Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[A///]

If intel can get their power use under control for meteor lake or arrow lake then they stand a very good chance of very highly likely out gunning Zen 5. Power use is the femme fatale for Intel right now. It's an issue for those who care about power use or the heat associated with it. Raptorlake encompasses the lessons they learned over the years and as prices for implementations have gone down it made sense to begin incorporating one trick wonders into newer product stacks. The better cache layout on raptor is likely insprired from the lessons learned about the 5775c. I don't know about the e core spam. Their engagement is strange and the lack of ht is a con for me. If Intel can solve these minor issues going forward their approach makes sense unless amd can manufacturing higher core dies at a cost effective rate.I did see the video for the bom of an amd 16 core but it ignored r&D costs and general overhead. I'm looking forward to what Intel can address and push out over the next two generations. Whatever comes out then would have begun development around the time of swan.

 

[A///]

mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.

 

[nicalandia]

mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.

That's because with DDR4 Raptor Lake Falls behind Zen4 and 5800X3D

 

[DrMrLordX]

Still has nothing to do with a specific Intel CPU vs specific AMD CPU.

What a laugh.

Yes sure, that's why every overclocking guide before that starts with the words, this is the hacked bios you need to flash to be able to overclock because power is limited to stock TDP....

Sorry but that's a fiction. 8600k owners weren't limited by firmware.

You're right in the end but are consumers given enough options?

Technically yes, since at least AMD provides not one but two ECO modes you can toggle on with a software switch (assuming AMD has sorted out the issues with Ryzen Master not properly supporting Raphael's ECO modes on all boards yet). Not sure how hard/easy it is to use software tools to constrain power use on Raptor Lake. Alternatively you can just limit power draw by speccing a smaller cooler, though as @Kocicak has encountered with certain workloads, that doesn't always seem to work out very well.

On the Intel side, consumers are kind of stuck since they can't even get updated hardware (Raptor Cove, Gracemont Plus) except from a few "enthusiast" SKUs. Hopefully there will be OEM-oriented versions of Raptor Lake available eventually? The entire mobile fleet is still Alder Lake, and everything from the 13600 on down are also Alder Lake, so if you wanted the updated hardware with (mostly) improved efficiency, you're out of luck unless you're getting DiY-oriented gear.

(and if we're being honest, AMD hasn't released many Raphael SKUs yet either, though that will change dramatically in January when they launch some mobile product you won't be able to buy until maybe June at the earliest)

 

[A///]

That's because with DDR4 Raptor Lake Falls behind Zen4 and 5800X3D

ive had a severa drinks an am half in the bag to th zapoid but that was my point with the budget comments a while back. ddr5 prices need to bottom out big time oh otherwise raptor lake sales will be a corky storky dud like alderlake was because it came after the high tide of sales periods. it's rough riding from here on out until the recession and associated inflation runs out by 2024. I'm paying 40-50 pc higher costs at grocery and clothing stores than I was last year. at this rate i may go vegan to save money.

 

[IntelUser2000]

I don't believe Alder Lake was a innovation or a breakthrough. It was not focused on efficiency that mattered in a laptop or a datacentre.

If Alderlake was just 30% faster than Rocketlake, no one would have cared this much.

But because it was twice as fast and practically at same power levels, while coming in the same year as Rocketlake, suddenly they are performance competitive when it looked very far away from doing so just 6 months prior to it.

You do need increased efficiency to do this. They could have capped it at say, 160W but they did not.

There's a difference in laptops. In laptops it's less about power efficiency at it's about battery efficiency. Because in laptops battery life is dominated by idle power use plus it's ability to get to lower power states quickly.

 

[Heartbreaker]

What a laugh.

Reality makes some people laugh.

 

[Asterox]

mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.

That is AMD-s plan, and by logic it is only problem from Intel point of view.AMD sells Zen 3 processors, unless something has changed in the meantime.

AM5 has been active for a little over a month, or he didn't even get his shoes dirty yet.

Raptor Lake lounch, or that business week Mindfactory sold 1020 red ones.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584311412360646657

This week sales, but the business week is not over yet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585578831540326401

 

[Carfax83]

No real idea why Rocket lake is where it is, save for code favorable to the Intel cove core design and Intel's cache strategy.

Yeah Rocket Lake being where it is is weird indeed. And the 7600x being slightly quicker than the 10900K is also very odd.

As far as I know, that game only hammers the CPU in certain segments of the game like the populated areas and whenever the rats are on screen. Supposedly there can be up to 300,000 rats on screen.

 

[poke01]

My problem is lower

If Alderlake was just 30% faster than Rocketlake, no one would have cared this much.

But because it was twice as fast and practically at same power levels, while coming in the same year as Rocketlake, suddenly they are performance competitive when it looked very far away from doing so just 6 months prior to it.

You do need increased efficiency to do this. They could have capped it at say, 160W but they did not.

There's a difference in laptops. In laptops it's less about power efficiency at it's about battery efficiency. Because in laptops battery life is dominated by idle power use plus it's ability to get to lower power states quickly.

In laptops Intel boosts past their rated TDP. Say the P series it's TDP is 28 watts but it goes up to 64 watts. This is not efficiency. Intel low power states are horrible and crap on laptops.

Turbo boost is Intel's own enemy. Disable it and you don't get the pref you paid for.

If Intel truly creates a CPU that operates at the rated TDP to get the full performance like they used to a very long time ago Intel would be king in laptops.

 

[TheELF]

Sorry but that's a fiction. 8600k owners weren't limited by firmware.

Nobody was ever limited by firmware with a K CPU and a Z board, that's the whole reason of this conversation.
PL2 isn't a firmware limit, it's a warranty limit.

 

[IntelUser2000]

In laptops Intel boosts past their rated TDP. Say the P series it's TDP is 28 watts but it goes up to 64 watts. This is not efficiency. Intel low power states are horrible and crap on laptops.

TDP = power used in laptops, thus it has to be conformed to it unlike in desktops where they can do whatever they want with heatsinks sized and weighing like a brick.

Sure lots of laptops go beyond that but that's their choice to oversize the cooling capability. But if the laptop is meant for X TDP, then it *has* to ramp back down to X TDP regardless or it'll overheat and damage the components and/or chassis.

 

[A///]

This week sales, but the business week is not over yet.

Because it makes sense to buy am4 over am5 and 13th gen. DDr5 is expensive no matter what. You can use a ddr4 board but you are leaving performance on the table. It's why i said that rpl may suffer from the same faith that alder had. Poor sales even if it is the better product by a mile.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Nobody was ever limited by firmware with a K CPU and a Z board, that's the whole reason of this conversation.

Yet you just claimed that overclocking guides encouraged people to update their BIOS/UEFI to remove power limits . . . ?

PL2 isn't a firmware limit, it's a warranty limit.

One that Intel's own CPUs and platforms refuses to enforce. I'm sure Intel users would be thrilled to hear that their brand new Raptor Lake is out of warranty the instant they boot it without modifying anything in the UEFI or using XTU.

 

[jpiniero]

PL2 isn't a firmware limit, it's a warranty limit.

No. Only the multiplier limit.

 

[Pneumothorax]

I was merely passing along the bit of info that I stumbled upon. Ah, dug a bit more and found your exact issue, it appears you need to update the Intel ME firmware & driver.

Here's a thread on the issue - https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...103-from-with-13900k-no-nvme-drivers-detected
Here's the resource page you need for firmware/driver - https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?131027-RaptorLake-Resources

Take it slow, read the threads. Good luck!

You da man! Works great now. Didn't know there was another bios within the motherboard with this Intel ME crap. Now I need to return the Z790 and DDR5 combo I just bought from Newegg.

 

[Mopetar]

Equal pricing is the one that matters to consumers though. Equalized threads is more of an abstract comparison of questionable utility.

In a general sense you're correct, but if you have some software that doesn't scale beyond 16 threads or your license fees are based on core count (more typical in the server space than the consumer market) then suddenly those other comparisons become a lot more important.

Even if the comparison is academic for most people here, the comparison itself should still make some kind of logical sense.

 

[ondma]

Because it makes sense to buy am4 over am5 and 13th gen. DDr5 is expensive no matter what. You can use a ddr4 board but you are leaving performance on the table. It's why i said that rpl may suffer from the same faith that alder had. Poor sales even if it is the better product by a mile.

Yea, but with either AL or RL with DDR4 you are still getting better performance that am4, especially in gaming.

 

[A///]

Yea, but with either AL or RL with DDR4 you are still getting better performance that am4, especially in gaming.

This only makes sense if you're not already on am4. To buy into al/rl now is a cost too great. If amd cadence picks up to how it used to be we might see z5 in before q3 24. The latest intel news is making me thing they'll do a late q3 launch of their next product. Am5 is fine if you've got money to burn and need that power. Dare i be contrarian and say it hinges on z5 being good and blowing past intel's next chip, otherwise they may be slower or the same. Processor and board prices must come down. z890 will be about 85% expensive as am5 given the complexities on a 2 year life cycle vs 3-4.

 

[nicalandia]

Intel i5 13500 make its debut on Geekbench5

ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an ASUS System Product Name with an Intel Core i5-13500 processor.

browser.geekbench.com

13500 vs 13600

ASUS System Product Name vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

 

[A///]

That is AMD-s plan, and by logic it is only problem from Intel point of view.AMD sells Zen 3 processors, unless something has changed in the meantime.

AM5 has been active for a little over a month, or he didn't even get his shoes dirty yet.

Raptor Lake lounch, or that business week Mindfactory sold 1020 red ones.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584311412360646657

This week sales, but the business week is not over yet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585578831540326401

Yes that was what I was saying. Do you write for notebookcheck? I read their site religiously and saw an article about this in the early am. If this keeps up through the next 8 weeks of the holiday period then I don't see either zen 4 or raptor lake making great sales strides. The 13900K is will be getting a ks model but it is to be seen what zen 4 will get. Only the one model or all models getting a x3d version taking over the current msrps while the current parts drop down in msrp. Can amd afford such a move and if they can will it spell sales doom for intel. x3d won't help in all games and doesn't do much in non game work loads but it would make it more tantalizing to go with amd especially if the partner board prices drop. my 2c

AMD has a big fight against it when it comes to arrow lake and even @Geddagod would agree with me on that. Arrow gets lion cove big cores with crestmont small cores. Lunar uses the same core designs with added cores.Arrow allegedly uses TSMC3 with an 8+32 structure and will share node parity with AMD at the same foundry.

Arrow will come at a time when the recession is winding down and inflation will be back to normal. Prime period for consumer driven purchasing of new computers and hardware. Zen 5 may come 1-2 quarters earlier but will suffer from the tail end of the recession, but will have a lead over Intel. Great times to be a consumer.

 

[IntelUser2000]

@A/// Arrowlake is rumored to be TSMC N3 and Intel 20A. Also it has a Lion Cove + Skymont core config. Crestmont is in Meteorlake.

Lunar Lake is said to be a low power-only product.

 

[A///]

@A/// Arrowlake is rumored to be TSMC N3 and Intel 20A. Also it has a Lion Cove + Skymont core config. Crestmont is in Meteorlake.

Lunar Lake is said to be a low power-only product.

Woops you're right. I misread my notes. Arrowlake desktop is @ tsmc. That's more important when discussing zen 5. Wasn't meteor a lower volume or lower power product too? There's a 1+ year gap between arrow and nova. Pcie6 will be available by then and ddr6 rolls around in 2029.

 

[Thunder 57]

Yes that was what I was saying. Do you write for notebookcheck? I read their site religiously and saw an article about this in the early am. If this keeps up through the next 8 weeks of the holiday period then I don't see either zen 4 or raptor lake making great sales strides. The 13900K is will be getting a ks model but it is to be seen what zen 4 will get. Only the one model or all models getting a x3d version taking over the current msrps while the current parts drop down in msrp. Can amd afford such a move and if they can will it spell sales doom for intel. x3d won't help in all games and doesn't do much in non game work loads but it would make it more tantalizing to go with amd especially if the partner board prices drop. my 2c

AMD has a big fight against it when it comes to arrow lake and even @Geddagod would agree with me on that. Arrow gets lion cove big cores with crestmont small cores. Lunar uses the same core designs with added cores.Arrow allegedly uses TSMC3 with an 8+32 structure and will share node parity with AMD at the same foundry.

Arrow will come at a time when the recession is winding down and inflation will be back to normal. Prime period for consumer driven purchasing of new computers and hardware. Zen 5 may come 1-2 quarters earlier but will suffer from the tail end of the recession, but will have a lead over Intel. Great times to be a consumer.

If you already know when the recession and inflation are going to back to normal, than why can't you tell us about Arrow lake performance as well?

 

[A///]

If you already know when the recession and inflation are going to back to normal, than why can't you tell us about Arrow lake performance as well?

You should read economic outlooks and realize we'd entered a recession before countries announced it. They don't last more than a few years. Unless you've been asleep the last few years we've been in economical free fall since march '20.