Rate my FreeNAS ZFS box

[kt401]

Getting a bit tired of fumbling around with internal storage on my primary computer. PC is powered off or restarts for an update, movies stop streaming through the house, people can't access their data, everyone flips out, blah blah blah.

I'm finally going to stop being lazy and solve this problem for good with a NAS box utilizing FreeNAS and ZFS. Here's what I have in mind.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: RaidMax RX-380K 380W (In the closet... somewhere)
CPU: Intel Celeron G1610 (I've got one laying around)
MBoard: ASRock H61MV-ITX
RAM: 2x 4GB Kingston DDR3-1600 (I have one stick laying around)
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Whatcha think?

 

[Elixer]

Well, 8GB RAM is minimum for ZFS, at you are at the minimum. If possible, I would add more.

 

[rifken2]

if you are not using ECC then don't bother. They, the free as community, will not give support. Also, AMD CPUs are not supported, or at least not recommended.
I hang out in the freenas IRC channel all the time.

 

[kt401]

Well, 8GB RAM is minimum for ZFS, at you are at the minimum. If possible, I would add more.

Thanks! I'll try to use what I have on hand. If it's not enough, I'll definitely upgrade.

if you are not using ECC then don't bother. They, the free as community, will not give support. Also, AMD CPUs are not supported, or at least not recommended.
I hang out in the freenas IRC channel all the time.

Why is ECC a requirement for ZFS? Also, I'm not using AMD. I posted a low end Intel CPU.

 

[rifken2]

I just mentioned the AMD for anyone else that might read the thread. ECC has built in error checking. ZFS might be self healing but if your data is corrupt then your data is corrupt. The support channel says ECC will prevent corrupting your data.

 

[Elixer]

Good point on the ECC, I don't think the OP's motherboard supports it though.

 

[kt401]

I see, I understand your point.

This creates a problem for me. There are no Micro ITX boards that support LGA1155 and ECC memory. I'd have to get an newer board, ECC memory and an LGA1150 CPU. Not counting the drives, I'd be spending close to $500 as opposed to just $120... all for the sake of preserving data that's not critical and gets accessed infrequently.

Exactly how risky is this? I'd like to get a better understanding. Am I essentially dooming it to corruption from the get-go without ECC? Is ECC expensive insurance from an unlikely event?

 

[Elixer]

If you want server class reliability, then yes, ECC is the way to go.
If you use RAM that don't have that, then, it is *possible* that you will get a RAM issue, and you would have no way of knowing it, besides finding corrupted files.

Normally, if you keep backups of everything important, then ECC isn't really needed for home users.
There are also some RAM errors that ECC can't fix.

How often do RAM errors happen these days ? Not very, at least, assuming you thoroughly test the RAM in your environment before installing freenas.
I also assume you will have a UPS unit on this as well.

Oh, forgot to mention that I have seen many AMD based freenas machines, and I don't recall any issues. The thing about AMD is, they support ECC throughout their whole line, except the very low end, and IIRC, most motherboards also support ECC. (Then again, haven't checked in a few years the current status.)

 

[blastingcap]

Getting a bit tired of fumbling around with internal storage on my primary computer. PC is powered off or restarts for an update, movies stop streaming through the house, people can't access their data, everyone flips out, blah blah blah.

I'm finally going to stop being lazy and solve this problem for good with a NAS box utilizing FreeNAS and ZFS. Here's what I have in mind.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: RaidMax RX-380K 380W (In the closet... somewhere)
CPU: Intel Celeron G1610 (I've got one laying around)
MBoard: ASRock H61MV-ITX
RAM: 2x 4GB Kingston DDR3-1600 (I have one stick laying around)
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Whatcha think?

I didn't even need to read beyond the PSU to know your build is crap. Replace the PSU with something decent, and use ECC RAM. If mobo/CPU can't do ECC RAM then either upgrade those, too, or don't use ZFS.

 

[kt401]

Okay. You guys seem pretty serious about this ECC thing. I'll trust you.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W
CPU/MBoard: ASRock C2550D4I Mini ITX
RAM: 16GB Crucial DDR3-1600 ECC
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Better? It's much more expensive and I'm open to suggestions for cutting cost.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I see, I understand your point.

This creates a problem for me. There are no Micro ITX boards that support LGA1155 and ECC memory. I'd have to get an newer board, ECC memory and an LGA1150 CPU. Not counting the drives, I'd be spending close to $500 as opposed to just $120... all for the sake of preserving data that's not critical and gets accessed infrequently.

Exactly how risky is this? I'd like to get a better understanding. Am I essentially dooming it to corruption from the get-go without ECC? Is ECC expensive insurance from an unlikely event?

I used FreeNAS and ZFS without ECC RAM for a couple years and didn't have any data loss. It's one of those one-in-a-million-chance-of-being-absolutely-screwed-beyond-all-belief things.

For a home NAS like this, which you apparently use for a few different things, including media streaming, I would strongly encourage you NOT to use FreeNAS. It's finicky, the plug-ins almost never work as advertised, and the community has absolutely no interest in helping home users.

As for the hardware... well... I guess it depends on what you're willing to put up with. Low end consumer hardware like you're talking about will tend to be glitchy and require occasional reboots, vs. higher end server/workstation grade stuff that will be stable for years on end. The earlier comment about PSUs was legit - a bad one can fry your system when it goes. And an always-on machine should at least be 80+ certified anyway.

IMO: start with the system you're thinking of building - it could be worse. BUT, forget about FreeNAS. Install Ubuntu on a 16GB thumb drive, use mdadm to create a software RAID-5, install samba for file sharing and the video streaming server of your choice. If you want to do other fun stuff later, like have the NAS backed up to Crashplan or something, that's easy to do as well.

If you want to go a little upmarket without breaking the bank, just forget about ITX and go mATX. You can reuse your existing CPU with this thing:

This thing.

8GB of ECC RAM would probably be another $100. Plus there's lots of expansion, dual NICs, and IP KVM. See similar rig in my sig.

The Node 804 is a killer NAS case, if you have shelf space. But it's kinda pricey. Any old mATX minitower will work.

 

[Elixer]

Yeah, it gets pricey fast.
Just some more info on the ECC vs non-ECC http://nex7.blogspot.com/2014/03/ecc-vs-non-ecc-ram-great-debate.html

Is there a reason why you want to use ZFS in the first place, since, there are other options as well, like BTRFS (which don't need as much RAM as ZFS), and...
Seems like you are looking to create a media server ?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Okay. You guys seem pretty serious about this ECC thing. I'll trust you.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W
CPU/MBoard: ASRock C2550D4I Mini ITX
RAM: 16GB Crucial DDR3-1600 ECC
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Better? It's much more expensive and I'm open to suggestions for cutting cost.

That's a $270 Atom motherboard. No.

Do these:

$160 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813151295
$60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116950

Not only do you save $40, but it's faster.

 

[blastingcap]

Okay. You guys seem pretty serious about this ECC thing. I'll trust you.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W
CPU/MBoard: ASRock C2550D4I Mini ITX
RAM: 16GB Crucial DDR3-1600 ECC
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Better? It's much more expensive and I'm open to suggestions for cutting cost.

Nah, I think if you don't mind losing some data protection just forget about ZFS and ECC. Go with a cheaper normal desktop build with whatever parts you have laying around, but NOT with that Raidmax PSU. If a PSU goes down it can fry everything with it. The Earthwatts is ok. Corsair's 400W PSU is also ok.

 

[kt401]

Thanks all for the advice. I will look into this parts Dave. Thanks!

I chose ZFS primarily because I was looking into fast software RAID. I don't want to invest in a RAID card and these tiny boards don't have built-in controllers. I am open to suggestions here as well. Another reason is that I want to learn. I got into the tech industry less than a year ago and would like hands-on experience with something new and robust.

 

[XavierMace]

Okay. You guys seem pretty serious about this ECC thing. I'll trust you.

Case: CoolerMaster Elite 110
PSU: Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W
CPU/MBoard: ASRock C2550D4I Mini ITX
RAM: 16GB Crucial DDR3-1600 ECC
HDDs: 3x HGST Desktar NAS 3TB 7200 RPM

Better? It's much more expensive and I'm open to suggestions for cutting cost.

You have to pay to play.

Also, keep in mind if you're using FreeNAS to do Transcoding, that uses a lot of CPU. Especially if you're going to have more than one stream at a time. Here's some relevant info on that:

https://forums.plex.tv/index.php/topic/85205-freenas-transcoding-performance/

Regarding the benefits of consumer grade vs server grade... My buddy has to reboot his MediaSmart server every few weeks. Mine NAS has been up and running since I last shut it down for patching 243 days ago. It's REALLY nice not having to deal with reboots or other flaky behavior.

 

[nk215]

I have my NAS/Severs on 24/7 for a couple of years on regular ram w/o a issue.

You'll have PS, hard drive, memory, caps go bad and compromise your data way before silent corruption does, so back it up.

Many commercial high end NAS boxes do not have ECC and they've been doing fine in business environment.

Having said that, my most current NAS has ECC. My most recent file servers also has ECC (mostly because ECC no longer costs an arm and a leg like it used to).

 

[aigomorla]

That's a $270 Atom motherboard. No.

Do these:

$160 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813151295
$60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116950

Not only do you save $40, but it's faster.

im lost here...

why did you recommend a server board and have him get a normal G3220 cpu?
He would be required to get a E class to use ECC.

Or did I miss somewhere on the intel spec sheet that stated the G series can use ECC?


Also, the atom board he linked is a pretty solid atom server board which natively takes ECC.
It also has a lot more onboard SATA ports...
12 SATA ports on the ASrock vs 6 SATA on your Tyan.
It was designed by ASrock from ground up to be the Ideal NAS server board.

The C2550 Atom is not the typical ATOM processor I think your assuming it to be.
And it will draw a lot less power then the setup you linked by a noticable margin if you factor in the 24/7 on.

http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/94/Intel_Atom_C2550_vs_Intel_Core_i3_i3-3220.html

ZFS is not clockspeed dependent, its more memory dependent hence the large requirement.
So the OP will not notice any difference on the C2550 vs the G3220.

The only thing I would be wary of however is the fact its made by Asrock, which isn't enterprise noteworthy as per say supermicro / tyan.


To the OP.
I am also looking at that exact board for a new NAS setup.
It is really attractive because it has 12 SATA and can take ECC.
The other route would require you to get dedicated controller cards in order to get the extra sata ports.
But as I stated, the brand name ASrock kinda scares me.
I know they made nice stuff, but they have not been in the enterprise sector for a very long time.
Infact they started making budget class boards, which is typically not the route a enterprise based manufacture would take, as just being labeled enterprise usually carries a 200% price increase over its regular consumer counter part.

I would probably say its ultimately down to how many drives you intend to load your NAS with. If you did not require 6+ drives, then dave's recommendation is solid, however I would select a E class cpu for ECC compatibility.
If your intending to use more then 12 drives, then I would probably go with the ASrock, because getting dave's setup + a dedicated controller + battery backup for the dedicated controller + the fan out cables required for the dedicated controller, will probably end up costing you more in the long run with a lot more complications.

 

[kt401]

All CPU's support ECC memory, but not all motherboards do.

 

[aigomorla]

All CPU's support ECC memory, but not all motherboards do.

ah... your right...

it says on ark, it does accept ECC.
http://ark.intel.com/products/77773/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3220-3M-Cache-3_00-GHz

however your still looking at a 53W cpu vs a 14W avoton.
Also if your into data encryption, the Avoton has AES, where as the G3220 does not.

The Avoton also has a lot more L2 cache.
To me, honestly the Avoton makes more sense as being a better NAS server.
But as I said before the brand name is what scares me in a marathon race.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

ah... your right...

it says on ark, it does accept ECC.
http://ark.intel.com/products/77773/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3220-3M-Cache-3_00-GHz

however your still looking at a 53W cpu vs a 14W avoton.

Idle will be a lot closer to the same. TDP != power use.

Also if your into data encryption, the Avoton has AES, where as the G3220 does not.

1) it'll still work, just slower.
2) Use SEDs if you want encryption, then there's no CPU overhead anyway.

The Avoton also has a lot more L2 cache.
To me, honestly the Avoton makes more sense as being a better NAS server.

Only if you're doing nothing but NAS. If you want to transcode video or host a game server, the Pentium is still faster.

 

[aigomorla]

Only if you're doing nothing but NAS. If you want to transcode video or host a game server, the Pentium is still faster.

yeah, your correct on that...

If the OP wanted to do more with it, then your build obviously makes more sense.

 

[kt401]

Does transcoding benefit from additional cores?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Does transcoding benefit from additional cores?

Sure, although not all cores are created equal, and single-core performance matters for game servers.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

ah... your right...

it says on ark, it does accept ECC.
http://ark.intel.com/products/77773/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3220-3M-Cache-3_00-GHz

As a side note - I was rather frustrated by this. Celeron, Pentium, and i3 CPUs support ECC, but not Vt-d. i5 and i7 chips support Vt-d but not ECC. You need a Xeon to get both in the same box.