Recent graduate looking for advice

[seanbrown5]

Hello anandtech-ers, thanks for reading...

I recently graduated from UW with my bachelors in Computer Science and Software. I was on Dean's list, have a very good grasp of programming principles and Java, databases (Sql), GIS and even lower level machine language (though I have no experience with anything other than the educational machine we used in class for machine language).

I have been out of school since December and have put in applications at the "big 5" software companies with no hits. I have a cousin and a good friend who work for Microsoft and they both had some advice for me after looking at my resume: I need more experience. I don't have any projects listed on my resume, as I have only really programmed for projects at the UW.
To anyone who is currently employed or has recently gained employment at a software co.: Is there any other advice you can give me?
To anyone who has an idea for a project or is currently working on a side project that may need an assistant: Please contact me with details! Apparently I need to "pad" my resume

Thanks!

 

[ObscureCaucasian]

Have you only applied to "the big 5"? What domain of programming are you interested in (web, apps, embedded, etc).

 

[Markbnj]

You don't need to "pad" your resume. You need actual work experience. It's a catch-22, I know, and often a bit of a cold shower for recent CS grads. Your education will serve you well, but in order to turn it into a living you're going to have to get your foot in the door someplace, somehow. Applying to the "Big 5" is not wrong, but it's nowhere near enough for a complete strategy. Check out sites like dice.com. Search for "junior" or "entry level" along with the languages/platforms you can actually sit down and do work in right off the bat.

 

[EvilManagedCare]

Think as hard about projects you did in school and maybe some of the ones you did later in your career at UW will be worth mentioning on the resume. Also maybe if you did any side projects while in school they could be mentioned. It seems like most curricula now require some kind of senior project. Ideally this could be what you cite on your resume. That was pretty much the highlight on mine. I think I only had 2-3 projects I felt worth mentioning or something that could have at least a remote connection to professional programming.
To get involved in projects you could always check out source forge or Microsoft's equivalent (I can't remember its name). This can be difficult though, because the large number of projects make it difficult to choose. And many of the projects are not managed well or dead.

A hiring manager from Oracle spoke at the university I attended. She suggested approaching social service agencies (or really any type of non-profit group would probably do) and offering to develop some sort of needed application for free. I thought she was crazy, but it's actually a good idea. Agencies like those are typically far behind the technology curve and even the simplest of applications would be welcome. Just make sure you set firm boundaries about exactly what kind of maintenance you'll be providing and for how long.

You can also check your area for programmer groups. For example, in the metro Detroit area there are Java programmer groups in Ann Arbor & another that helps sponsor day-long seminars that have actually attracted some interesting speakers. These sorts of things can be good ways to network.

Every profession holds this challenge for the new graduate. Stick with it, and eventually you'll find something. But whatever you do, no matter how desperate, do not embellish your resume. It's easy to BS your way through interviews, but they'll certainly find out soon enough your shortcomings.

 

[BlueMeanie]

If you haven't already, you might want to look at the public sector jobs in your area. I work as a Programmer for local government and a lot of our programming staff comes from the CS division out of the local college. It is a decent living if you end up staying, but it will also work great to build your experience if you feel like moving on to the private sector.

 

[patrick409]

Does UW have career counseling/recruitment resources you can use? Usually larger companies that hire entry level positions for their analyst level programs will post those openings at various schools' career websites.

That's how I (and pretty much all my undergrad classmates) got my first job out of college.

Did you work in any programming related part time jobs while you were in school? I never had any "projects" to speak of, but I worked in an informatics department at school for 3 years which was more than enough to satisfy employers.

One suggestion for building experience and things to put on your resume: find some open source projects to contribute to (github might be a good start)

 

[esun]

Basically you need to get in to interviews and then do well in them. I assume if you're smart and prepare, you can do well in an interview. So the question is how to get offered the interview in the first place.

There are two ways to do this in my experience as a new grad:

1. Have a good GPA from a top school (or maybe an excellent GPA from a good school).
2. Get a friend to recommend you at a company you want to work for (of course assuming you have friends that work at the companies you want to work for who know you are a good coder and are willing to vouch for you).

BTW, I'm a software engineer and I do college recruiting and first-round interviews at my company so I see a lot of resumes from new grads. Getting involved in a side project probably won't help you land the interview. The reason is that if I'm sorting through 200 resumes, I don't have time to sort based on side projects I know nothing about. Choosing candidates to interview will typically start with school and GPA (with a strong emphasis on CS grades). Once you get into an interview, perhaps being able to talk intelligently about side projects will help, but before then probably not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Search the job boards for entry level positions or those that are listed for interns.

 

[beginner99]

I think the main point is to keep expectations low especially in terms of salary. I would say the first job is the hardest to get because you lack the important experience. And in CS that is much more important than in other areas.

So the common thing is get an entry level job and then switch after about 3 years. Sadly it is very hard to get a meaningful salary bump without switching employers, at least here.

On the other hand don't be afraid to apply for jobs you don't really seem to fit to well or you feel unqualified for. My first job = current one said 3-5 years experience and other stuff I didn't have much clue about (however it was an admin job, not programming/ development, initially. Once the foot is in can push that door open yourself. )

 

[seanbrown5]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The difficult part for me personally is that I have worked at a large wholesale company for almost 12 years now, and I am currently working in IT at their corporate office (I offer 2nd level support for all network connected hardware devices in the company). I am making decent money now and have great benefits/vacation. Taking a step back right now is an option but not a very appealing one. I own a home and have many other expenses that would probably not be possible with a junior/entry level programming position at a smaller company. Thus, the reason for applying at the "big 5", being Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Boeing and Apple.
I guess "padding" was not the word I was looking for. It makes sense that sorting resumes would be based more upon the GPA and school than anything, which is what I suspected. I can talk about projects I've done in school all day long in an interview, so that is not a problem. The problem for me is that I haven't really found a project that I am willing to spend my spare time on (of which I have very little - I work about 60 hours a week currently and play in a local band).
All of the advice is great, I will work on getting a recommendation from a friend. I know someone at Google as well as Microsoft. Any other advice is much appreciated!

 

[seanbrown5]

Oh, and by the way, if any of you are curious why I haven't explored a programming position at my current place of employment... I have. I was offered a position a month ago as a developer, but they were offering it to me with the caveot that it would be a lateral move and I would keep my current hourly pay. The amount I make right now is NOT on par with the current wages of an entry level programmer. As a graduate, I feel that I deserve at least some compensation for the time and energy (and money) that I have put in for this degree.

 

[Markbnj]

Oh, and by the way, if any of you are curious why I haven't explored a programming position at my current place of employment... I have. I was offered a position a month ago as a developer, but they were offering it to me with the caveot that it would be a lateral move and I would keep my current hourly pay. The amount I make right now is NOT on par with the current wages of an entry level programmer. As a graduate, I feel that I deserve at least some compensation for the time and energy (and money) that I have put in for this degree.

Well, you deserve entry level pay for an entry level job... but there really aren't that many truly entry level programming jobs. You might have to accept less than you think you deserve to get some actual experience on your resume. I'm sorry to say, but from my perspective the "time and energy" that you put in for your degree isn't worth very much. As an employer the only thing that would have value to me is your ability to get the job done, starting day one.

 

[beginner99]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. The difficult part for me personally is that I have worked at a large wholesale company for almost 12 years now, and I am currently working in IT at their corporate office (I offer 2nd level support for all network connected hardware devices in the company). I am making decent money now and have great benefits/vacation. Taking a step back right now is an option but not a very appealing one. I own a home and have many other expenses that would probably not be possible with a junior/entry level programming position at a smaller company. Thus, the reason for applying at the "big 5", being Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Boeing and Apple.
I guess "padding" was not the word I was looking for. It makes sense that sorting resumes would be based more upon the GPA and school than anything, which is what I suspected. I can talk about projects I've done in school all day long in an interview, so that is not a problem. The problem for me is that I haven't really found a project that I am willing to spend my spare time on (of which I have very little - I work about 60 hours a week currently and play in a local band).
All of the advice is great, I will work on getting a recommendation from a friend. I know someone at Google as well as Microsoft. Any other advice is much appreciated!

Oh, and by the way, if any of you are curious why I haven't explored a programming position at my current place of employment... I have. I was offered a position a month ago as a developer, but they were offering it to me with the caveot that it would be a lateral move and I would keep my current hourly pay. The amount I make right now is NOT on par with the current wages of an entry level programmer. As a graduate, I feel that I deserve at least some compensation for the time and energy (and money) that I have put in for this degree.

Now I'm confused. First you say you can't take an entry level position because you would earn less and your current employer offers you such a position for them same amount, meaning you could keep you current living standards and get experience?

That sounds like exactly what I warned you off. Having pride about what salary to expect, you can do that with a proven track record but not straight from college.

Also note that CS (and in general natural sciences) are the wrong thing to study if your goal is to earn a lot of money. Any one with law school or business degree will on average make more money than a CS person regardless if his job is easier and he is dumber. So don't even compare to any possible friends with such degrees else you will never find a job. It sucks.

 

[seanbrown5]

Now I'm confused. First you say you can't take an entry level position because you would earn less and your current employer offers you such a position for them same amount, meaning you could keep you current living standards and get experience?

I was referring to the fact that many smaller companies that offer programming positions may not pay as much as I am making now. My current company offered me a position with the same pay, but the area of development wasn't really what I want to do as a career. Also, I wanted to explore my other options, as I'm very weary of making a bad move when it comes to my career.

That sounds like exactly what I warned you off. Having pride about what salary to expect, you can do that with a proven track record but not straight from college.

I don't have any pride in my salary, but when I see my fellow graduates getting jobs at Microsoft starting at a much higher salary, I wonder if it would be the wisest decision to start a new job at my current company making approx. $30k less per year.

Also note that CS (and in general natural sciences) are the wrong thing to study if your goal is to earn a lot of money. Any one with law school or business degree will on average make more money than a CS person regardless if his job is easier and he is dumber. So don't even compare to any possible friends with such degrees else you will never find a job. It sucks.

It really depends on your definition of "a lot of money". A friend of mine is studying law at ISU and he will obviously be making a lot more money than I will when he graduates. I would much rather be doing something I have a passion for and enjoy than make a bit more money.

 

[patrick409]

I was referring to the fact that many smaller companies that offer programming positions may not pay as much as I am making now. My current company offered me a position with the same pay, but the area of development wasn't really what I want to do as a career. Also, I wanted to explore my other options, as I'm very weary of making a bad move when it comes to my career.

I don't have any pride in my salary, but when I see my fellow graduates getting jobs at Microsoft starting at a much higher salary, I wonder if it would be the wisest decision to start a new job at my current company making approx. $30k less per year.

The entry level salaries at mid/smaller size companies may be more competitive than you think. Apply for jobs with them and find out. At worst you're getting some interview experience. You will also get a much better feel for the market prices in general. Not everyone can(or wants) to work for msft/goog etc..

How did your fellow graduates get their jobs at Microsoft? Your resume and grades are probably about as strong, so what did they do differently?

 

[seanbrown5]

The entry level salaries at mid/smaller size companies may be more competitive than you think. Apply for jobs with them and find out. At worst you're getting some interview experience. You will also get a much better feel for the market prices in general. Not everyone can(or wants) to work for msft/goog etc..?

This might be true... I just hate wasting peoples' time. I have a couple of friends from school that did get jobs in smaller companies, and the place they really take a hit is benefits. I currently have full medical/dental/vision and four weeks of vacation/one week of sick. I'd hate for them to offer me the job and then have to reject them because they aren't competitive with my current job.

How did your fellow graduates get their jobs at Microsoft? Your resume and grades are probably about as strong, so what did they do differently?

They graduated a quarter earlier than I did and were able to get face-time with a recruiter at a job fair at the university. The same job fair is coming up in May so I will likely attend that if I haven't already found a job.

 

[patrick409]

This might be true... I just hate wasting peoples' time. I have a couple of friends from school that did get jobs in smaller companies, and the place they really take a hit is benefits. I currently have full medical/dental/vision and four weeks of vacation/one week of sick. I'd hate for them to offer me the job and then have to reject them because they aren't competitive with my current job.

I wouldn't worry about wasting peoples time. Most companies with openings end up screening tons of candidates. It's just part of their job. The only person who loses is you if you don't put yourself out there.

As for benefits, most mid-large sized companies will have very similar packages. At your age you really only need insurance for unexpected catastrophic injuries and preventive checkups anyways. You might only get 3 weeks of vacation instead of 4, but the salary bump should more than make up for it. Once you have like 5 years of experience it's pretty standard to get an extra week of vacation.

 

[esun]

This might be true... I just hate wasting peoples' time. I have a couple of friends from school that did get jobs in smaller companies, and the place they really take a hit is benefits. I currently have full medical/dental/vision and four weeks of vacation/one week of sick. I'd hate for them to offer me the job and then have to reject them because they aren't competitive with my current job.

You don't have to wait for an offer to learn about benefits. You'll just need to land a first round interview, then ask your interviewer about the company's benefits (or ask for an HR contact if s/he doesn't have the information you want). Of course, a higher salary can compensate for lower benefits.

They graduated a quarter earlier than I did and were able to get face-time with a recruiter at a job fair at the university. The same job fair is coming up in May so I will likely attend that if I haven't already found a job.

Get them to refer you for an interview. They might get a referral bonus if you get hired, and you're basically guaranteed to get an interview if an employee vouches for your technical skills. Of course, they'll have to know you well enough to do so (e.g., if you took classes together and worked on projects together). Companies love to hire through referrals because the success rate is much higher than from random resumes.

 

[smackababy]

I'd talk to a few recruiters and let them see your resume. Most developers don't work at software companies. They work for companies that have in house software. A recruiter can set you up on interviews that fit your knowledge and skill level. Chances are you won't get those "dream" jobs where you can work whatever hours, wear shorts and flip flops, and bring your dog to work, but corporate environments aren't as bad as people want to believe.


Also, as a personal preference, I stay away form contract work especially as an independent contractor. Sure, the pay looks higher but their are usually no benefits and job security is pretty low. Even with contract to hire, you might only have 3-6 months of work before you're out looking for another job.

 

[veri745]

They graduated a quarter earlier than I did and were able to get face-time with a recruiter at a job fair at the university. The same job fair is coming up in May so I will likely attend that if I haven't already found a job.

Do this.

It's how I got my job. Career fairs are great because you can get lots of short interviews. Do well in the short interview and your chances improve drastically.

 

[TridenT]

How the heck did you graduate from UW in CS and not have a lot of experience? You should have had at least a couple summer internships under your belt! They basically give it out to UW CS students. It's a top 10 program? (Are you talking UW-Madison? That's different...)

Anyway, that's not helpful advice. I just suggest going to UW's career/counseling center. Or more specifically, talking to the CS advisers. There are A LOT of CS career opportunities at the job fairs they do there too.

EDIT: HuskyJobs is also very helpful. (You are talking UW-Seattle, yes? It's not very clear.)

No cursing in the technical forums, please
Markbnj
Programming mod

 

[douglasb]

I work as a software developer, as I'm sure is the case with most who have replied here.

This is mind-boggling to me that you can't find an "acceptable" job with a CS degree. You could already have 3 months of experience doing development at your current employer. I understand that it's not an area of software development that you want to focus your career on, but nobody said you had to stay there forever. Use it as a stepping stone. You're much more likely to work at an entry-level position, then get a better gig in a year or so, than you are to wait for that better gig and turn down everything else until you find it. It may never happen; then, you've just wasted a bunch of time turning down jobs when you could have been working.

In my experience, having a good GPA and coming from a good program is important to most employers, but not as important as having experience. Most software development companies, at least in my area, tend to get greedy and take on more projects than they can reasonably accommodate. This means that they need employees ASAP, and preferably employees that require minimal training. Things like previous experience, working in a team environment, etc. tend to take a higher priority than having an ultra-high GPA. This is why your colleagues are telling you that you need experience. And they're right.

Like Mark said, it's a catch-22. You need a job (preferably a great one) to get experience, but you need experience to get a job. But you have to start somewhere, and most likely, that means you will have to take a job somewhere and start accumulating experience. Don't expect a utopian first job; it isn't likely to happen, and you're cheating yourself out of valuable experience while you're looking for that "perfect" job. Odds are, you will move around quite a bit in this field before you settle in and find a job that you want to keep for the rest of your career. There is almost zero chance that your first job will be such a job.

My advice to you is to do anything besides what you've been doing. You want a career as a developer, so you turn down a developer position to keep working tech support? Makes no sense to me. You'd be making the same amount of money, and at least you'd be getting more relevant experience than what you're doing now.

 

[aceO07]

This might be true... I just hate wasting peoples' time. I have a couple of friends from school that did get jobs in smaller companies, and the place they really take a hit is benefits. I currently have full medical/dental/vision and four weeks of vacation/one week of sick. I'd hate for them to offer me the job and then have to reject them because they aren't competitive with my current job.

Be prepared to take a hit on the benefits and time off if you're going to be entry level. Just because you have earned those extras through your current job doesn't mean you'll retain them when you change careers.

I recently changed jobs, and took a decrease in vacations days. However, I did get a big salary increase and my commute got shorter.

Make sure to keep your skills sharp by doing a side project (individually or group). It may help as something to talk during the interviews.

 

[debian0001]

Pick up another internship, that's how I got my job now... I was 24 and a graduate and a intern. It sucked but worth it in the long run.

 

[fyb3r]

I have 2 years college with no degree yet, but ive been in the industry 4 years (currently im 24) and Im a sys admin with full certs and I do side work as a programmer.


Honestly its all about work experience. A company wont want you unless youve been in the real world, because honestly schooling is great but there is a huge difference between the classroom and the real world.

And honestly all I can say is good luck to you. It took me working minimum wage after pulling a string with a company to hire me as a "trainee" type position, after a year they hired me full time in the home repair department and I began dabbling into Networks and Scripting / Software programming where I could from there. Now I work at my current job .


Its going to take getting your foot in the door somewhere at a job well below your skills and clawing your way up, because technicians are a dime a dozen, but the ones with true skill are hard to find. It just takes a company going through 20 people to get 1 they wish to keep.