Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

[DisEnchantment]

With the GFX940 patches in full swing since first week of March, it is looking like MI300 is not far in the distant future!
Usually AMD takes around 3Qs to get the support in LLVM and amdgpu. Lately, since RDNA2 the window they push to add support for new devices is much reduced to prevent leaks.
But looking at the flurry of code in LLVM, it is a lot of commits. Maybe because US Govt is starting to prepare the SW environment for El Capitan (Maybe to avoid slow bring up situation like Frontier for example)

See here for the GFX940 specific commits

History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. - History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

github.com

Or Phoronix

More AMD "GFX940" Enablement Work Landing In LLVM - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

There is a lot more if you know whom to follow in LLVM review chains (before getting merged to github), but I am not going to link AMD employees.

I am starting to think MI300 will launch around the same time like Hopper probably only a couple of months later!
Although I believe Hopper had problems not having a host CPU capable of doing PCIe 5 in the very near future therefore it might have gotten pushed back a bit until SPR and Genoa arrives later in 2022.
If PVC slips again I believe MI300 could launch before it

This is nuts, MI100/200/300 cadence is impressive.



Previous thread on CDNA2 and RDNA3 here

Question - Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

Man I have been dying to make this one for a while now. First rumours for RDNA3 are here so new thread time! Just going to start off with this one for now: kopite7kimi on Twitter: "@VideoCardz Ah, I mean a simple mcm design with 10240 cores is not enough. Because the lift from RDNA2 to RDNA3...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[beginner99]

No gain? Where do you think the HBM and chiplets that MI300 abundantly uses come from? Oh! And X3D processors are just an offshoot of server experiments with stacked cache.

Well NV uses HBM too in their AI cards and they never had a consumer card with it. So not like it's mandatory to use expensive tech in consumer cards.

 

[Timorous]

but why experiment with expensive tech on cheap consumer cards? why not do that with the pro / datacenter cards? first and trickle down? nvidia is fine without needing this.

I don't think the RDNA 3 solution was that expensive, and I don't think its failure was down to chiplets in and of themselves but some late issue they saw that they could not mitigate.

I do think the Navi 4c idea was expensive but that was born from MI300 so it was pro tech trickling down. I guess the issue was making that actually work in a gaming space, especially in an AI boom where 4c would take up rather critical packaging capacity at the cost of selling more MI parts at higher margin.

I guess AMD might revisit that in the consumer space when they have UDNA so they can design one chiplet and use it in both pro and consumer spaces in the same way the CCDs for Zen are used in server and client parts.

 

[madtronik]

Well NV uses HBM too in their AI cards and they never had a consumer card with it. So not like it's mandatory to use expensive tech in consumer cards.

HBM in consumer cards was an experiment in productizing the technology. AMD was first with this. It's just that later they had no market to sell it until recently. They thought that cost would go down much faster and they would be able to profitably sell consumer products with HBM.

 

[Kepler_L2]

I guess AMD might revisit that in the consumer space when they have UDNA so they can design one chiplet and use it in both pro and consumer spaces in the same way the CCDs for Zen are used in server and client parts.

You can't do that since there are significant differences between gaming and DC.

 

[jpiniero]

You can't do that since there are significant differences between gaming and DC.

It would be nice if they could reuse dies across all of the client products at least.

 

[MrTeal]

- Yep. NV is an execution machine. In fact Blackwell is probably their first real stumble since Fermi, and before Fermi their last real stumble was NV35/5900. They just don't really mess up all that often, and they always ALWAYS offer a top to bottom stack. Every. Single. Time.

NV owners more or less always have an NV card to upgrade to in the next gen. AMD owners often find themselves in a situation where they also only have an NV card to upgrade to in a subsequent gen. Do that for 20+ years and the market is inevitably going to end up badly lopsided.

Part of that is also NV's execution across all the areas of product design. Others have mentioned the 290X vs 780Ti and how that was panned, and that was a lesson NV learned 20 years ago and hasn't made since. Their reference coolers that ship with reviews certainly haven't historically been as good as a top tier AIB, but they haven't fallen flat on their faces like AMD has.
Part of that is panicky last minute changes to power profiles, but while they can make good silicon the rest of the product design seems an afterthought. They completely botched the launch of Hawaii with that cooler, and then proceeded to learn nothing and launch a 150W Polaris with a loud and annoying reference cooler. Even when they're putting out what should be great products they seem to not be able to avoid stepping on their toes.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

HBM is gone, chiplets are gone

Neither is gone. They're both present in the Instinct line.

Well NV uses HBM too in their AI cards and they never had a consumer card with it. So not like it's mandatory to use expensive tech in consumer cards.

Nvidia can afford to outspend AMD's R&D budget. Which they do.

In FY2024 they spent almost twice as much as AMD did.

 

[adroc_thurston]

In FY2024 they spent almost twice as much as AMD did.

sure didn't help client Blackwell an iota

 

[maddie]

AMD looking far ahead is what gave them Ryzen. To take market share from NV they need a silver bullet and being the 1st to fix the issues with chiplets and getting that actually working could be that silver bullet since it would be far more cost effective to build that super halo part than designing a 750mm die that they can only sell at consumer margins since NV have also got a huge advantage in the professional space with CUDA. The only way NV make it work is because they can put it into pro cards at huge margins and then some can go to a 5090.

Consistency first.

What you are promoting is the problem. The fantasy of a Nvidia slaying silver bullet. You need a magazine of them. Zen did this, Radeon did not. Boom and bust repeatedly.

Note,' the silver bullet mindset seems like Intel of late.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

sure didn't help client Blackwell an iota

-Sure seemed to help them in the AI space though...

Just more fingers in more pies so when an opportunity comes along you're better ready to capitalize on it. That's all R&D is.

But you know this...

 

[adroc_thurston]

-Sure seemed to help them in the AI space though

Nope, B100 was rife with issues too.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

sure didn't help client Blackwell an iota

2024 R&D spendings probably didn't have much to do with Blackwell anyways.


Though I did start hearing from colleagues that Nvidia has become super bloated and slow. They kept hiring every single AI-related person they could find with very high salaries while not really keeping up with new projects. That means many of the older and more experienced employees (with millionaire salaries) are sitting aside doing nothing because they have an army of rookies doing all the stuff for them.

I wouldn't expect the R&D expenditure to match the output, though it is still expected of them to progress more than AMD and Intel, given the large gap in available money.

 

[blckgrffn]

2024 R&D spendings probably didn't have much to do with Blackwell anyways.


Though I did start hearing from colleagues that Nvidia has become super bloated and slow. They kept hiring every single AI-related person they could find with very high salaries while not really keeping up with new projects. That means many of the older and more experienced employees (with millionaire salaries) are sitting aside doing nothing because they have an army of rookies doing all the stuff for them.

I wouldn't expect the R&D expenditure to match the output, though it is still expected of them to progress more than AMD and Intel, given the large gap in available money.

Maybe the new hires have boated salaries but they aren't sitting on mega nvidia stock portfolios and could leave any time. As a manager, knowing that so many of my employees has "FU I QUIT" money would make me think I need to pivot really quickly.

I'd also want those people "who won" the stock market lottery to reduce their hours and live their lives.

It's a weird spot, though.

 

[adroc_thurston]

2024 R&D spendings probably didn't have much to do with Blackwell anyways.

Yeah but they've been keeping it pretty high for a while.

I wouldn't expect the R&D expenditure to match the output, though it is still expected of them to progress more than AMD and Intel, given the large gap in available money

Not really.
ARM builds really good IP on a shoestring budget.
It's a talent question.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Nope, B100 was rife with issues too.

- Worked well enough with GA100 and GH100. They can't all be zingers...

 

[GodisanAtheist]

2024 R&D spendings probably didn't have much to do with Blackwell anyways.


Though I did start hearing from colleagues that Nvidia has become super bloated and slow. They kept hiring every single AI-related person they could find with very high salaries while not really keeping up with new projects. That means many of the older and more experienced employees (with millionaire salaries) are sitting aside doing nothing because they have an army of rookies doing all the stuff for them.

I wouldn't expect the R&D expenditure to match the output, though it is still expected of them to progress more than AMD and Intel, given the large gap in available money.

- Sounds like I need to apply. I used Chat GPT once and noodled on a couple gen AI apps from time to time.

300K with options plz.

 

[yuri69]

HBM in consumer cards was an experiment in productizing the technology. AMD was first with this. It's just that later they had no market to sell it until recently. They thought that cost would go down much faster and they would be able to profitably sell consumer products with HBM.

HBM1 contributed to the fact Fiji failed to replace successful Hawaii as a valid highend SKU. HBM2 made the entire Vega lineup awkward with the Vega 11 cancelled and Vega 12 transformed to a Apple-only niche. That's not good as "an experiment".

 

[gaav87]

Taiwan commercial times just reported 5070 and 5060 might be delayed due to performance issues after taiwan earthquake and need extra time for debuging.
Guess we see 9070 in april

 

[soresu]

ARM builds really good IP on a shoestring budget.

Is it still shoestring since SoftBank acquired them though?

 

[MrTeal]

Taiwan commercial times just reported 5070 and 5060 might be delayed due to performance issues after taiwan earthquake and need extra time for debuging.
Guess we see 9070 in april

Hopefully not. Who knows what stock is going to be like for the 5070 launch anyway, but I don't think even the denizens of r/nvidia are expecting the 5070 to be impressive or be available at $500. AMD might as well launch like they planned, they're going to sell out their launch stock anyway.

 

[IEC]

Taiwan commercial times just reported 5070 and 5060 might be delayed due to performance issues after taiwan earthquake and need extra time for debuging.
Guess we see 9070 in april

Press X to doubt

 

[adroc_thurston]

Is it still shoestring since SoftBank acquired them though?

a) yeah
b) SoftBank hasn't owned ARM for eons.

 

[gaav87]

Press X to doubt

The taiwan newspaper or the april joke ?

 

[RnR_au]

b) SoftBank hasn't owned ARM for eons.

Softbank owns 88% of ARM.

 

[gaav87]

I have, a gut feeling Jensen is playing cat and mouse with AMD... IF amd releases their usual -50/100$ or even worse try to match it with 549$/749$ (cause "real" msrp is 899$ or w/e). Jensen will just provide huge supply of 5070ti and 5070 at close to msrp and that will kill amd launch. So either way 499$ is bad 749$ is bad... 479$/579$ is the way to go.