Recommendations for a cheap video card

[WeiDragon]

I'm looking for a cheap video card between $50-100, but I'm willing to spend over $100. The main reason for this upgrade is to play a game (see below).

Current system specs:
- AMD Athlon 2400+ XP
- MSI K7N2 motherboard (http://www.msicomputer.com/pro...model=K7N2_Delta2-LSR)
- Radeon 9700
- 1 GB memory
- AGP x8 and PCI 1.0 (no PCI 2.0)
- 350 watt power supply
- Windows XP SP 3

I would like to be able to play the game Demigod. The (pertinent) system req's and recommendations are (http://www.demigodthegame.com/faq/):
* 2.4 GHz Processor
* 128 MB 3D Video Card (ATI Radeon X1600 / Nvidia GeForce 6800 or better)

* 3 GHz Processor (Multicore Supported)
* 256 MB 3D Video Card (ATI Radeon 2600 / Nvidia GeForce 7600 or better)


Here are some of my questions/concerns:
- I read the other thread on upgrading an old system and somewhere it was said that PCI 2.0 is backwards compatible, but I would still get better performance with a AGP card, right?
- Would an upgraded video card potentially cause power problems (suspect issues in the past with not enough power going to the CPU)
- On a side note, what are the odds my CPU can handle the game? I know my CPU is incredibly old, but I don't use this box for much besides internet/video, word processing, Warcraft 3, and possibly Demigod. So an upgraded system is out of the question (it's pretty much either upgrade the video card and run Demigod vs. no Demigod and squeeze out the last bit in this PC till it dies)

I've been looking at the Radeon 3650 or 3850, but I'd really appreciate any recommendations and expertise I can get. Thanks a lot!

 

[cbn]

At this point 260 GTX/4870 doesn't really stress a PCI-E 1.x slot so anything that speed or slower won't be at a substantial disadvantage.

Modern dual GPU cards like HD4850x2 will though (actually at least two reviews show PCI-E 1.x bottlenecking this card)

 

[happy medium]

You dont have pci-e so you need a agp card.

Get yourself a used 7600gt or 6800gt anything more I believe your power supply wont handle and your cpu wont push fast enough.

try ebay or the for sale /trade forums.

 

[cbn]

My mistake.....your mobo has AGP x8.

In addition to what happy medium said you can also look into 3870 and 3850 as far as ATI products go. Both those cards come in AGPx8.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Just pick up the AGP HD 3650. It should be all that you need with that processor and doesn't use much power.

And you have a little bit of a misunderstanding. The debate on newer machines is between PCI-Express 1.0 vs. PCI-Express 2.0. These are new expansion interfaces for video cards, providing more bandwidth than AGP, and your motherboard doesn't support either one.

 

[happy medium]

His power supply wont handle a 3850 nor will his cpu. And there is no 3870 agp cards that I know of?

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: happy medium
His power supply wont handle a 3850 nor will his cpu. And there is no 3870 agp cards that I know of?

He might be in the clear.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/...on-3850--3870-review/8
"Videocard -- System Under load
8800 Ultra - 371 Watt
HD 2900 XT - 391 Watt
HD 3870 - 286 Watt
HD 3850 - 246 Watt

That chart actually does sound plausible. My system is E6600 with 8800GTX and it usually pulls about 350W at full load. The test guys had a marginally more powerful CPU and video card and they claim 371W. I have faith that their 246W Radeon 3850 is for real.

I don't know why the article says you should have 28A on the 12V rail. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that equal 336W on the 12V rail alone? They're recommending that your 12V rail be able to support more power than the entire computer consumes at peak load. What the hell.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Most of the power comes from the 12V rail, and it's never a good idea to have just enough such that the system is maxing out the 12V rail. Their recommendation seems pretty fair to me. If I were to match a power supply to a system, I'd estimate how much peak power it would draw from the 12V rail and make sure that number is 80% (or below) of what the PSU can deliver on the rail.

Also a good 350W PSU will have about 27A on the +12V rail; at least my 350W Enermax (which is about 4 years old) offers 27A on the 12V rail. So the HD3850 would just be cutting it, IMO. The HD 3650 would be the way to go anyway. It uses less power, and anything faster will just be bottlenecked big time by the processor.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Most of the power comes from the 12V rail

All disk drives are on the 5V, CPU is on the 3.3V. Isn't video card basically the only thing on the 12V?

 

[WeiDragon]

Thanks for all the responses. They've been real helpful.

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Also a good 350W PSU will have about 27A on the +12V rail; at least my 350W Enermax (which is about 4 years old) offers 27A on the 12V rail. So the HD3850 would just be cutting it, IMO. The HD 3650 would be the way to go anyway. It uses less power, and anything faster will just be bottlenecked big time by the processor.

I've come around to the fact that I need a better power supply as well; I'll get one so that won't be a factor. Would you still recommend a 3650 over a 3850 because of my slow CPU? Thanks again.

Edit: 3650 requires 1 4 pin connector while the 3850 requires 2? I'm looking at the OCZ 600W PSU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/...0&Tpk=OCZ%20OCZ600SXS) and I just want to check that it has enough connectors.

 

[bluemax]

No offense, but you'll still be hampered by barely-passable CPU and very low RAM.

May I instead suggest a new motherboard with onboard Radeon 3200 IGP (about equal to your current 9700Pro for "free") an affordable AMD dual-core processor and 4GB of cleap DDR2-800 RAM. In fact, that'll be well under your $200 limit and you can squirrel away some extra cash, sell your SocketA combo and add a little more, then get a fancy video card later.

Upgrading your machine with expensive DDR1, AGP cards and non-existent SocketA CPUs is just wasteful when modern stuff will cost LESS and give you more performance at the same time!

Heck, you might be able to get a Radeon 4650 card in your combo deal for just over $200 and it'll still wipe the floor with your old 9700!

Edit: OOPS! I saw $200 not $100.
I still think the mobo with good IGP, processor and RAM would be a better bet than sinking much cash into your old beast.

 

[WeiDragon]

Originally posted by: bluemax
No offense, but you'll still be hampered by barely-passable CPU and very low RAM.

May I instead suggest a new motherboard with onboard Radeon 3200 IGP (about equal to your current 9700Pro for "free") an affordable AMD dual-core processor and 4GB of cleap DDR2-800 RAM. In fact, that'll be well under your $200 limit and you can squirrel away some extra cash, sell your SocketA combo and add a little more, then get a fancy video card later.

Upgrading your machine with expensive DDR1, AGP cards and non-existent SocketA CPUs is just wasteful when modern stuff will cost LESS and give you more performance at the same time!

Heck, you might be able to get a Radeon 4650 card in your combo deal for just over $200 and it'll still wipe the floor with your old 9700!

Edit: OOPS! I saw $200 not $100.
I still think the mobo with good IGP, processor and RAM would be a better bet than sinking much cash into your old beast.

Thanks for the advice. Would you mind making any recommendations? I found a nice looking mobo-gpu combo on newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com/Product/...ItemList=Combo.182271)) but I've been removed from computer hardware for awhile and I don't really know what qualifies as a good CPU or motherboard. (fixed link)

 

[DaveSimmons]

Ignore the PCI-E suggestions unless you get the new motherboard / CPU / RAM -- you have the original PCI slots not PCI-E.

 

[bluemax]

That combo you mentioned is of a mobo + video card. What you need it the mobo, cpu and RAM. 780G chipset, 2x2GB, best AM2/AM2+ processor you can afford. That's about $120 or so there... maybe $150 tops.

I saw no combo deals for that one today. Just look for the individual parts that are pretty cheap.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: WeiDragon

Originally posted by: bluemax
No offense, but you'll still be hampered by barely-passable CPU and very low RAM.

May I instead suggest a new motherboard with onboard Radeon 3200 IGP (about equal to your current 9700Pro for "free") an affordable AMD dual-core processor and 4GB of cleap DDR2-800 RAM. In fact, that'll be well under your $200 limit and you can squirrel away some extra cash, sell your SocketA combo and add a little more, then get a fancy video card later.

Upgrading your machine with expensive DDR1, AGP cards and non-existent SocketA CPUs is just wasteful when modern stuff will cost LESS and give you more performance at the same time!

Heck, you might be able to get a Radeon 4650 card in your combo deal for just over $200 and it'll still wipe the floor with your old 9700!

Edit: OOPS! I saw $200 not $100.
I still think the mobo with good IGP, processor and RAM would be a better bet than sinking much cash into your old beast.

Thanks for the advice. Would you mind making any recommendations? I found a nice looking mobo-gpu combo on newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com/Product/...ItemList=Combo.182271)) but I've been removed from computer hardware for awhile and I don't really know what qualifies as a good CPU or motherboard. (fixed link)

This motherboard AM2/Am2+/AM3 supports the new Phenom II cpu''s for future upgrades also. The Phenom 9600 processor will be as fast as any Athlon x2 and is good enough to push a high end video card.
LINK TO COMBO 165.00$

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...?ItemList=Combo.182229

4 gigs of good ram for 57.00$

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231166

A respectable 4830 video card for 85.00$ shipped. (This card will max your game out easily).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814102822

This Corsair power supply will power most high end video cards with a 33 amp 12v+ rail for 75.00$ shipped.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817139003

Thats 372.00$ for a upgradable semi future proof system. Some of them parts have rebates too but I personally don't count that.

Good luck.

The intel route is a little cheaper.

 

[WeiDragon]

Thanks happy medium for the response; the system you laid out sure is tempting, but I'm not a big gamer and I'd like to spend as little money as possible.

Originally posted by: bluemax
That combo you mentioned is of a mobo + video card. What you need it the mobo, cpu and RAM. 780G chipset, 2x2GB, best AM2/AM2+ processor you can afford. That's about $120 or so there... maybe $150 tops.

I saw no combo deals for that one today. Just look for the individual parts that are pretty cheap.

Thanks for the help. I'm looking at the route you suggested vs. the Radeon 3650; here's what I'm looking at:
780g mobo for $60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...?Item=N82E16813157139R
AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz for $60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819103300
Corsair 4 GB of RAM for $25 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...&qid=1240457959&sr=8-1

That puts my total at about $150 (although I have a $50 gift card for Amazon). What do you think? I have some potential concerns/questions:
- Will the Radeon 3200 run the game ok? I'm fine with lower res, as long it looks and runs smoothly
- Would I need to upgrade my PSU? It's actually 300w and not 350w, but I read that the 780g motherboards use very little power.

Thanks!

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: WeiDragon
Thanks happy medium for the response; the system you laid out sure is tempting, but I'm not a big gamer and I'd like to spend as little money as possible.

Originally posted by: bluemax
That combo you mentioned is of a mobo + video card. What you need it the mobo, cpu and RAM. 780G chipset, 2x2GB, best AM2/AM2+ processor you can afford. That's about $120 or so there... maybe $150 tops.

I saw no combo deals for that one today. Just look for the individual parts that are pretty cheap.

Thanks for the help. I'm looking at the route you suggested vs. the Radeon 3650; here's what I'm looking at:
780g mobo for $60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...?Item=N82E16813157139R
AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz for $60 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819103300
Corsair 4 GB of RAM for $25 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...&qid=1240457959&sr=8-1

That puts my total at about $150 (although I have a $50 gift card for Amazon). What do you think? I have some potential concerns/questions:
- Will the Radeon 3200 run the game ok? I'm fine with lower res, as long it looks and runs smoothly
- Would I need to upgrade my PSU? It's actually 300w and not 350w, but I read that the 780g motherboards use very little power.

Thanks!

You still need a videocard integrated graphics suck.
Even a low end 50$ 4650 or a 9500gt might run on your 300 watt psu and be 3 times better then integrated graphics.

Edit: You might be just better off getting a 70$ 3650 to play that game now and upgrading when you get some more money together.You won't need a power supply either.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

The HD3200 is not better than your current 9700Pro. It... sucks for gaming. Your Athlon XP + HD3650 would be a better gaming machine than an Athlon X2/Phenom + HD3200. But with the latter you would have a better upgrade path.

If you get a new board, processor, and RAM, you will want to get a new video card as well. Integrated graphics just won't cut it. Well, it could cut it but you really wouldn't be doing an upgrade for gaming performance if you don't upgrade the video card to a discrete one.

You also asked me a question earlier - "I've come around to the fact that I need a better power supply as well; I'll get one so that won't be a factor. Would you still recommend a 3650 over a 3850 because of my slow CPU? Thanks again" - and my answer is no, the HD3850 is not worth it. You would be too bottlenecked by your processor. The HD3650 is about the fastest card you can pair with that processor. Note: While there are lower performing cards that would work just as well, the HD3650 is more readily available and at a decent price.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
Most of the power comes from the 12V rail

All disk drives are on the 5V, CPU is on the 3.3V. Isn't video card basically the only thing on the 12V?

Disk drives use both 5V and 12V. CPUs, definitely modern ones and I know my Athlon XP does, use the 12V rail. 3.3V is for the RAM. So the 12V rail is very important since it provides power to the two most power-hungry chips: GPU and CPU.

 

[bluemax]

You're forgetting how large a factor the processor can play! I have a pair of Dell C521's (well, one *just* sold) and the difference between the Sempron 3200+ (about equal or better than the OP's processor) and the other had a 4850e (2.5GHz) and now a 2.7GHz 5200+ With everything else absolutely identical, IGP, everything - the machine with the much faster processor did EVERYTHING better, INCLUDING the games that were being hampered more by a slow CPU than video.

I still think that the 780G + speedy dual-core processor and more RAM would have a better experience in the long run (even w/ low-end games) over an expensive upgrade for a low-end machine like his. The faster processor will make up the difference of the somewhat slower video solution coming free onboard.

You might even be able to snag a used Radeon 3450 for almost nothing and use it to get even more speed for free with the hybrid crossfire.

 

[WeiDragon]

Well after some more research, I'm leaning toward the 780g route. I feel that it'd be more worthwhile to upgrade my box for a bit more $, as opposed to spending $70 (or more if I get a psu) that has a limited return on investment since both my system and AGP cards are behind the times. With the 780g I can use this computer for several more years and potentially upgrade the gpu now or later. Another factor is the price of superior PCI 2.0 cards to the 3650. I found a 4670 for $50 (after mail-in rebate), which is about $20 cheaper than the 3650. It just seems to make more sense to potentially purchase the 4670 + mobo/cpu/RAM because I'm getting a significantly faster card...for less. That does put my total at a higher price though, so I'm looking at a $20 Radeon 3450 and hybrid crossfire as an option. I looked at tests and the hybrid crossfire seemed to do all right on medium settings (which I'm okay with playing at) for much more system intensive games than Demigod.

Even a low end 50$ 4650 or a 9500gt might run on your 300 watt psu and be 3 times better then integrated graphics.

What do you think are the chances that the 4650/4670 and 3450 (using hybrid crossfire) would need a stronger psu? I am definitely worried about the 300 watt psu causing problems, and if the $20 Radeon 3450 wouldn't need an upgraded psu, then I'd lean heavily in that direction.

 

[bluemax]

My Dell c521 has a lousy 280W PSU and it's powering a 65W processor and Radeon 4650 juuuust fine!

Don't bother buying the 3450 new unless you catch a sale where it's almost free.

I totally understand not having a lot of cash to spare! I'm all about making the most system for the least cash! AMD's got that market sealed tight.

$150 for board, cpu and RAM is pretty good. Your old 32-bit Windows won't see all 4GB but it'll be being addressed to video memory anyways, so you won't even miss it! (I hate having 4GB in my box and only seeing 3-3.25GB of it! It feels wasteful. Assign 512MB to video and you'll be using it instead!)

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: WeiDragon
Well after some more research, I'm leaning toward the 780g route. I feel that it'd be more worthwhile to upgrade my box for a bit more $, as opposed to spending $70 (or more if I get a psu) that has a limited return on investment since both my system and AGP cards are behind the times. With the 780g I can use this computer for several more years and potentially upgrade the gpu now or later. Another factor is the price of superior PCI 2.0 cards to the 3650. I found a 4670 for $50 (after mail-in rebate), which is about $20 cheaper than the 3650. It just seems to make more sense to potentially purchase the 4670 + mobo/cpu/RAM because I'm getting a significantly faster card...for less. That does put my total at a higher price though, so I'm looking at a $20 Radeon 3450 and hybrid crossfire as an option. I looked at tests and the hybrid crossfire seemed to do all right on medium settings (which I'm okay with playing at) for much more system intensive games than Demigod.

Even a low end 50$ 4650 or a 9500gt might run on your 300 watt psu and be 3 times better then integrated graphics.

What do you think are the chances that the 4650/4670 and 3450 (using hybrid crossfire) would need a stronger psu? I am definitely worried about the 300 watt psu causing problems, and if the $20 Radeon 3450 wouldn't need an upgraded psu, then I'd lean heavily in that direction.

I thought you said your PSU was 350W. In reality, we need to know the EXACT model of your PSU to know for sure. It would not hurt a thing to upgrade it since it's probably as old as the rest of the machine, isn't it? But like I said earlier, I have a 350W Enermax PSU that's 5+ years old and it's still going strong. I have no doubt my 350W Enermax could handle an Athlon X2 + HD4670 video card no sweat.

Ideally, upgrading your platform would be wiser in the long run. Just don't expect there to be an improvement in gaming performance if you don't upgrade the GPU as well.

Originally posted by: bluemax
You're forgetting how large a factor the processor can play! I have a pair of Dell C521's (well, one *just* sold) and the difference between the Sempron 3200+ (about equal or better than the OP's processor) and the other had a 4850e (2.5GHz) and now a 2.7GHz 5200+ With everything else absolutely identical, IGP, everything - the machine with the much faster processor did EVERYTHING better, INCLUDING the games that were being hampered more by a slow CPU than video.

I still think that the 780G + speedy dual-core processor and more RAM would have a better experience in the long run (even w/ low-end games) over an expensive upgrade for a low-end machine like his. The faster processor will make up the difference of the somewhat slower video solution coming free onboard.

You might even be able to snag a used Radeon 3450 for almost nothing and use it to get even more speed for free with the hybrid crossfire.

Well of course you'll see improvements if you keep other things identical, but bottlenecks are exactly exclusive to the GPU or CPU.

I'm not forgetting about the processor, as I have clearly stated otherwise. I am speaking for experience. I have two machines:
1. Athlon XP 2400+ with a Radeon X800GT (about equal to the 6600GT, a bit faster than a 9700 Pro)
2. Athlon X2 @ 3.1 GHz w/780g aka HD3200 graphics.

I have run tests on both machines, and my Athlon XP machine definitely plays (more demanding) games better. On the 780G machine I had to lower the resolution to 1024x768 on games to even make them playable (I experienced microstuttering), while the X800GT can handle 1280x1024 no sweat. I also feel like I have room for improvement as far as the GPU goes on even that older machine, and the HD3650 would be a boost in gaming performance especially in shader-heavy games.

I'm not saying upgrading an ancient platform is the best way to go. Obviously it's not. But I am saying that a faster processor paired with a Radeon HD3200 integrated GPU will not provide any better gaming experience than what he currently has. It can come "close", but the slow memory access for the integrated graphics hurts it and makes gaming limited to low resolutions, and even then it can struggle.

But maybe over the next day or so I'll make a chart with benchmarks for a few games. Although I'm afraid to even fire up Crysis on the HD3200.

 

[bluemax]

Good point. I don't think I ever said it would be better... it would be similar. However, all the OTHER day-to-day tasks would be much, much faster & better. That would buy time until you could afford a GPU to go with it, then the whole thing would be smokin'! (well... in comparison!)

 

[Forumpanda]

Just want to add a quick note.

The best upgrade I have done lately have been getting a corsair PSU, its just high quality and dead silent even under load, you also get the PCI graphics connectors, new 24 pin board connector and sata drive connectors, so you really have a good chance of keeping that PSU even if you upgrade the entire system later.
I would even recommend going a bit higher than 450W, but that one is certainly still good if you don't plan on getting a crazy system ever.

I think its a really good idea to get a cheap AM2 system, 4GB RAM is great value.

And then you are all lined up for a good solid upgrade to a PhenomII CPU when they come down in price, maybe in 6-12 months. (you wont regret getting it if you do any CPU intensive tasks).

And of course when dx11 and Win7 comes out and you find a new game you want to play you should be really set to stick in a good video card. (assuming you don't cheap out on the PSU).

All in all, its like the perfect 'cheap and ok now - upgradeable to good if needed later' combo you got there.

 

[WeiDragon]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln
I thought you said your PSU was 350W. In reality, we need to know the EXACT model of your PSU to know for sure. It would not hurt a thing to upgrade it since it's probably as old as the rest of the machine, isn't it? But like I said earlier, I have a 350W Enermax PSU that's 5+ years old and it's still going strong. I have no doubt my 350W Enermax could handle an Athlon X2 + HD4670 video card no sweat.

Ideally, upgrading your platform would be wiser in the long run. Just don't expect there to be an improvement in gaming performance if you don't upgrade the GPU as well.

I have an Antec SL300S. Ideally, it'd be able to run handle a 4670 and I'd be spending about $150 total, but if not, we'll see. Thanks for the advice everyone.