Re: RIAA, MPAA, DMCA, CBDTPA, etc.

[gargantuan]

<< "There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."

- Robert A. Heinlein >>



Thoughts, comments welcome.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

If I were coherent enough to understand it, and it's against the RIAA, then I'm all for it.

nik (goes back to bed)

 

[eakers]

MDMA?


this thread is pending eakers approval.

 

[Vortex22]

Robert A. Heinlein for president!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

<< Robert A. Heinlein for president! >>

*wakes from his sleep startled

wh- wha? What's going on?!

*dances around the room, copying Vortex22, nervously trying to fit in and look like he was paying attention

 

[ElFenix]

the statement is applicable because the US gov't is trying to strengthen what is already the tightest set of copyright laws in the world.

 

[tcsenter]

<< This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. >>

Apparently, Heinlein only claims the existence of those parts of the United States Constitution that he likes...

Article 1, Sec. 8: The Congress shall have Power [clause 7] "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

 

[hudster]

for limited Times


exactly.

 

[Instagib]

LSD

 

[tcsenter]

<< for limited Times...exactly. >>

There is no such thing as an 'infinite copyright or patent', they're all "limited".

What you're missing is that Heinlein was simply FLAT WRONG when he said there was no support for such a doctrine in law. Ok, I'm sorry, Heinlein was completely correct when he said there was no support for such a doctrine in "law". The support for such a doctrine is a provision of our FEDERAL CONSTITUTION.

Provisions of The Constitution of the United States are generally not considered "laws".

Besides, taking statements out of context is always a risky and messy business. I'm sure there was a particular case or incident Heinlein was referring to, probably one that has nothing in common with the position Heinlein's statement is being cited in support of.

 

[signalman]

RAH was not opposed to copyright laws. He would have died a pauper if his stories and novels had not been protected by copyright.

Heinlein was opposed to the indefinite extension of these laws, so that, for instance, a work could stay under copyright for centuries.

My favorite SF writer, Spider Robinson, wrote a little story dealing with this. Spider dedicated the story to Virginia Heinlein (Robert's widow.)

Melancholy Elephants

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

<< LSD >>

I won't tell if you don't

nik

 

[Vic]

<<

<< "There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."

- Robert A. Heinlein >>



Thoughts, comments welcome. >>



That quote is from Life Line, one of Heinlein's earliest published works (1939?). In it, a scientist invents a machine which can predict the exact time and date of an individual's death. Naturally, the life insurance companies are none too pleased with this new invention. After all, what value is life insurance if an individual knows exactly when he is going to die? The insurance companies sue and the quote above is from the judge in that court (IIRC, Life Line is a ~30 page short story, I haven't read it in about 5 years, but I always loved and remembered that passage).
Heinlein was an author (obviously) who lived off the royalties from his copyrighted, published works. With his well-known opinion on theft ("I'm too stinking proud to steal," To Sail Beyond the Sunset), I'm very sure that he was (or would have been) against piracy, but he would have been completely against expansive federal laws like the CBDTPA. After all, he was the person who coined the phrase "A state-supported artist is an incompetent whore."



<< Article 1, Sec. 8: The Congress shall have Power [clause 7] "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;" >>


Exactly, limited times.
My personal opinion is that copyrights and patents should go back to being to individuals ONLY, not corporations, and that they should last only as long as the original artist/inventor/author is still alive. This new push to make copyrights and patents permanent is outrageous. While I fully support the right of authors/artists/inventors to be compensated for their works, it should be rememberd that there is no truly original work. Shakespeare never had an original plot, James Watt didn't invent the steam engine (he merely improved it), Thomas Edison didn't invent the electric light bulb (he found the best filament), and Disney still hasn't paid the estates of the Brothers Grimm.

 

[tcsenter]

<< The insurance companies sue and the quote above is from the judge in that court (IIRC, Life Line is a ~30 page short story, I haven't read it in about 5 years, but I always loved and remembered that passage). >>

lol! Thank you for pointing out that our "Heinlein quote" is a fraud. I should have seen this coming, this is probably the 10th time I've seen someone quote a Heinlein CHARACTER and attribute it to the AUTHOR.

<< , but he would have been completely against expansive federal laws like the CBDTPA. After all, he was the person who coined the phrase "A state-supported artist is an incompetent whore." >>

Well now that is a bit presumptuous, heck it is VERY presumptuous, given that Heinlein was referring to 'artists' who survive on endowments and grants funded wholly or substantially by TAX MONEY, not using the court system to protect their works from theft.

 

[Vic]

Ah, tcsenter, you clearly have not read Heinlein.
First, it is a known fact that he frequently aired his personal opinions in his books and through his characters. If you're unclear about this, perhaps you should read some of his non-fiction, like say Take Back Your Government: A Practical Handbook for the Private Citizen?
Second, my statement was not presumptious. I feel that it is dead-on. The CBDTPA is not about using the "court system to protect their works from theft." That system is already in place. The CBDTPA is about the government forcing companies to tailor-make their products and technologies in such a way as that theft could never be possible. Hence, the state support and the incompetent whore.

Hey, don't your employers at that buggy whip manufacturer, aka Disney, get upset when you spend too much time cruising the forums instead of working?

 

[tcsenter]

<< Ah, tscenter, you clearly have not read Heinlein. >>

You're absolutely correct, I'm not fond of fantastical fiction, never have been. Even as a child I would read something like Moby Dick and come to a part that was just too utterly fantastic to believe could actually happen, something that isn't even plausible or rational (like inventing a machine that could predict everyone's date of death), so I'd throw the book across the room and shout "What a heap of rubbish! Nobody could do that."

<< First, it is a known fact that he frequently aired his personal opinions in his books and through his characters. >>

No author doesn't! You certainly cannot claim to "know" or have some "mystic sense" of when Heinlein was speaking for himself > through > one of his characters, and it is certainly dishonest to quote a Heinlein character and attribute it as Heinlein's own statement, wouldn't you agree?

<< second, my statement was not presumptious. I feel that it is dead-on. The CBDTPA is not about using the "court system to protect their works from theft." That system is already in place. The CBDTPA is about the government forcing companies to tailor-make their products and technologies in such a way as that theft could never be possible. Hence, the state support and the incompetent whore. >>

Correction, the stated government effort is to make theft more difficult, that is all. No one entertains the delusion that all theft can be stopped - its a fantasy.

No effort is of this sort is intended to stop all [insert undesired activity here], it is intended to raise the bar higher than most people are capable or willing to go, like any other law.

<< Hey, don't your employers at that buggy whip manufacturer, aka Disney, get upset when you spend too much time cruising the forums instead of working? >>

I'm unemployed, but nice try!

 

[GermyBoy]

I want to copy all the cds in his house.

 

[jjones]

<< No author doesn't! You certainly cannot claim to "know" or have some "mystic sense" of when Heinlein was speaking for himself > through > one of his characters, and it is certainly dishonest to quote a Heinlein character and attribute it as Heinlein's own statement, wouldn't you agree? >>


I'm not sure I follow this. Many authors, if not most, speak through the voice of their characters, especially their protagonists. Generally, you can identify the thoughts of an author when speaking through a character by comparing what the character says to what non-fictional work, interviews, etc. the author has done.

Through the narrative and from important contributions from the dialogue of a story, depending on the author's writing style, do we get an understanding the author's ideas and message. Thereby it is easy to contribute a characters words to as coming from an author.

Much of Charles Dickens' thought, as well as many of the classic writers, is spoken by his characters. Heinlein is a classic writer in the same vein, just different genre; as is Asimov, Clarke and other science fiction writers.

 

[Vic]

This might be a little OT, but I think it serves to demonstrate my opinion that the goal of the RIAA/MPAA and their proposed laws, like the CBDTPA, is not to (just) punish pirates but to alter and retard technology in such a way as to make even attempting pirating nearly impossible. Some, I am sure, do not see what is wrong with that, so I will attempt to explain by giving an example.
This weekend, I stopped by a local computer store and ended up picking up a copy of the new PowerDVD 4.0 (it was cheap). My DVD player at home is a PC, an older one (Celly 533a@800) hooked up to my TV and stereo. I like this. The picture is just as good as any regular DVD player (an expensive DVD player actually, with pan and scan, progressive scan, and multiple zoom settings), it plays my legal mp3's much more easily and quickly than constantly swapping out CD's, and I can browse the web and even play Q3 and RtCW right on my TV. It's also a very cool novelty to show off to guests.
So last night I rent a DVD (Spy Game, btw), install the new version of PowerDVD that I had bought over the weekend, and sit down to watch a movie that I had legally rented, to use for its legal purpose. And what happened? "Error: this copy-protected DVD will not work while the TV-out function on your video card is enabled."
Excuse me? Since when is it a crime to watch DVDs on your TV? Since when does using the TV-out function on your vid card mean that you are a pirate?
So I uninstalled PowerDVD 4.0 and reinstalled PowerDVD 3.0 and I watched the movie, no problems this time. Near as I could tell, the ONLY difference between versions 3.0 and 4.0 was to include this new feature.

I rest my case.

 

[Linflas]

<< That system is already in place. The CBDTPA is about the government forcing companies to tailor-make their products and technologies in such a way as that theft could never be possible. Hence, the state support and the incompetent whore. >>


Exactly and this crap has been going on since these pinheads killed DAT for anything other than backup devices. They are a bunch of clueless Luddites that would rather put their collective heads in the sand or up the backsides of judges and politicians rather than actually think of a way to profit from new technology. The truly scary thing is that they have now managed to string congress along on some of these whacky schemes hence the CBDTPA and the DMCA.

 

[tcsenter]

<< I'm not sure I follow this. >>

Its pretty simple idiot. You CANNOT by any manner of intellectual honesty claim that "Heinlein believed or said [this]" because the character in one of Heinlein's works of fantasy fiction believed or said "[this]", nor can you quote a Heinlein CHARACTER and attribute the statement or opinion to Heinlein, no more than you could quote Kermit the Frog and claim it was the opinion, sentiment, position, or statement of Jim Henson. Like this, see:

Wrong:

"Its not easy being green." - Jim Henson

Correct:

"Its not easy being green." - Kermit the Frog (a fictional character created by Jim Henson)

This is so simple a five year old can understand it.

 

[Vic]

tcsenter, I'm gonna say this once again: you clearly have not read Heinlein, and I once again suggest you read some of his non-fiction work, interviews, biographies, etc. Heinlein was very out-spoken about his political views and the majority of his books are very political, quite a few of them to the point where the science fiction was just the backdrop and the political point he was trying to make was the actual story (i.e. Starship Troopers). If you haven't read anything he has written, then you don't know and you don't have the right to have an opinion on this topic. Comparing his work to Kermit the Frog merely underscores your ignorance. With the possible exception of The Dark Crystal, Henson created children's fantasy without alterior motive or unlying meaning. With Heinlein, even his somewhat for children books (like Have Spacesuit Will Travel or Citizen of the Galaxy) have strong political and sociological messages, and always beliefs which he personally held.
Actually do some research and you'll see that the quote given at the beginning at this thread was something which he strongly believed.

 

[tcsenter]

<< tcsenter, I'm gonna say this once again: you clearly have not read Heinlein, and I once again suggest you read some of his non-fiction work, interviews, biographies, etc. Heinlein was very out-spoken about his political views and the majority of his books are very political..blah blah...Actually do some research and you'll see that the quote given at the beginning at this thread was something which he strongly believed. >>

Then you should have no trouble whatsoever PUTTING UP OR SHUTTING UP by quoting Heinlein himself, out of all of these substantial non-fiction works where HEINLEIN, not a fictional character of Heinlein, but Heinlein himself expresses his own personal opinions and sentiments, which would lend support to the contention that 'Heinlein really believed this anyway'.

I'm waiting....

 

[Vic]

You'll have to wait awhile... I actually have a job.

 

[tcsenter]

<< You'll have to wait awhile... I actually have a job. >>

Fair enough, just remember...

Incorrect:

"Son, when you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or loose, its how drunk you get." - Matt Groening

Correct:

"Son, when you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or loose, its how drunk you get." - Homer J. Simpson (fictional character created by Matt Groening)

Incorrect:

"It was 'lection day, and I was just about to go and vote myself if I warn't too drunk to get there; but when they told me there was a State in this country where they'd let that great person vote, I drawed out. I says I'll never vote agin. Them's the very words I said; they all heard me; and the country may rot for all me -- I'll never vote agin as long as I live." - Mark Twain

Correct:

"It was 'lection day, and I was just about to go and vote myself if I warn't too drunk to get there; but when they told me there was a State in this country where they'd let that great person vote, I drawed out. I says I'll never vote agin. Them's the very words I said; they all heard me; and the country may rot for all me -- I'll never vote agin as long as I live." - "Pap" (Huck Finn's father) from 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn' written by Mark Twain

Is this getting through to anyone??