Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[pakotlar]

You mean competition in a 2 horse race, that's minimalist competition 101.

No, every server-validated ARM chip manufacturer is competing with Intel and AMD for coveted cloud vendor business, and one of the most populr laptop vendors now has a fully ARM lineup that differentiates on performance and power efficiency. Intel and AMD view ARM chip vendors as competition. In the future that will expand to other non-x86 ISA, like RISC-V (which Intel is invested in).

 

[eek2121]

You mean competition in a 2 horse race, that's minimalist competition 101.

ARM or RISCV vendors are welcome to step in any time. I would throw dollars at either, provided they either offer an upgradable ATX design, or an SBC with competitive performance.

 

[poke01]

ARM or RISCV vendors are welcome to step in any time. I would throw dollars at either, provided they either offer an upgradable ATX design, or an SBC with competitive performance.

Yeah that ain't happening in desktop anytime soon. x86 will remain dominant in desktop. However, in laptops ARM and RISC-V may gain market share.

 

[Hulk]

You mean competition in a 2 horse race, that's minimalist competition 101.

True but at least horses in a two horse race actually run. Remove one horse from that race and there is no race.

 

[nicalandia]

More leaks of Raptor Lake..

Intel Raptor Lake Core i9-13900K & Core i5-13600K CPU Benchmarks Leaked: 13th Gen Core i9 Up To 10% Faster Than 5950X, i5 Up To 97% Faster Than 5600X

The latest performance benchmarks of Intel's Core i9-13900K and Core i5-13600K Raptor Lake Desktop CPUs have leaked.

wccftech.com

Let see if they can release Raptor Lake before Ryzen 7000

 

[shady28]

More leaks of Raptor Lake..

Intel Raptor Lake Core i9-13900K & Core i5-13600K CPU Benchmarks Leaked: 13th Gen Core i9 Up To 10% Faster Than 5950X, i5 Up To 97% Faster Than 5600X

The latest performance benchmarks of Intel's Core i9-13900K and Core i5-13600K Raptor Lake Desktop CPUs have leaked.

wccftech.com

Let see if they can release Raptor Lake before Ryzen 7000

13600K will be my next CPU. Multi-threads like a 12700K, single threads like a 12900K.

 

[Markfw]

More leaks of Raptor Lake..

Intel Raptor Lake Core i9-13900K & Core i5-13600K CPU Benchmarks Leaked: 13th Gen Core i9 Up To 10% Faster Than 5950X, i5 Up To 97% Faster Than 5600X

The latest performance benchmarks of Intel's Core i9-13900K and Core i5-13600K Raptor Lake Desktop CPUs have leaked.

wccftech.com

Let see if they can release Raptor Lake before Ryzen 7000

They compare only to Zen3, NOT Zen 4, which it will be competing against.....And no mention of power usage at all.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Most buyers by FAR do not build their own PCs. Instead, most buyers get their computers from OEMs and never upgrade CPUs. Therefore, you need another way to prove your claim that most Raptor Lake buyers will be Alder Lake users.

Yea but those users also don't care much about performance or having the latest. We do.

I am one of those that build but only upgrade after a substantial change. Going to RPL from ADL is a waste of money in my eyes. Actually it would take me something like the Royal Cove architecture to convince me to move from ADL.

 

[nicalandia]

They compare only to Zen3, NOT Zen 4, which it will be competing against.....And no mention of power usage at all.

That is the standard procedure. To compare it to available CPUs, so far the only one doing comparisons for unreleased CPUs are Yuuki_AnS who is comparing Genoa vs SPR..

If Zen4 drops first, you can bet they will compare it with Alder Lake in comparison charts

 

[Asterox]

They compare only to Zen3, NOT Zen 4, which it will be competing against.....And no mention of power usage at all.

That will somehow have to be pushed under the carpet.But the Blue carpet is not that strong.

Raptor Lake from the point of new users, main problem is this is the last CPU generation in 1700 socket.

In you step in AM5, you now that this is new platform and motherboard will last at least three years or CPU generations.

 

[dullard]

Yea but those users also don't care much about performance or having the latest. We do.

I am one of those that build but only upgrade after a substantial change. Going to RPL from ADL is a waste of money in my eyes. Actually it would take me something like the Royal Cove architecture to convince me to move from ADL.

We do care about performance and we do care about having the latest. But, OEM buyers can also care. They just often have other cares (total cost, ease of purchasing, time to usable computer, etc) and come up with a different optimum choice. But even if your statement was correct for everyone who buys OEM computers, it still doesn't make the original comment correct--the majority of Raptor Lake buyers will NOT be Alder Lake users upgrading their CPU. Many Raptor Lake buyers will be people who just ordered the latest from Dell or Lenovo.

Over decades, I have upgraded every single part possible in a computer except just the CPU. There just has never been a good reason for me to upgrade just the CPU. I get the best value CPU and that best value optimum doesn't change since CPUs don't drop much in price until years have passed. By the time CPUs do drop in price significantly it has always been worth upgrading the motherboard as well for major changes (new drives, new USB ports, new memory, faster or more PCI lanes, etc). I'm not the type of person to dump hundreds of dollars into a computer for a ~20% speed boost.

About the only type of person who would find upgrading Alder Lake to Raptor Lake is someone like Markfw. Raptor Lake's single threaded performance would barely be worth upgrading from Alder Lake, but if you are very concerned with multithreaded performance, and are unhappy with Alder Lake, then an upgrade might be worth it. That describes Markfw perfectly. And even then it would only be because his 4 E cores is a horrible situation to be in. But, I just can't see that being that many people who do it though.

 

[LightningZ71]

SUPPOSED to last. That is not certain.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Raptor Lake from the point of new users, main problem is this is the last CPU generation in 1700 socket.

It may be Intel's last "true" desktop CPU for awhile, unless they do something surprising with Meteor Lake. Arrow Lake may be Raptor Lake's successor.

(and no, I wouldn't count a 6+8 desktop Meteor Lake as a worthy successor, but that's just me)

 

[Markfw]

We do care about performance and we do care about having the latest. But, OEM buyers can also care. They just often have other cares (total cost, ease of purchasing, time to usable computer, etc) and come up with a different optimum choice. But even if your statement was correct for everyone who buys OEM computers, it still doesn't make the original comment correct--the majority of Raptor Lake buyers will NOT be Alder Lake users upgrading their CPU. Many Raptor Lake buyers will be people who just ordered the latest from Dell or Lenovo.

Over decades, I have upgraded every single part possible in a computer except just the CPU. There just has never been a good reason for me to upgrade just the CPU. I get the best value CPU and that best value optimum doesn't change since CPUs don't drop much in price until years have passed. By the time CPUs do drop in price significantly it has always been worth upgrading the motherboard as well for major changes (new drives, new USB ports, new memory, faster or more PCI lanes, etc). I'm not the type of person to dump hundreds of dollars into a computer for a ~20% speed boost.

About the only type of person who would find upgrading Alder Lake to Raptor Lake is someone like Markfw. Raptor Lake's single threaded performance would barely be worth upgrading from Alder Lake, but if you are very concerned with multithreaded performance, and are unhappy with Alder Lake, then an upgrade might be worth it. That describes Markfw perfectly. And even then it would only be because his 4 E cores is a horrible situation to be in. But, I just can't see that being that many people who do it though.

BTW, I have to add, that for the second time, I have an application that uses avx512, and it does 80% of the units, and 73% of total performance of the 5950x due to that. 8 golden cove cores vs 16 Zen3. Not bad. And since it uses avx512 only part of the time(looks like 5.2 seconds), its not sucking a lot of power ! This is for those that say I hate alder lake(@Exist50 for one), I am saying something good, remember it ! And yes, the 4 e-cores have to be and are disabled.

Details for those that know what all this means

<core_client_version>7.16.6</core_client_version>
<![CDATA[
<stderr_txt>
BOINC PrimeGrid wrapper 2.02 (Nov 17 2020 23:46:30)
running ../../projects/www.primegrid.com/sllr2_1.1.0_linux64_201114 -v
LLR2 Program - Version 1.1.0, using Gwnum Library Version 29.8
running ../../projects/www.primegrid.com/sllr2_1.1.0_linux64_201114 -oGerbicz=1 -oProofName=proof -oProofCount=32 -oProductName=prod -oPietrzak=1 -oCachePoints=1 -pSavePoints -q643*2^3281390+1 -d -t2 -oDiskWriteTime=1
Starting Proth prime test of 643*2^3281390+1
Using all-complex AVX-512 FFT length 240K, Pass1=640, Pass2=384, clm=1, 2 threads, a = 3, L2 = 399*257, M = 102543
Compressed 32 points to 5 products. Time : 5.204 sec.
Testing complete.
11:32:33 (1389822): called boinc_finish(0)

</stderr_txt>
]]>

 

[nicalandia]

BTW, I have to add, that for the second time, I have an application that uses avx512, and it does 84% of the total performance of the 5950x due to that. 8 golden cove cores vs 16 Zen3. Not bad. And since it uses avx512 only part of the time, its not sucking a lot of power ! This is for those that say I hate alder lake, I am saying something good, remember it ! And yes, the 4 e-cores have to be and are disabled.

Raptor Lake will have AVX-512 Fused all together. Zen4 will have AVX-512(ES Genoa was showing impressive performance)

 

[LightningZ71]

The sad part there Mark is that Intel disabled avx512 in later chips in that generation and most likely Raptor follows suit. The one good point it has was broken intentionally.

 

[Markfw]

The sad part there Mark is that Intel disabled avx512 in later chips in that generation and most likely Raptor follows suit. The one good point it has was broken intentionally.

Well, another reason I will have Zen 4. BUT, I was honest about what it is doing now, which is primegrid project "Proth Prime Search LLR (PPS)". See above for more details.

 

[lobz]

8 cores are probably better able to get good PPW than 6 (can afford lower clocks, lower voltage, so quadratic reduction in power)

And also relatively smaller impact of the SoC/IOD's consumption.

 

[IntelUser2000]

@dullard I agree with you. Because it doesn't make sense for such a small upgrade. 30% is not much, especially for MT to spend $600 on. Your needs need to be rather specific, such as rendering directly gating the throughput of your work. That's a small fraction of people. 30% even for ST is marginal. Think twice that for ST, otherwise it's about the GPU and memory for things like gaming. 4-5 year upgrade cycle still applies. If you have that much discretionary income then the upgrade is about the pleasure of building.

BTW, I have to add, that for the second time, I have an application that uses avx512, and it does 80% of the units, and 73% of total performance of the 5950x due to that. 8 golden cove cores vs 16 Zen3. Not bad. And since it uses avx512 only part of the time(looks like 5.2 seconds), its not sucking a lot of power ! This is for those that say I hate alder lake(@Exist50 for one), I am saying something good, remember it ! And yes, the 4 e-cores have to be and are disabled.

You don't hate the chip, you don't like the company(intel). You are logical enough that you buy a product when it's good enough and most do.

 

[nicalandia]

@dullard You don't hate the chip, you don't like the company(intel). You are logical enough that you buy a product when it's good enough and most do.

What is Intel's last strong hold? Optane memory?

 

[Markfw]

@dullard I agree with you. Because it doesn't make sense for such a small upgrade. 30% is not much, especially for MT to spend $600 on. Your needs need to be rather specific, such as rendering directly gating the throughput of your work. That's a small fraction of people. 30% even for ST is marginal. Think twice that for ST, otherwise it's about the GPU and memory for things like gaming. 4-5 year upgrade cycle still applies. If you have that much discretionary income then the upgrade is about the pleasure of building.



You don't hate the chip, you don't like the company(intel). You are logical enough that you buy a product when it's good enough and most do.

I have not liked the company since 1990. BUT I bought their chips from about 2006 to 2017 when they were the best. I bought a 486 and a 486-2 66, but after that, the AMD chips were "good enough" and cheaper. I got the 12700F to try it out and be able to be honest in evaluating it. The chip (for the money, $325) is OK, but for my purposes, the 5950x and the EPYC chips work much better, and every other Zen chip since 2017.. I posted this, since for once, it was doing OK. I honestly do NOT like Alder Lake, and suspect that I will not like Raptor Lake.

 

[Exist50]

I have an application that uses avx512, and it does 80% of the units, and 73% of total performance of the 5950x due to that. 8 golden cove cores vs 16 Zen3. Not bad. And since it uses avx512 only part of the time(looks like 5.2 seconds), its not sucking a lot of power ! This is for those that say I hate alder lake(@Exist50 for one), I am saying something good, remember it !

While I'm glad you're finally being honest about how Alder Lake performs, that's generally considered the bare minimum to even have a rational opinion on a topic.

You don't hate the chip, you don't like the company(intel). You are logical enough that you buy a product when it's good enough and most do.

I'd argue that for many of these "perma-bears" the latter leads to the former. How many people did we see here go from mocking the idea of Gracemont being ~4GHz with Skylake IPC as absurdly, unrealistically high, to immediately dismissing it as useless when that proved correct? Bonus points for that stint where some actually blamed the E-cores for a stuttering mouse. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

It may be Intel's last "true" desktop CPU for awhile, unless they do something surprising with Meteor Lake. Arrow Lake may be Raptor Lake's successor.

I think this is the real problem with Raptor Lake, or rather its role in Intel's lineup. As a short term stop-gap for a good but delayed Meteor Lake, it would be ok, but instead we're looking at Raptor Lake having to hold down the desktop market till goodness knows when in '24. It might be able to be a viable option vs some Raphael SKUs (depending how stingy AMD is with core counts sub-flagship), but then there's Raphael-X later and quite possibly Zen 5 before Arrow Lake makes it to market.

 

[Exist50]

I am one of those that build but only upgrade after a substantial change. Going to RPL from ADL is a waste of money in my eyes. Actually it would take me something like the Royal Cove architecture to convince me to move from ADL.

In good time.

 

[Hotrod2go]

13600K will be my next CPU. Multi-threads like a 12700K, single threads like a 12900K.

+1, that should be a good chip for gamers no doubt.

 

[IntelUser2000]

The chip (for the money, $325) is OK, but for my purposes, the 5950x and the EPYC chips work much better, and every other Zen chip since 2017.. I posted this, since for once, it was doing OK. I honestly do NOT like Alder Lake, and suspect that I will not like Raptor Lake.

Yet you bought it. That means you like it enough. Also from a seller's POV, they achieved their goal. it's a silly argument. How many here will spare a dime to a stranger? Yet they spend hundreds on a product from a company they don't like? No, money speaks.

In good time.

I have IVB XPS 12, 2600K WoW system turned into HTPC system that's now my GPU diagnostic system, and CFL based Celeron that I sometimes stick in RX 470 8GB to play games like SC2 and No Man's Sky.

My demands have plummetted but I'd love a Meteorlake 5W 2-in-1 weighing under 2.5lbs and great battery life for a replacement to this XPS. This assumes I have enough discretionary income and is good as I am "betting" on. I hope Microsoft also pulls it's head out of it's ass because their "Tablet" mode is an embarassment. It's been bad since 8, and an arguable sidegrade all the way to 11.