Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Hulk]

AMD pricing would put that at over 6000 dollars.... seeing how much a 64core threadripper pro cost.
Can't think of how many people would drop a 6000 dollar cpu.



Mark i completely agree with you on the concept that the 7950X is a great multithreaded cpu with better efficiency, but gamers do not care about this word called efficiency. To a gamer, overclocking, and pushing that envelope is more important then how efficient the cpu is.
This is why overclockers for the longest time, throw LN2, or try to bring sub ambient into the equation and completely break that 4th wall we call efficient.

You need to think this from a gamers perspective.
Whatever comes first, even tho its strapped to Nitros, and has a MPG of 1, as long as it comes first, is the winner.
This is what intel has done.
They unloaded all the stop gaps, pulled all the restrictions, pulled us back to prescott era, where they gave us something that can do it, as long as we can try to keep it in check.

Completely wrong in my book, but to a gamer, its completely normal.

I was putting a little levity into the thread. It wasn't

Makes sense. Even if a single thread misses the L2, if that's all you're really running, I imagine it has pretty good odds of hitting in the L3. But in multithreaded, you've got a lot more pressure on the cache, and that spills over into pressure on the fabric memory subsystem, which are also improved.

So about 5% increase in throughput/MHz for Raptor due to the L2. Lots of people remarked on ADL deep dives that there are cache issues. Intel mitigated them a bit.

So now with Raptor and Zen 4, Intel and AMD are all tweaked out as far as frequency and the current architecture. The next architectures are going to be quite telling as to which company has the smarts break some new ground performance-wise.

 

[pakotlar]

I LOVE that second video, but would like to see the 13900k and the 7950x compared. In the bottom end one, AMD won gaming by ~6% but Intel won productivity by ~20% due to more cores. (12 threads compared to 20) But on the top end, the thread count is the same, so it would be interesting. But even at the bottom end the Intel took a lot more power.

29.34% =~30

 

[DrMrLordX]

TechPowerUp shows a pretty clear lead for 13th gen in gaming too and that was on a 3080 (though at 720p).

TPU shows the 7950X losing to the 12900k in their test suite. Most other sites showed the 7950X beating the 12900k during 7950X launch reviews. Something is wrong here. In fact a lot of these sites are turning in poor results for the 7950X in circumstances where the 13900k winds up winning by some ungodly percentage.

Do you not understand GPU limited scenario, I know you do

Do you not understand that you falsely accused a reviewer of using a GeForce 256? Maybe you thought you were being funny, but it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

So if you set the power limit to 250W, you still get like 98% of the performance do you not? So the question I have to ask is why this is not the default for motherboards? Doesn't seem much point blasting heat throughout your system for very small gains.

Depends on the application. Intel wanted to show up strong in as many applications as possible on review day, and the OEMs wanted their boards to look good benched head-to-head, so . . . there you go.

 

[Kocicak]

I put together comparison of 13700K and 13900K at 160W: power draw most even small air coolers can handle.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Sigh... You cannot release something that is not ready. Why don't they just go ahead and release Zen 5 at CES?

Below is an AMD PowerPoint clearly shows Zen 4 5nm being released prior to 2022.

AMD failed to execute. Intel has failed to execute many times. Every time after their failures they wipe the floor with AMD. This should not be acceptable over at AMD. I hope AMD has saved their profits. They are going to need all that capital moving forward for R & D.

I just want to point out that Raptor Lake wasn't even on the Intel timeline. They added Raptor Lake in the last 18 months because their fabs were struggling with their process nodes. It's a stop gap product. Meteor Lake is going to be a problem for AMD because of the (intel 4) 7nm process. The core advantage will be gone for AMD when Meteor Lake arrives. I still think AMD will have an efficiency lead because 3nm is the next step.

Had AMD released the 3D v-cache with the Zen 4 release. They would have basically won the war with Intel for a second straight CPU generation.

 

[TheELF]

Granted Raptor holds up pretty well here but it's a little misleading for the "stock" power levels not to be included on the graph. If you don't know better you would assume AMD stock = Intel stock, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case right?

Ehh, its 230W for the 7950x and 253W for the 13900k, it's not far enough apart to even care.
This is stock as in still inside warranty for the cpus, what every mobo does is a different kind of stock.

AMD Corrects Socket AM5 Power Specifications: 170W TDP and 230W PPT

www.anandtech.com

 

[DrMrLordX]

Every time after their failures they wipe the floor with AMD.

Still waiting for Sapphire Rapids.

what every mobo does is a different kind of stock.

Yeah, the one users are actually stuck with. Yet another generation of Intel products that can't conform to Intel's own power specs.

 

[exquisitechar]

Below is an AMD PowerPoint clearly shows Zen 4 5nm being released prior to 2022.
View attachment 69624

No. According to AMD, that means that anything left of 2022 should be released by the end of 2022, not before. They didn't fail to execute.

Had AMD released the 3D v-cache with the Zen 4 release. They would have basically won the war with Intel for a second straight CPU generation.

N5 stacking flat out isn't ready this year according to TSMC, V-Cache was impossible on launch for this generation.

 

[Hans Gruber]

No. According to AMD, that means that anything left of 2022 should be released by the end of 2022, not before. They didn't fail to execute.

N5 stacking flat out isn't ready this year according to TSMC, V-Cache was impossible on launch for this generation.

Various sources have said AMD wanted 3d v-cache before the end of 2022 when they knew what raptor lake could do. It would have been nice to see on launch.

It would now make sense for AMD to make Zen 4 on AM4 as well. Just think how many Zen 4 CPU's they could sell as drop in upgrades.

Zen 3 was released on Nov 5th 2020. 23 months is a long time. They failed to execute on the timeline originally set out. It hurts sales for Zen 4 to be up against Raptor Lake almost from the start.

 

[Henry swagger]

Core i9-13900K, i7-13700K & i5-13600K: Gaming-Könige im Test: Benchmarks in Games

Intel Raptor Lake im Test: Benchmarks in Games / Leistung in Spielen (720p, RTX 3090 Ti) / CPU-Gaming-Leistung im absoluten CPU-Limit

www.computerbase.de

Computerbase only used a RTX 3090 Ti here but Raptor Lake is dominating pretty well at gaming in their tests.

Generally a 10-20% lead over the 5800X3D and 7950x with bigger leads in RT titles. If you look at 1% lows the differences are even bigger.

When considering this alongside the data from derbauer:

The 13900k is capable of being the top performer in gaming and mixed workloads while matching Zen 4 efficiency or beating it. You can pretty much set the 13900K to 88-90W and keep the top of the chart gaming experience.

Given the cheaper cost of the CPU and the cheaper platform costs, for gaming and mixed workloads it really is making little sense to buy a Zen 4 over RPL. This is especially true for the lower end Zen 4s.

Only the 7950x makes any sense and the only use case for where this applies is for people that run 100% load all the time and especially AVX workloads. Even in this case the 13900k isn't actually too bad but the 7950x is clearly more performant and more efficient here.

Intel Core i9-13900K vs. AMD Ryzen 9 7950X at 125W and 65W | Club386

Prefer to keep temperature and power consumption down to lower levels this winter? Here's what happens when the best CPUs are scaled back.

www.club386.com

View attachment 69594
View attachment 69595


There is a lot of hyperbole about the 13th gen being horrifically inefficient, power hungry, hot and burning down your home but I think the objective data shows it has very reasonable efficiency at more sane power limits while keeping almost all of the performance.

Well said.. ✔️👍

 

[TheELF]

Yeah, the one users are actually stuck with. Yet another generation of Intel products that can't conform to Intel's own power specs.

People that buy high end Z boards expect what from the board?


People that don't want or need overclocks are going for sensible boards and there 80% of boards conform to base power and below.
If you care about power and can't be bothered with settings you have to do research on what board to buy, it's nothing new, this has been the norm since forever.

Even for AMD you have to do research on the boards, especially if you plan on upgrading to a much larger CPU, you have to make sure that the mobo can handle it.

 

[pakotlar]

Prediction for next internet points, now that I won my 13900K 15% faster than 5800X 3D with non-potato ddr5 and no gpu bottlenecks (Mark and others, I expect my points by noon):

Intel counters 7950X 3D with 32 core raptor cove only HEDT Raptor Lake - S at $1,500, 24 core at 1,000 and 13900KS at 700. New mobo for the HEDT parts, makes Threadripper and 7950X 3D look silly.

 

[poke01]

Still waiting for Sapphire Rapids.

We are in the Raptor Lake thread. So of course the topic is on client CPUs. We all Intel in dead in data centre for a couple of years/

 

[Yosar]

Why would you need to test so many games unless you have that many variances in graphic engines to test from?
Its to me honestly wasted time.

You would need to select the most commonly used engines and test performance that way, as each game can change by slight texture or optimizations the developers put into it, which would again scale if the same applied on the same engine.

And there are not 25 different engines.

It's not about engines only. 70% of games are on Unreal engine. And you don't want to sum up 70% of games to one example that is as much important as engine with one game on it.
Moreover implementation of engine can vary in a big way. There are games on Unreal engine where intel fares better, there are games on Unreal engine where AMD fares better.
That's why it is important to have in gaming test as many games as possible.
And that's why tests with 10-12 games can be dismissed, you can easily manipulate them to get picture you want.

And when you see a test of Doom Eternal when there is barely any difference between processors, you can be sure something went wrong with test and you can dismiss it (yes I look at you TPU review of 13600K in 1080p -> I didn't bother farther even, it was useless).
It means reviewer is incompetent, or simply biased. Either way it's a waste of my time, and money if I take their tests seriously.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Any review of 13600K with DDR4 3200/3600 ??

HWUB tests the 13600K, and it includes DDR4 3600 for the gaming tests. In short AMD 7600x leads gaming by a tiny bit compared to the 13600K with DDR5 (He considers it essentially identical performance), but the gap increases when the 13600K uses DDR4.
In productivity workloads the 13600K is in a different class, it's often neck and neck with the 5950X. But he sticks with DDR5 here.

 

[Hulk]

Ehh, its 230W for the 7950x and 253W for the 13900k, it's not far enough apart to even care.
This is stock as in still inside warranty for the cpus, what every mobo does is a different kind of stock.

AMD Corrects Socket AM5 Power Specifications: 170W TDP and 230W PPT

www.anandtech.com

I stand corrected. I didn't know "stock-for-stock" power levels were so close.

I don't think AMD or Intel "failed" in any sense of the word with Zen 4 and Raptor. In fact, both are brilliant and considering the world wide pandemic were released in a pretty timely fashion. It's also how they each followed completely different paths but ended up at roughly the same destination from a performance point of view. Ain't competition a beautiful thing?

I've been following this market since the early 1990's and except for a quick blip with the Athlon this is the first time Intel has had their feet held to the fire for an extended period of time. Not only are we seeing great products but you KNOW they are both scrambling to make sure their next combatant is prepared to fight in the CPU wars. Many of you probably don't remember the steady flow of $999 dollar top of the stack Intel products. It sucked. Now if Intel could just get those ARC drivers together...

 

[nicalandia]

Intel counters 7950X 3D with 32 core raptor cove only HEDT Raptor Lake - S Threadripper and 7950X 3D look silly.

Do you really believe Intel has anything to make a Threadripper with 96C/192C look silly? REALLY?

You are aware that they haven't even released a Sapphire Based HEDT right?

 

[Kaluan]

Ehh, its 230W for the 7950x and 253W for the 13900k, it's not far enough apart to even care.
This is stock as in still inside warranty for the cpus, what every mobo does is a different kind of stock.

AMD Corrects Socket AM5 Power Specifications: 170W TDP and 230W PPT

www.anandtech.com

Except it's not really 253W is it?
Particularly in the reviews that tested on Z790s, the socket load power is more like ~300W. As many outlets have mentioned, the default is basically unlocked usually. Intel managed to destroy both their own meaning of Tau boosting and PL2 values within 1 year. After a long history of both Intel and it's partners already playing a very loose defintions game of what stock is, with stuff like MCE and infinite boost periods.

Unless someone wants to tell me both 13700K/F and 13900K/F consume exactly the same amount of power at "stock" load cause of 253W PL2 with a straight face lol

 

[Kocicak]

I created a video showing that you can cool the 13900K at 300W easily with a small 240 AIO cooler, even after 10 minutes the temps were mostly below 90°C.

BTW I do not like idea of this power draw at all, my CPU is at the moment limited to 160W, I am getting ready to put my modest hyper 212 type air cooler back on.

 

[DrMrLordX]

People that buy high end Z boards expect what from the board?

I don't think anyone seriously expected 350W unlimited mode to be ubiquitous, except for skeptics.

We are in the Raptor Lake thread. So of course the topic is on client CPUs.

Then nobody's "wiping the floor with AMD" now are they? Not that Raptor Lake is doing that either . . .

 

[Doug S]

Sigh... You cannot release something that is not ready. Why don't they just go ahead and release Zen 5 at CES?

Yep no one wants to see AMD & Intel compete against each other with paper launches, announcing stuff that trickles out in tiny volumes with little QA that no one can buy. AMD announces Zen 5 at CES, Intel announces Arrow Lake at IDF, a few months later maybe we see a handful of risk production chips sent to a couple benchmarking sites and no one wins.

 

[nicalandia]

Has anyone with a 13900K being able to disable the e cores and see if the AVX-512 Was somehow not laser off by Intel? Or that ship has sailed way long long ago?

 

[Harry_Wild]

Some CPU comparison YouTuber should do a CPU low wattage comparisons on performance. I find zero right now, Only PC World seems interested on this subject. Waiting for their 13900K and 13600K low wattage video(s).

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I stand corrected. I didn't know "stock-for-stock" power levels were so close.

I don't think AMD or Intel "failed" in any sense of the word with Zen 4 and Raptor. In fact, both are brilliant and considering the world wide pandemic were released in a pretty timely fashion. It's also how they each followed completely different paths but ended up at roughly the same destination from a performance point of view. Ain't competition a beautiful thing?

I've been following this market since the early 1990's and except for a quick blip with the Athlon this is the first time Intel has had their feet held to the fire for an extended period of time. Not only are we seeing great products but you KNOW they are both scrambling to make sure their next combatant is prepared to fight in the CPU wars. Many of you probably don't remember the steady flow of $999 dollar top of the stack Intel products. It sucked. Now if Intel could just get those ARC drivers together...

Quoted for emphasis. This is the thinking of any reasonable DIY hobbyist. We are in a golden age of PC hardware right now. AMD became competitive again, forcing Intel to stop sitting on their hands. Seems like Intel is already eating it on margins to win back lost market share. Having fired the latest shots in a price war, in which we the consumer will be the winners. Good times!

 

[biostud]

To a gamer, overclocking, and pushing that envelope is more important then how efficient the cpu is.

To me as a gamer, it made sense when overclocking gave +15% more fps, but now overclocking is not something I would ever consider for my gaming rig, as the benefits are minimal and the electricity prices are so high here in Europe.
Also all modern CPUs are in 99% not going to be limiting games, compared to the video card.