AMD would like to issue a correction to the socket power and TDP limits of the upcoming AMD Socket AM5. AMD Socket AM5 supports up to a 170 W TDP with a PPT up to 230 W. TDP*1.35 is the standard calculation for TDP v. PPT for AMD sockets in the "Zen" era, and the new 170 W TDP group is no exception (170*1.35=229.5). "

As for the temps and the rest, I will wait for the official Raptor lake and Zen 4 reviews...

You really do like to troll don't you.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I hope we don't get to 100 pages in this thread speculating/bickering before the actual reviews hit the web

 

[AlltheWay LeeWhy]

I hope we don't get to 100 pages in this thread speculating/bickering before the actual reviews hit the web

LOL. We could at least discuss what each of us is planning.

What components are on your purchase list for the Raptor Lake update?

What I'm hoping for:

-Asus ROG Z790 Apex motherboard - hoping ROG adds onboard support for PCIe 5.0 M.2 SSDs, at least the one slot occupying the "north bridge" area between CPU socket and graphics card #1.

-WD_Black PCIe 5.0 M.2 SSD with 13,000MB/s to 14,000MB/s READ speeds

-Gskill Hynix 2-dimm mem kits at XMP 7000Mhz CL36

-Intel 13500K i5 stock boost of 5.0Ghz or 5.1Ghz
-Intel 13900KS i9 (later in December/January) stock boost of 5.6Ghz or 5.8Ghz

Is that too much to ask for?

------

What I'm running now for primary OS SSD - WD_Black SN850 PCIe 4.0 with almost 7,000MB/s READ speeds

 

[igor_kavinski]

I don't think Intel can sway me to Raptor Lake with Zen 4 V-cache edition supposed to be releasing by end of this year. But benchmarks first, decisions later.

 

[JasonLD]

Zen 4 V-cache edition supposed to be releasing by end of this year.

I think that is unlikely happen until next year. Only the "vanilla" editions are happening this year it seems.

 

[igor_kavinski]

-Intel 13900KS i9 (later in December/January) stock boost of 5.6Ghz or 5.8Ghz

Is that too much to ask for?

KS in January seems too early. I would say March/April 2023. Intel will want to tweak it to the max to win at least some benchmarks, if not all of them in case Zen 4 turns out to be the big bad monster of Intel's nightmares.

 

[ZGR]

@TheELF

With any Z motherboard from Intel or a B/X motherboard from AMD, you can enter BIOS and put the power limits to insane values. I set my i7-5775C to have unlimited power limit budget in BIOS to make it never throttle and it would suck over 100W in some games. But under Prime95, it would throttle nearly immediately due to the high voltage.

There are no motherboard manufacturers making the default values for Intel/AMD to have unlimited power budget. That is insanity and requires the user to manually do that. I find tuning the hardware is an enjoyable experience about PC building.

Posting FUD about one manufacturer over and over makes anything posted hard to trust.

 

[jpiniero]

There are no motherboard manufacturers making the default values for Intel/AMD to have unlimited power budget.

I doubt it. I'd assume Z boards are unlimited by default.

 

[ZGR]

I doubt it. I'd assume Z boards are unlimited by default.

The default power limits are from the CPU I believe. So a 12900 should have its default power limits in a Z motherboard unless the user changes them. But I do remember Asus (prob a couple others) did 'cheat' a bit in the past.

 

[jpiniero]

The default power limits are from the CPU I believe. So a 12900 should have its default power limits in a Z motherboard unless the user changes them. But I do remember Asus (prob a couple others) did 'cheat' a bit in the past.

The board is always in control. That's even the case for laptops. The only default limit is the multiplier lock which is a separate issue.

 

[Exist50]

The default power limits are from the CPU I believe. So a 12900 should have its default power limits in a Z motherboard unless the user changes them. But I do remember Asus (prob a couple others) did 'cheat' a bit in the past.

The CPU has no in-built knowledge of power limits. That's entirely up to the board. And mobo manufacturers can and have set absurd, even unlimited values to juice the benchmarks. Searching "multi core enable" should provide some reading. Certainly they do not necessarily hold to Intel's recommendations.

Intel TDP Investigation: Boards Violating Turbo Duration (Z390) | GamersNexus

stub Intel’s TDP has long been questioned, but this particular generation put the 95W TDP under fire as users noticed media outlets measuring power consumption at well over 100W on most boards. It isn’t uncommon to see the 9900K at 150W or more in some AVX workloads, like Blender, thus...

www.gamersnexus.net

 

[ZGR]

The CPU has no in-built knowledge of power limits. That's entirely up to the board. And mobo manufacturers can and have set absurd, even unlimited values to juice the benchmarks. Searching "multi core enable" should provide some reading. Certainly they do not necessarily hold to Intel's recommendations.

Intel TDP Investigation: Boards Violating Turbo Duration (Z390) | GamersNexus

stub Intel’s TDP has long been questioned, but this particular generation put the 95W TDP under fire as users noticed media outlets measuring power consumption at well over 100W on most boards. It isn’t uncommon to see the 9900K at 150W or more in some AVX workloads, like Blender, thus...

www.gamersnexus.net

A motherboard that follows Intel's guidelines should provide the correct power limits for the CPU though, right? So a 12900 non k should get the stock power limits on a Z motherboard that is following Intel's guidelines? Edit: I guess I am just curious if the same motherboard manufacturers pushing power in Z390 era are doing same things now.