Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

[DisEnchantment]

With the GFX940 patches in full swing since first week of March, it is looking like MI300 is not far in the distant future!
Usually AMD takes around 3Qs to get the support in LLVM and amdgpu. Lately, since RDNA2 the window they push to add support for new devices is much reduced to prevent leaks.
But looking at the flurry of code in LLVM, it is a lot of commits. Maybe because US Govt is starting to prepare the SW environment for El Capitan (Maybe to avoid slow bring up situation like Frontier for example)

See here for the GFX940 specific commits

History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. - History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

github.com

Or Phoronix

More AMD "GFX940" Enablement Work Landing In LLVM - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

There is a lot more if you know whom to follow in LLVM review chains (before getting merged to github), but I am not going to link AMD employees.

I am starting to think MI300 will launch around the same time like Hopper probably only a couple of months later!
Although I believe Hopper had problems not having a host CPU capable of doing PCIe 5 in the very near future therefore it might have gotten pushed back a bit until SPR and Genoa arrives later in 2022.
If PVC slips again I believe MI300 could launch before it

This is nuts, MI100/200/300 cadence is impressive.



Previous thread on CDNA2 and RDNA3 here

Question - Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

Man I have been dying to make this one for a while now. First rumours for RDNA3 are here so new thread time! Just going to start off with this one for now: kopite7kimi on Twitter: "@VideoCardz Ah, I mean a simple mcm design with 10240 cores is not enough. Because the lift from RDNA2 to RDNA3...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[SolidQ]

For that AMD needs to think outside the box and stop following Nvidia.

Yeah, at least they made AFMF, which NV doesn't have. Interesting there is possible make compromise upscaling only for RT effects?

simply put the Radeon teams

feels like someone sabotage Radeon division.

quick sync is much better than NVENC.

NV pr still strong. AMD alveo is good, but that only AV1

 

[tajoh111]

Have you not been parroting this since the interest/ loans were becoming due days? Back then it was CPU, now its GPU. It is tiring. I mean it is the same lengthy paragraphs of doom and gloom all the way to the OCN heydays.

If you are an insider, please keep your NDA intact, and spare us the analysis of your predictions from years ago rhetoric. Please.

It is obvious you are Intel/Nvidia through and through. Always some sort of AMD has done this, that, or the other wrong, in your opinion.

It is so tiring. Like 10 years tiring.

At least maybe just try and be somewhat constructive with your criticism from the past ten years. So it is TLDR.

I am hardly criticizing what they are doing, actually the opposite. I am agreeing with their current actions about leaving high end and refocusing their resources as the high end discrete market is just a losing battle with little chance for victory.

I said similar praise for them in the past when they kind of stripped down the GPU division(which I was berated for) to focus on CPU which gave them the resources for Ryzen.

My last two desktop builds have been AMD processors and if you didn't see previously, I am not particularly optimistic about Intel's chances in the videocard market. It's not doom and gloom, it's realistic and observing the reality of the situation.

BTW I have also made some scathing remarks about Nvidia on overclock.net. As of late however, they are an execution machine and their financials are proof of this.

 

[SolidQ]

I am agreeing with their current actions about leaving high end and refocusing their resources as the high end discrete market is just a losing battle with little chance for victory.

They still have chance make UDNA 2k gpu, with good perfomance and sell it as AI card, like 4090. People buying 7900XTX for AI. Just need good software

 

[adroc_thurston]

MS will follow Sony, next gen xbox will copy PS6 in terms of GPU/AI feature sets.

6 years ago RT/AI upscaling was barely relevant and it wasn't

Point is, there are no "RT feature sets". RTRT is frozen in time.

quick sync is much better than NVENC.

Not really. But it's good.

That’s the point, make it so good the shills can’t move the goal posts.

That's what N4c was for.

For that AMD needs to think outside the box and stop following Nvidia.

Yes. Nothing 300CUs can't solve.

simply put the Radeon teams need to be more like Ryzen teams. Be the leader instead of following the carrot.

Ryzen isn't a product, it's just server table scraps served to hungry-hungry peasants.
Something that's not possible to do in graphics.

with little chance for victory.

Victory isn't hard. Making money off it is.

As of late however, they are an execution machine and their financials are proof of this.

GB200 is literally tumbling around like a meme. Be serious.

They still have chance make UDNA 2k gpu

Doesn't exist.
RDNA5 is 3 whole dies. That's it.

 

[SolidQ]

RDNA5 is 3 whole dies.

We don't have any news about it

 

[yuri69]

about Mi300

https://twitter.com/x/status/1871287937268383867

LMAO, imagine how the whole AMD management chain responsible for the software-side performs. What are the KPIs? How is the performance review process set? This must be so hilariously bad.

9070 XT would be beyond DOA at $600. Even at $500 it's a tough sell vs $600 5070.

The great pricing strategy of AMD is to price their dGPUs as (nV - a few tens $). So yea, I fully expect them to release the RDNA4 top end with a slow RT and half-broken drivers at $600 and call it a day.

 

[Keller_TT]

It doesn't have to, it just gotta have "AI" in the name.

It's so relevant MS hasn't made any DXR changes in 6 years. Be serious.

Unlikely. For cheaper stuff there's FSR2.

Mr. Thurston always seems to be the contrarian to the folks buying cards out there who vote with their wallets. Even the recent Sony PS5 Pro deep dive event pretty much declared the writing on the wall. That future efficiency and more bang for the silicon can only come through RT innovations and ML libraries (Project Amethyst) and traditional raster is at its limit.
As for me, I'm predominantly a Sim racer who needs the best VR performance and I dabble in Blender for some amateur personal modding. I had to sell my 7900 XT and get a 4080 because it's all so much easier with NV and I had to wait to see the Ngreedia price reduce.

 

[adroc_thurston]

We don't have any news about it

Someone already leaked the roadmap some time ago.

there who vote with their wallets

They vote for whatever NV card they can afford since ~2006 or so.

That future efficiency and more bang for the silicon can only come through RT innovations and ML libraries (Project Amethyst) and traditional raster is at its limit.

RTRT is inherently the opposite of silicon (or memory) efficiency lmao.

MAO, imagine how the whole AMD management chain responsible for the software-side performs. What are the KPIs? How is the performance review process set? This must be so hilariously bad.

This might be beyond obvious to some, but training isn't the focus at all.

 

[SolidQ]

As for me, I'm predominantly a Sim racer who needs the best VR performance and I dabble in Blender for some amateur personal modding. I had to sell my 7900 XT and get a 4080 because it's all so much easier with NV and I had to wait to see the Ngreedia price reduce

That also big problem for AMD, they avoid fixes like plague. For real they need new software team, which can be creative, feels like AMD software team is 70-80 years guys

 

[SolidQ]

Someone already leaked the roadmap some time ago

Zero news was about it. Also possible fake

 

[insertcarehere]

Ryzen isn't a product, it's just server table scraps served to hungry-hungry peasants.
Something that's not possible to do in graphics.

Spoken as if Nvidia hasn't been selling plenty of rebadged Turing/Ampere/Ada GPUs for a hefty markup to the professional space for years lmao. Or thinks that tensor cores doing matrix multiplication for DLSS upscaling, can't be repurposed for matrix multiplications elsewhere..

 

[adroc_thurston]

Spoken as if Nvidia hasn't been selling plenty of rebadged Turing/Ampere/Ada GPUs for a hefty markup to the professional space for years lmao.

That's really not what they're build for and you know it.

Or thinks that tensor cores doing matrix multiplication for DLSS upscaling, can't be repurposed for matrix multiplications elsewhere..

GEMM units everywhere are a price you gotta pay for preserving CUDA onion model, and they sort of broke it with H100 anyway.
Also the volume driver Turing parts (TU11x) had no GEMM cores. Next.

 

[gdansk]

traditional raster is at its limit.

He says as the 5090 is about to push raster another 1.5x.
And still it won't be enough for some High Quality "AAAA" games at 4K.
Raster keeps scaling despite more and more die area wasted on RT/ML crap. But it seems no one cares (you all are invited to argue why).

 

[insertcarehere]

That's really not what they're build for and you know it.

Who cares what they're supposedly built for? 4090s are gaming cards first but the US still restricts their imports to China all the same. The Ampere family encompasses both accelerator only (GA100) as well as dual-use cards (GA102 onwards) and Blackwell will be the same.

GEMM units everywhere are a price you gotta pay for preserving CUDA onion model, and they sort of broke it with H100 anyway.
Also the volume driver Turing parts (TU11x) had no GEMM cores. Next.

Point being the tensor core tech being developed are very much dual use between consumer and professional markets.

GTX1650 will still compile most CUDA code fine, can't say the same about RDNA1 and the mess that isROCm lmao.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Who cares what they're supposedly built for? 4090s are gaming cards first but the US still restricts their imports to China all the same. The Ampere family encompasses both accelerator only (GA100) as well as dual-use cards (GA102 onwards) and Blackwell will be the same.

Everyone? A purpose-build client part is a purpose-build client part.
Not in any way, shape or form comparable to something like Vermeer or Granite Ridge.

Point being the tensor core tech being developed are very much dual use between consumer and professional markets.

No it's just a price you gotta pay for CUDA compatability. But they found other uses too.

GTX1650 will still compile most CUDA code fine, can't say the same about RDNA1 and ROCm lmao.

Glad to hear.

 

[ajsdkflsdjfio]

He says as the 5090 is about to push raster another 1.5x.
And still it won't be enough for some High Quality "AAAA" games at 4K.
Raster keeps scaling despite more and more die area wasted on RT/ML crap. But it seems no one cares (you all are invited to argue why).

5090 pushes raster 1.5x with 1.32x the cuda cores(meaning 1.32x die size atleast likely), and 1.25x the power while costing 1.5x the previous gen (street pricing). There's a reason why raster is still able to be pushed forward, it's because Nvidia has just increased the price of their cards by 2-3x over the past decade, and pushing power(GTX titan 250w vs 5090 600w), all to keep the same level of historical uplifts(1080 was also 1.5x the 980 btw at only 50$ more, and using the same exact power). At a certain point they can't keep doing this though which is why they are leaning into upscaling technology, AI technology in general, and possibly cloud-computing like with their (unsuccesful)ventures into geforce now/nvidia shield.

 

[Keller_TT]

He says as the 5090 is about to push raster another 1.5x.
And still it won't be enough for some High Quality AAAA games at 4K 120.

I'm only relaying what Mark Cenry said w.r.t what'll make sense for premium consoles going forward within a silicon budget, and to keep it all packaged nice and tight. The PS5 Pro is ~RX 6800 raster with RT closer to 4070, with the SoC power efficiency the best it can be. It's pretty much a testing ground to advance Sony's proprietary technologies and graphics stack to be as mature and efficient as it can be for PS6 (probably launching in 2027).

 

[marees]

We don't have any news about it

Shall we create a RDNA 5 thread based on this info ??

 

[gdansk]

5090 pushes raster 1.5x with 1.32x the cuda cores(meaning 1.32x die size atleast likely), and 1.25x the power while costing 1.5x the previous gen (street pricing). There's a reason why raster is still able to be pushed forward, it's because Nvidia has just increased the price of their cards by 2-3x over the past decade, and pushing power(GTX titan 250w vs 5090 600w), all to keep the same level of historical uplifts(1080 was also 1.5x the 980 btw at only 50$ more, and using the same exact power). At a certain point they can't keep doing this though which is why they are leaning into upscaling technology, AI technology in general, and possibly cloud-computing like with their (unsuccesful)ventures into geforce now/nvidia shield.

The limits to raster performance remains memory bandwidth. RT needs more buffers and specialized hardware on top of that. It hits the same memory bandwidth wall but even earlier. The idea that somehow raster is any more tapped out than RT is suspect. RT has more market headroom because most people don't care about playing at 4K 120Hz+ but rather see visual flair to justify their purchase even if it's subnative and half the frame rate. But it's not a technical limit.

And jesus I thought the cloud-compute gaming meme died with the XBONE.

 

[ajsdkflsdjfio]

The limits to raster performance remains memory bandwidth. RT needs more buffers and specialized hardware on top of that. It hits the same memory bandwidth wall but even earlier. The idea that somehow raster is any more tapped out than RT is suspect. RT has more market headroom because most people don't care about playing at 4K 120Hz+ but rather see visual flair to justify their purchase even if it's subnative and half the frame rate. But it's not a technical limit.

I don't disagree, but raster is definitely getting to the point where improvements in raster are coming at higher and higher costs to consumers, even if not tapped out in a technical sense. A side effect of transistor costs no doubt. Either way it is not sustainable because eventually people are gonna buy less and less of the new +40-50% generation that costs +30-40% percent more as well. Unless something radical happens, I doubt people want to spend 10k on a GPU in 2034.

 

[gaav87]

Yeah, at least they made AFMF, which NV doesn't have. Interesting there is possible make compromise upscaling only for RT effects?


feels like someone sabotage Radeon division.


NV pr still strong. AMD alveo is good, but that only AV1

Interesting idea RT "ray generation" could be done for rayCast. But would it have any performance benefits?. Basically guessing the ray position w/o actually calculating it from the previous postion is interesting idea.

 

[Joe NYC]

Ryzen isn't a product, it's just server table scraps served to hungry-hungry peasants.

Ryzen revenue is higher than EPYC, and client margin is improving.

New AMD CFO, Jean Hu, is not a fool (like Intel Intel's in the past which killed / sold off low margin divisions). Jean likes margin dollars as mush as margin rates.

Meaning if she can't get high margin %, will settle for margin $s at lower margin %. I think Lisa Su broadly agrees with her.

Which, to me, implies that AMD will in fact go for market share, especially on the CPU side, and at some point in GPU too. Just depends on what kind of weapons AMD has at its disposal.

Also NVidia is, IMO, worried about regulators, perhaps more than about AMD. Splitting NVidia could be a mortal blow.

So IMO, NVidia is not going to participate in any price war with AMD. Which means, that AMD, could hold its own or improve in market share of both client and datacenter divisions.

There is an ace that AMD is holding, which is Strix Halo. It can, potentially, take more market share from NVidia client dGPU than AMD's dGPU division. Which is why NVidia is moving quickly in this area, but AMD has 1 year head start and x86 license.

 

[SmokSmog]

The PS5 Pro is ~RX 6800 raster with RT closer to 4070

 

[Keller_TT]

Did they manage to replicate the CPU bottleneck from Zen2 3700S? Sony's reasoning was that *for most games to push 60 FPS* Not 120, they don't a mid-gen CPU upgrade.
And your screenshot means nothing by itself as some devs are exceedingly good at optimization and others just suck. There are some standout results for the Pro that get the best out of the new hardware.

 

[RnR_au]

GTX1650 will still compile most CUDA code fine, can't say the same about RDNA1 and the mess that isROCm lmao.

r/localllama folk are reporting the 5700xt cards are working ok with rocm with a couple of tweaks.

From my understanding rocm has come a very long way in the last year. Still not perfect ofcause, I managed to get it working with an RX 6600 for AI inference under linux.