Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Hulk]

 

[Hulk]

 

[coercitiv]

@Hulk is this using the default AC/DC Loadline setting on the mobo, or have you used the minimum setting in the UEFI to get "baseline" readings for the CPU VID?

Either of them is great, but it helps to know if this is the stock for your board or more of an attempt to get the baseline values.

 

[Hulk]

@Hulk is this using the default AC/DC Loadline setting on the mobo, or have you used the minimum setting in the UEFI to get "baseline" readings for the CPU VID?

Either of them is great, but it helps to know if this is the stock for your board or more of an attempt to get the baseline values.

This data is taken from HWinfo during a CB R23 MT run with only the P cores enabled in the BIOS. This is the average reading during the run.

So no, this is not the CPU VID. Getting the VID from the BIOS as programmed into the CPU requires a reboot for every VID check AFAIK unless there is an easier method.

I used Windows Power Plan "max CPU setting" (enabled setting to appear through registry edit) to set the CPU frequency for each run. BTW, that feature only works with E cores disabled at least on my mobo.

 

[Hulk]

Deleted post. Errors in data.

 

[nicalandia]

First CPUZ Shot of The 13400 Raptor Lake CPU with Alder Lake Cache

 

[Hulk]

Here is some data on my 13900K. I have some ideas but I'm not sure about the following?
1. Why is the CoreVID from the BIOS lower for 8P as compared to 2P? I'm thinking as the core count increases core which require more voltage is the cause.
2. Why is the actual Core voltage as reported by HWinfo lower than the BIOS data? Here I'm thinking the BIOS voltage is the target and the result is some sort of Vdroop?

 

[nicalandia]

View attachment 70169

Thanks for sharing..!

 

[StinkyPinky]

First CPUZ Shot of The 13400 Raptor Lake CPU with Alder Lake Cache

View attachment 70167

I can see this been a great gaming CPU also.

 

[nicalandia]

I can see this been a great gaming CPU also.

Just as good as the 12400, both share the same Golden Cove Cache Subsystems and the 12400 will certainly have a better Price/Performance ratio.

 

[dttprofessor]

First CPUZ Shot of The 13400 Raptor Lake CPU with Alder Lake Cache

View attachment 70167
[/引用]
4.6克 0.95V 上帝！

 

[lobz]

People buy and do all sorts of stupid and dangerous things.

Companies should be more responsible and not sell the product at a ridiculous and dangerous setting just to be able to top the charts.

View attachment 69942

I quickly cut the irrelevant low power part of the table off. Even at 250W it performs as high as 7950X. I will run my CPU capped at 180W, that is what my air cooler can handle. I am now playing with 13600K and 13700K, not sure which one I will keep.

Straight up lie 😉

 

[Markfw]

Straight up lie 😉

To the post you were quoting... At 142 watt, I can beat almost any benchmark you do at 180 watt.

 

[Thunder 57]

Straight up lie 😉

Yup, the guy who buys things with the intention of returning one. You did the same crap when Zen 2 came out. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Thunder 57]

Yup, the guy who buys things with the intention of returning one. You did the same crap when Zen 2 came out. This is why we can't have nice things.

People buy and do all sorts of stupid and dangerous things.

Companies should be more responsible and not sell the product at a ridiculous and dangerous setting just to be able to top the charts.

View attachment 69942

I quickly cut the irrelevant low power part of the table off. Even at 250W it performs as high as 7950X. I will run my CPU capped at 180W, that is what my air cooler can handle. I am now playing with 13600K and 13700K, not sure which one I will keep.

I meant to quote that.

 

[Hulk]

Now that we've had over a year to test and discuss Intel's hybrid approach with both Alder and Raptor Lake I think we can come to some reasonable conclusions as to why they went down this path. Here's my version of this "story."

First, we have to assume they had a pretty good idea of their performance targets Zen 2, 3, 4.. at the time these parts were on the drawing board and they also had a pretty good idea of the transistor density they could achieve. It would have been obvious to them that they were not going to be able to compete on a core-for-core basis given the node deficit without creating huge parts and impacting the financial bottom like significantly.

With a die the size of the current 8+16 Raptor Lake die they could fit about 13.1 P cores, which would score about 35,000 in Cinebench R23, MT. Good but not enough to beat Zen 4. Furthermore using all E cores they could achieve a score of over 47,000, which would win the MT Cinebench war but of course lose in so many applications requiring ST performance.

This is where I think the Intel designers got it right. They figured that most applications currently that are not highly parallel don't use more than 8 or so cores at once so they went with the hybrid approach to mitigate their node deficiency. Whether or not you like it, given their fabrication limitations it is a good solution and has kept them competitive with AMD, who have equally good big core architecture and better process.

There is no doubt that in order to be competitive they not only had to employ the hybrid approach but also do the best they could from an efficiency point of view because AMD (TSMC) had them there as well. The final piece of the puzzle is because Intel has their own fabs and a significant war chest they could also confront AMD on price. When you put all of this together you see how we've come to the point where we have to very good brand choices at a variety of price points.

The data in the attachment were recorded with max power PL1 and PL2 set at 175W, which I think is reasonable, especially on air cooling. You can see that the E's do quite a bit for efficiency in terms of both area for the compute they generate as well as compute for the power they consume.

 

[nicalandia]

Now that we've had over a year to test and discuss Intel's hybrid approach with both Alder and Raptor Lake I think we can come to some reasonable conclusions as to why they went down this path. Here's my version of this "story."

I agree.

 

[dullard]

With a die the size of the current 8+16 Raptor Lake die they could fit about 13.1 P cores, which would score about 35,000 in Cinebench R23, MT. Good but not enough to beat Zen 4. Furthermore using all E cores they could achieve a score of over 47,000, which would win the MT Cinebench war but of course lose in so many applications requiring ST performance.

I agree, especially with the quoted part. I might have posted this before, but I too keep Excel calculations with various scenarios going. See the image below. This particular one is just a simple take from Chips And Cheese's analysis of efficiency (https://i0.wp.com/chipsandcheese.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/image-151.png?ssl=1). I took a major assumption that isn't quite correct, that 4 E cores and 1 P core were the same area. But, it is pretty close to accurate.


In all power cases, given roughly equal area, you want as many E cores as possible. I hear a ton of people wanting an all P-core CPU and you can see that it would absolutely suck on Intel's node for anything multithreaded. This is pretty much the same as your conclusion if you look at your 164W data, the ones with the most E cores win in every single grouping.

But, there is a big tradeoff that you mention: an all E core CPU sucks at single threaded performance. Which, despite the lack of attention it gets in reviews, ST is what most people use in their day-to-day tasks. So, a hybrid approach given Intel's limitations is the best move that they have. Once we get to 32+ E cores it will be all very clear. Much more clear than the 8+4 ugly stepchild that we have in some Intel chips now.

 

[Grimnir]

Do you guys know any results for DDR4 OC on the Z790 platform? I'm trying to gauge what to expect from 4 sticks of B-die.

 

[nicalandia]

Do you guys know any results for DDR4 OC on the Z790 platform? I'm trying to gauge what to expect from 4 sticks of B-die.

Not worth the Upgrade to Raptor Lake if you are using DDR4, If I had to chose from Tuned Alder Lake with DDR5 vs Raptor Lake with DDR4... Alder Lakes hands down all the time. Invest in DDR5 and GPU.

 

[Grimnir]

Not worth the Upgrade to Raptor Lake if you are using DDR4, If I had to chose from Tuned Alder Lake with DDR5 vs Raptor Lake with DDR4... Alder Lakes hands down all the time. Invest in DDR5 and GPU.

The performance difference between DDR4 and DDR5 isn't that big. Considering I'll be upgrading from Coffee Lake, I reckon it'll be well worth it.

Either way, I would like to see some results overclocking DDR4 on Z390.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Either way, I would like to see some results overclocking DDR4 on Z390.

[OFFICIAL] MSI Z790 Owners Thread

www.overclock.net

#188 · 12 h ago
Picked up Pro z790-A WIFI (for the SPDIF on rear I/O). DDR4 is as expected for an 13700kf that apparently did not win the silicon lottery (won't go over 4000 gear1 at reasonable vccSA.) A couple days tuning and I think I'm at my daily setting for the RAM at 2x16 1.58v 4000 gear1 15-15-15-30-270-2T and getting 66.2 GB/s read and 45.5ns in AIDA.

Not really surprising, but no real reason to go z790 for DDR4.

I chose the z790 since z690 with BIOS flashback weren't really any cheaper, and why not go z790?

Still stuck at 4000 MT/s. Intel doesn't care about DDR4.

 

[igor_kavinski]

ASUS Maximus Z790 HERO (DDR5 7200) review (Page 19)

You know it, every story needs a hero, and this story is all about the Z790 ROG Maximus Z790 HERO, which features multiple M2 slots (PCIe Gen4/Gen5a), a 2.5 GigE port, and WIFI6E, in addition to a rob...

www.guru3d.com

`13900K needs DDR5-7200 CL34 to beat 5800X3D in this game.

 

[Grimnir]

Still stuck at 4000 MT/s. Intel doesn't care about DDR4.

A bit disappointing that they did not upgrade the IMC for DDR4. Not that 4000 MT/s is bad, but still.

 

[Carfax83]

`13900K needs DDR5-7200 CL34 to beat 5800X3D in this game.

That review is totally GPU bottlenecked. As I and many others have said before, you can't take 13th gen or Zen 4 game performance reviews with anything less than an RTX 4090 seriously. They are just too bottlenecked.

Just look how bunched up those scores are.