Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.
 
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Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
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Simply not true, except for some unreleased chips on the lower end. You get more e cores, increased cache and probably a better memory controller with RL. Actually, the improvement from AL to RL was somewhat better than I expected.
I think it's still fair to call it "mostly" just an overclocked Alder Lake. The frequency and extra cores are doing most of the work.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
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I think it's still fair to call it "mostly" just an overclocked Alder Lake. The frequency and extra cores are doing most of the work.
Wow, Intel cant win. They were criticized for years for not offering enough cores, but now that they finally do, it is just dismissed as "the extra cores and frequency are doing most of the work." Well that is the point of extra cores, is it not? On a more serious note, the usefulness of upgrading is probably dependent on use case. The extra cores give a nice boost for productivity work, but not so much for gaming, although the added cache and clockspeed do give an increase in gaming performance as well.
 

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
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Wow, Intel cant win. They were criticized for years for not offering enough cores, but now that they finally do, it is just dismissed as "the extra cores and frequency are doing most of the work." Well that is the point of extra cores, is it not? On a more serious note, the usefulness of upgrading is probably dependent on use case. The extra cores give a nice boost for productivity work, but not so much for gaming, although the added cache and clockspeed do give an increase in gaming performance as well.
I'm not saying that's makes Raptor Lake a bad product. It just is what it is.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,290
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www.teamjuchems.com
I'm not saying that's makes Raptor Lake a bad product. It just is what it is.

FWIW, I would consider a 13900P or something that completely dropped the e-cores and either used that space for (ideally) more cache or just eschewed them completely at a lower price.

I sold a 5900X to install the 5800X3D concluding that either of the offers plenty of productivity performance but what I really wanted was better gaming performance, and specifically increasing those 1% low FPS numbers. The FPS highs were already high enough.
 

LightningZ71

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2017
1,791
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Linux Performance Benchmarks for 13900K


The 13900K just don't play nice on Linux
View attachment 69890


Geometric Mean

View attachment 69891

Sifting through the article, it looks like a few things bubble to the surface:

AMD's decision to implement AVX-512 in Zen4 is paying dividends where it is supported. In heavy AVX-512 benchmarks, ZEN4 gains a lot of performance over Raptor Lake. This isn't a case where Intel could have changed the outcome, no matter of their approach. If they left AVX-512 enabled, but restricted threads to the P cores, they would be down many cores to the higher end Zen4 parts and would look bad against even the 7700x (and actually loose to it a couple of times in heavy MT benches while using alternate code paths). If they added AVX-512 to the E cores to help those benches, it would balloon those cores and the math on die space wouldn't work. If they decided to just go with 12 P-cores, it might have come out ahead in a couple of tests where AVX-512 is relevant, assuming that there are specific conditions in place, but, they would still be down by 4 cores vs. the 7950x and take a lot of losses.

There are multiple benches where the 7900 and 7950x loose significant performance against the 7700x and 7600x. There's a penalty that's still present in some benches for having multiple CCDs. It's not drastic overall, but it is notable. There are some tests where the 7700x and 7600x beat the 13900K and the 7950x and 7900x loose to it. That could likely be addresses through affinity adjustments, thought that's just speculation.

Overall power usage, while achieving higher performance, across a WIDE variety of tests, favors ZEN4, HOWEVER, this is not a huge difference as the 7950x is chewing through a lot of power itself to get the wins that it gets, just not usually as much as Raptor Lake.

Linux, especially the most recent kernels, seems to do a solid job of managing the E cores. In some cases, it seems to do better managing the E cores than it does handling the multiple CCDs of the two CCD Zen4 parts.

I speculate that, if AMD does release dual CCD X3D parts, and even with the single CCD parts, Raptor lake will suffer heavily in many of these benchmarks. I make this statement because I note that the 5800X3d is often nipping at the heels of the 13900K and even beats it on a few benchmarks. This is while the 5800X3d is suffering a massive penalty in single and all core boost on top of having a smaller L2, no AVX-512 support, and not having the other Zen4 core improvements. The Geomean for the 5800X3d is barely over the 5800X largely due to the clock deficit. From the information that we have, it looks like Zen4 will do much better in that regard.

All of this is to point out that the often speculated 13900KS release will likely need a significant clock speed bump to keep from being significantly outpaced, at least in the Phoronix Linux test suite.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
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Both make sense. Comparing two CPUs that offer 16 threads for 65W makes sense as a comparison. So does comparing what level of performance you can get for $300 (or any amount), or what kind of performance you get if both cap clock rates at the same frequency, or what kind of performance you can get pushing both chips as far as they're capable of going, etc.

One type of comparison doesn't invalidate others.

Equal pricing is the one that matters to consumers though. Equalized threads is more of an abstract comparison of questionable utility.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
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@ondma

Yes, slightly better and a bit more e-cores and a bit more cache. Not that significant. I'm hearing conflicting things about the memory controller, so I'm not sure about that yet.

At least in games, the main benefit comes from the increased clocks, but at a very high energy cost.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
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I guess that only applies to CPUs then, because on the GPU side if you compare AMD/nVidia based on price AMD wins just about everywhere. Yet people still buy nVidia.


CPU there really is only compute performance.

GPUs do a lot more than straight just compute performance, NVidia markets lots of extra features like DLSS, RTX, etc. We still compare equal price points, even if more people keep choosing NVidia, it's still the proper comparison.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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At least in games, the main benefit comes from the increased clocks, but at a very high energy cost.
You can go all the way down to 88W with the 13900k, lower the resolution to 720p, and you still only lose like 10% maximum in games and it still stays ahead of amd.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I created a video showing that you can cool the 13900K at 300W easily with a small 240 AIO cooler, even after 10 minutes the temps were mostly below 90°C.


BTW I do not like idea of this power draw at all, my CPU is at the moment limited to 160W, I am getting ready to put my modest hyper 212 type air cooler back on.

I have settled on 175W with the Noctua cooler in my sig. Temps stay in check and performance is still good. It I come across an app that needs single or double core power it'll still of course boost to a mighty 5.8GHz.
 

Kaluan

Senior member
Jan 4, 2022
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You can go all the way down to 88W with the 13900k, lower the resolution to 720p, and you still only lose like 10% maximum in games and it still stays ahead of amd.
According to ComputerBase's test suite and parameters of course.

You're also implying you can't limit the TDP/PPT of Ryzen 7000 CPUs, or that it somehow tanks gaming performance, which AFAIK from what I've see, isn't true.

To anyone else who seriously thinks 13900K/KF is seriously 18% faster than 7950X is gaming overall... please, just stop.

So at most, you'd keep CB's misleading conclusions the same, but at lower power envelopes for both systems. The idea being that undervolted vs stock ain't the valid big win you think it is.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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According to ComputerBase's test suite and parameters of course.

You're also implying you can't limit the TDP/PPT of Ryzen 7000 CPUs, or that it somehow tanks gaming performance, which AFAIK from what I've see, isn't true.

To anyone else who seriously thinks 13900K/KF is seriously 18% faster than 7950X is gaming overall... please, just stop.

So at most, you'd keep CB's misleading conclusions the same, but at lower power envelopes for both systems. The idea being that undervolted vs stock ain't the valid big win you think it is.

Computerbase uses only officially supported memory for both Intel and AMD which puts Zen4 at a significant disadvantage in some workloads, especially gaming. I have no problem with them doing this, but everyone should keep this in mind when looking at their results as they will not represent what pretty much any DIY, boutique, or OEM gaming machine will get.
 

Accord99

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2001
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At least in games, the main benefit comes from the increased clocks, but at a very high energy cost.
Raptor Lake uses less power than Alder Lake in games for better performance. The 13700K vs the 12900KS performance/watt improvement is so high you might think it was actually using a new 7 nm process instead of 10 nm.



 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,331
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Computerbase uses only officially supported memory for both Intel and AMD which puts Zen4 at a significant disadvantage in some workloads, especially gaming. I have no problem with them doing this, but everyone should keep this in mind when looking at their results as they will not represent what pretty much any DIY, boutique, or OEM gaming machine will get.
Also if you are considering a 13600K for a Budget CPU and save the rest on GPU(Smart move), don't skimp on RAM. As Raptor Lake on DDR4 is slower than the 5800X3D
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,020
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The 13900K just don't play nice on Linux

It's still faster than Alder Lake, which isn't a total loss. But my interpretation is that you aren't seeing much utilization of the extra e-cores in the PTS.

Wow, Intel cant win. They were criticized for years for not offering enough cores, but now that they finally do, it is just dismissed as "the extra cores and frequency are doing most of the work."

That's not the only criticism of their designs. I think, by this point, most desktop users were interested in a newer core and process rather than a refresh. At least the pricing seems to be pretty aggressive.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Before Raptor Lake launched some users were berated for suggesting Raptor Lake would use more than 250W during reviews.

Do you consider these users should also feel vindicated?
No, they were berated for suggesting that there would be special "350 W" "Extreme" power modes on select motherboards aimed at winning benchmarks. What actually happened is that there is no such mode, only Intel's lax attitude on making motherboard vendors follow recommendations ultimately ended up causing the CPUs to run in unlimited power mode.

The end result might have been the same, but running around with the claim that Raptor Lake would need >250 W to even have a reasonable chance of coming close to the 7950X, let alone beat it, was pure hyperbole.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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What actually happened is that there is no such mode, only Intel's lax attitude on making motherboard vendors follow recommendations ultimately ended up causing the CPUs to run in unlimited power mode.
LOL, so there was no "extreme" mode because there was no power limit. Ok.

Anyway, I've seen enough instances where people needlessly confronted you for common sense claims (the i3 12100 utility for budget gaming comes to mind), so I guess it shouldn't surprise you that any claim which doesn't fit "expectations" will be met with rebuke. However, it would only be fair to remember that the main reason people were skeptic about Raptor Lake MT performance uplift was power usage. The increase in core count and max clocks showed high potential, but scaling within 250W was a subject for... hot debate.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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No, they were berated for suggesting that there would be special "350 W" "Extreme" power modes on select motherboards aimed at winning benchmarks. What actually happened is that there is no such mode, only Intel's lax attitude on making motherboard vendors follow recommendations ultimately ended up causing the CPUs to run in unlimited power mode.

The end result might have been the same, but running around with the claim that Raptor Lake would need >250 W to even have a reasonable chance of coming close to the 7950X, let alone beat it, was pure hyperbole.
Thats BS. The only way Raptor lake wins against the 7950x is at more than 250 watts. 337 is common on these wins. On some its over 400 watts ! Regardless, most I have seen, it that Raptor lake takes over 100 watts more for any given power usage. (games aside) Gaming it takes more, but the win is not 10%, usually 2-5%. I power was taken into consideration, your chart would look much different.

You seem to be the king of cherry picking anything that meets your agenda.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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Thats BS. The only way Raptor lake wins against the 7950x is at more than 250 watts. 337 is common on these wins. On some its over 400 watts ! Regardless, most I have seen, it that Raptor lake takes over 100 watts more for any given power usage. (games aside) Gaming it takes more, but the win is not 10%, usually 2-5%. I power was taken into consideration, your chart would look much different.

You seem to be the king of cherry picking anything that meets your agenda.
AMD and Intel have to find ways of delivering pref without increasing power.

This is getting silly. This turbo boost and unlimited power from Intel needs to be stopped. It's not good, this is not innovation but stupidity from Intel. IMO, no CPU should use more than 150 watts.

True efficiency is a lost art in the x86 world these days. Intels E cores are only for area efficiency. Raptor lake is not efficient. The only reason it seems more efficient is because of the extra e-cores vs Alderlake.

MTL won't change anything either ie won't beat ARM(Qualcomm and Apple) in efficiency. Arrow lake is great but it's up to Intel to make it a reality.

AMD is doing good and Zen 4 with TSMC 4nm will be great for laptops but let's be honest Intel owns the majority of the laptop market. So Intel having a proper efficient core is important to the industry.

If Royal Lake is Intel going wide and slow but having excellent IPC like M1 or could it be something unique but no I don't believe that Alder Lake is Intel's Zen moment.
That will be Royal core is it's real and it bears fruit.

Over all I remain optimistic about Intel and AMD's future. They both have great CEOs and excellent engineers.
Sorry if I got off topic.
 
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poke01

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That's an arbitrary limit that might suit some users but not others. If the market demands greater efficiency, then let their buying habits reflect that.
It does very much. So much so that Qualcomm switched to TSMC. The OEMs demanded that. I truly believe efficiency and performance needs to be balanced.

Hey, this is an enthusiast forum but we to draw a line. Intel using 350 w is not not good. Next year might be 450 watts. Then where is the limit?
 
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