Reducing blood pressure without meds?

[nanette1985]

I have severe health issues and they keep screwing up my medication coverage, and I'm tired of it - don't want to bounce back and forth on the meds.

Anyway - thoughts, suggestions?

Usual recommendations (and why I might have challenges) here:

lose weight love to but see my post here insulin and fat loss, not really overweight anyway
exercise had heart failure, must limit activity - must be careful not to get heart rate too high too fast
destress are they kidding?? you're gonna die, you can't work, your med coverage sucks, let's randomly screw up your meds, and oh, by the way - lower your stress levels !!
stop/lower salt, alcohol, caffeine, smoking (I don't) - okay, I can get fanatical about this (though alcohol & caffeine are great for stress )
supplements generally recommended potassium, magnesium, fish oil, garlic, vit D - any others? doc said don't take supplements, only meds, but I'm going to ignore that now
other supplements calcium, stevia, grapeseed oil, C-12, L-argenine, various B's

what am I missing? anyone have experience with this? Thanks.

P.S. I've had a fascinating, educational time searching this forum for blood pressure info, some great people here

 

[Chaotic42]

How high is it? I'm on benezapril (however you spell it) and it's only something like $25 without insurance. Mine was 175/130ish, so I had to go on it immediately.

 

[nanette1985]

At diagnosis (heart failure) was in the 250/150 range, with current meds I'm 120-130/70ish, even with current stress level

Metapropolol (Lopressor), amlodipine (Norvasc), furosemide (Lasix) and ramipril. The prils are ace inhibitors, supposedly vitamin D can also act as an ace inhibitor. It'll be interesting to test this out.

These are all in the 30-ish range each without insurance, if I shop around. It adds up - my diabetes meds/supplies are the ones high priority ones.

Just sounds like a good time to research/test some non-prescription options.

 

[eits]

personally, i'm in favor of juice plus with vineyard blend and a good fish oil supplement.

niacin is also great, too.

also, chiropractic adjusting can also reduce blood pressure.

 

[nanette1985]

personally, i'm in favor of juice plus with vineyard blend and a good fish oil supplement.

niacin is also great, too.

also, chiropractic adjusting can also reduce blood pressure.

can't have juice plus, I'm diabetic. sounds interesting though.

niacin - B3 - supposedly good for cholesterol, also good for BP?

can't afford chiro at the moment

 

[alkemyst]

Well first being a 'foodie' as you define yourself and being more than likely overweight are the two things working against you the most.

For many proper diet and exercise are all that's needed.

Outside of that there really isn't much that's going to control 'out of control' blood pressure. Aspirin has been a long tried and true method. As a blood thinner it comes with it's own risks.

 

[eits]

can't have juice plus, I'm diabetic. sounds interesting though.

niacin - B3 - supposedly good for cholesterol, also good for BP?

can't afford chiro at the moment

I'm unaware of juiceplus being contraindicated for diabetics.

Yup.

No insurance? Many chiropractors have payment plan options or take care credit.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

At diagnosis (heart failure) was in the 250/150 range, with current meds I'm 120-130/70ish, even with current stress level

Metapropolol (Lopressor), amlodipine (Norvasc), furosemide (Lasix) and ramipril. The prils are ace inhibitors, supposedly vitamin D can also act as an ace inhibitor. It'll be interesting to test this out.

These are all in the 30-ish range each without insurance, if I shop around. It adds up - my diabetes meds/supplies are the ones high priority ones.

Just sounds like a good time to research/test some non-prescription options.

Sadly, I think the hypertension should be your biggest worry. I've read several research studies (and I'll see if I can find them) that state individuals with stage II hypertension (above either 160 systolic or 100 diastolic) have a very low 5-year survival rate. It's definitely something that you should get monitored regularly. I know it's hard to think about, but that is definitely something you have to keep in mind when regulating your BP.

 

[Cstefan]

Generic Lisinopril-Hydrochlorothiazide. When I was without insurance, this kept me from having a stroke I am sure. It's $4 at walmart, $10 for 90 days.

Here is their list should you wish to take a look
http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/genericdruglist.pdf

 

[Sust]

At diagnosis (heart failure) was in the 250/150 range, with current meds I'm 120-130/70ish, even with current stress level

Metapropolol (Lopressor), amlodipine (Norvasc), furosemide (Lasix) and ramipril. The prils are ace inhibitors, supposedly vitamin D can also act as an ace inhibitor. It'll be interesting to test this out.

These are all in the 30-ish range each without insurance, if I shop around. It adds up - my diabetes meds/supplies are the ones high priority ones.

Just sounds like a good time to research/test some non-prescription options.

I'm no cardiologist nor do I know anything else about your clinical baseline, but I would strongly advise against abruptly veering off of the course your doctors have steered you into. If you truly have congestive heart failure, hypertension, and diabetes(which is a dangerous combination itself) then going off of your medications could have dire consequences.
I think it's admirable that you want to become healthy enough to not have to take medications and more people should think this way, but tapering off medications is something that should be planned in consultancy with your doctors so that you do so in a safe manner that's not going to land you in a hospital or ICU.
If cost of medications is a problem then consider going to walmart for your medications and ask your doctors to only write for medications off of the walmart 10 dollar list.
For most people with your combination of medical comorbidities, weight loss through diet modification is the recommended first step after cutting out smokes/booze, but few ever cross these very difficult hurdles. Ideally alongside the diet modifications, moderate exercise regimens are also started, but the stress of changing around diet is traumatic enough for some people that you typically take things one step at a time. Changing around your medications (on the advice of internet strangers) with other supplements that havent been studied as well as your current medications for your medical problems should be an idea you discuss with your doctors much much farther down the line.

 

[DougoMan]

you can probably get everything you need at walmart for $4/month per drug..

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

At diagnosis (heart failure) was in the 250/150 range, with current meds I'm 120-130/70ish, even with current stress level

Metapropolol (Lopressor), amlodipine (Norvasc), furosemide (Lasix) and ramipril. The prils are ace inhibitors, supposedly vitamin D can also act as an ace inhibitor. It'll be interesting to test this out.

These are all in the 30-ish range each without insurance, if I shop around. It adds up - my diabetes meds/supplies are the ones high priority ones.

Just sounds like a good time to research/test some non-prescription options.

Unfortunately, there are no known lifestyle measures that could be taken to reduce your blood pressure from over 200 systolic to anything approaching normal. In fact, most lifestyle interventions have quite a mild effect on HTN; certainly nowhere near enough to get you back to the normal range. I'm afraid that as far as I know your only real option is to stay on the meds. Especially since you have heart failure, going off them will likely prove fatal in quite a short time

I'm unaware of juiceplus being contraindicated for diabetics.

Yup.

No insurance? Many chiropractors have payment plan options or take care credit.

It just makes things more difficult in terms of diabetes management. It's not really something you want to experiment with, at the best of times.

 

[highland145]

Mine is directly related to salt intake. I don't put salt on anything but any pre packaged food is loaded. As long as I sweat enough out, the ramipril 10mg keeps me at 110/70 or a little lower (sometimes causing light headed when I stand). If I don't, I'll hit 150/100 in less than 2 weeks.

Best of.

 

[nanette1985]

I'm no cardiologist nor do I know anything else about your clinical baseline, but I would strongly advise against abruptly veering off of the course your doctors have steered you into. If you truly have congestive heart failure, hypertension, and diabetes(which is a dangerous combination itself) then going off of your medications could have dire consequences.
I think it's admirable that you want to become healthy enough to not have to take medications and more people should think this way, but tapering off medications is something that should be planned in consultancy with your doctors so that you do so in a safe manner that's not going to land you in a hospital or ICU.

Thanks, you're right of course. What I'm really wondering is how much non-meds can do in my situation, and I'm hearing that it's not very much.

I'm much less pissed off now than I was when I first posted but I have actually lost all of my medical coverage including meds due to a paperwork glitch. Seriously. I found this out when I went to refill my prescriptions. It'll take time to work out - but it will get worked out. The docs I see at my clinic will not write prescriptions or talk to me about how to manage without meds until my coverage is back. I'm searching furiously for alternatives of course!

For most people with your combination of medical comorbidities, weight loss through diet modification is the recommended first step after cutting out smokes/booze, but few ever cross these very difficult hurdles. Ideally alongside the diet modifications, moderate exercise regimens are also started, but the stress of changing around diet is traumatic enough for some people that you typically take things one step at a time. Changing around your medications (on the advice of internet strangers) with other supplements that havent been studied as well as your current medications for your medical problems should be an idea you discuss with your doctors much much farther down the line.

I'm 5'6", been 130ish for most of my adult life since I stopped dancing - gained 15 pounds on a tricyclic I was given for my rheumatoid arthritis (didn't help) and I've been trying to lose that for a while now, see my post on insulin and fat storage. I know people usually say this but in my case I think it's true - my weight isn't much of an issue here and if it is they why do MD's give meds that increase it?

Unfortunately, there are no known lifestyle measures that could be taken to reduce your blood pressure from over 200 systolic to anything approaching normal. In fact, most lifestyle interventions have quite a mild effect on HTN; certainly nowhere near enough to get you back to the normal range. I'm afraid that as far as I know your only real option is to stay on the meds. Especially since you have heart failure, going off them will likely prove fatal in quite a short time


It just makes things more difficult in terms of diabetes management. It's not really something you want to experiment with, at the best of times.

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.

Question: My blood pressure has been in the 130-150 range for years and years, it only went up that far and that fast when I got sick - docs had said sinuses, but it was a lung infection/congestion that supposedly triggered the heart failure that had been coming on because I had mostly-untreated diabetes ever since I had gestational diabetes 15 years ago and the doc treating it just said "eat this" and said the numbers were okay, no need to do anything else. ASSHOLE (pardon me).

Anyway - if I were to go off the BP meds would my BP likely go back to the level it was in the hospital, or would it go back to my more normal levels? Theoretical question only - I'm not going to go off meds to try it!

Mine is directly related to salt intake. I don't put salt on anything but any pre packaged food is loaded. As long as I sweat enough out, the ramipril 10mg keeps me at 110/70 or a little lower (sometimes causing light headed when I stand). If I don't, I'll hit 150/100 in less than 2 weeks.

Best of.

Thank you - I hear you. I find that the ramipril 5 mg twice a day helps with the lightheadedness. I'm on low carb for the diabetes and low carb PLUS low sodium (plus low income) is an interesting challenge.

 

[KeithP]

doc said don't take supplements, only meds...

As recommended by the pharmaceutical company that flew him/her to Tahiti for a week long seminar entitled, "Drugs are good, vitamins are bad." Maybe it is time to look for another doctor?

-KeithP

 

[Ghiedo27]

exercise had heart failure, must limit activity - must be careful not to get heart rate too high too fast

What about a more controlled effort like Yoga or Tai Chi? Just a little something in the morning to stretch and get the blood flowing along with deep breathing can be a great stress relief.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Question: My blood pressure has been in the 130-150 range for years and years, it only went up that far and that fast when I got sick - docs had said sinuses, but it was a lung infection/congestion that supposedly triggered the heart failure that had been coming on because I had mostly-untreated diabetes ever since I had gestational diabetes 15 years ago and the doc treating it just said "eat this" and said the numbers were okay, no need to do anything else. ASSHOLE (pardon me).

Anyway - if I were to go off the BP meds would my BP likely go back to the level it was in the hospital, or would it go back to my more normal levels? Theoretical question only - I'm not going to go off meds to try it!

I don't know for sure, sorry. It is likely the lung congestion caused some of the hypertension. But if it caused chronic damage to the lung, then the increase is likely to be permanent. In any case, having your blood pressure be normal while on the meds means that without them they would be very high; maybe not as high as just before you started, but still dangerously so.

supplements generally recommended potassium, magnesium, fish oil, garlic, vit D - any others? doc said don't take supplements, only meds, but I'm going to ignore that now

Supplements are far less well regulated than regular drugs. They don't have the same regulatory measures to take them off the market, and even if they did, they wouldn't have any use, because not very many people do good grade A randomized control trials against placebo anyway, so there's no data. Obviously some supplements are more harmless than others and some may even have some non-placebo effect, but you need to do your own research, and not rely on anecdotal evidence.

 

[eits]

As recommended by the pharmaceutical company that flew him/her to Tahiti for a week long seminar entitled, "Drugs are good, vitamins are bad." Maybe it is time to look for another doctor?

-KeithP

lol :thumbsup:

 

[Sust]

Thanks, you're right of course. What I'm really wondering is how much non-meds can do in my situation, and I'm hearing that it's not very much.

I'm much less pissed off now than I was when I first posted but I have actually lost all of my medical coverage including meds due to a paperwork glitch. Seriously. I found this out when I went to refill my prescriptions. It'll take time to work out - but it will get worked out. The docs I see at my clinic will not write prescriptions or talk to me about how to manage without meds until my coverage is back. I'm searching furiously for alternatives of course!

I'm 5'6", been 130ish for most of my adult life since I stopped dancing - gained 15 pounds on a tricyclic I was given for my rheumatoid arthritis (didn't help) and I've been trying to lose that for a while now, see my post on insulin and fat storage. I know people usually say this but in my case I think it's true - my weight isn't much of an issue here and if it is they why do MD's give meds that increase it?

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.

Question: My blood pressure has been in the 130-150 range for years and years, it only went up that far and that fast when I got sick - docs had said sinuses, but it was a lung infection/congestion that supposedly triggered the heart failure that had been coming on because I had mostly-untreated diabetes ever since I had gestational diabetes 15 years ago and the doc treating it just said "eat this" and said the numbers were okay, no need to do anything else. ASSHOLE (pardon me).

Anyway - if I were to go off the BP meds would my BP likely go back to the level it was in the hospital, or would it go back to my more normal levels? Theoretical question only - I'm not going to go off meds to try it!

Thank you - I hear you. I find that the ramipril 5 mg twice a day helps with the lightheadedness. I'm on low carb for the diabetes and low carb PLUS low sodium (plus low income) is an interesting challenge.

I'm sorry to hear that your medical coverage was lost in some insurance bureaucrat's trash can. That is not an uncommon occurrence unfortunately.

You'll find that everything you take in can have side effects. Although many doctors often dont remember to talk about them, medications will inevitably have side effects too, but there is supposed to be something beneficial that it provides you as well which should outweigh the risk of its possible side effects. Having said that, TCA's are old drugs with a well known spectrum of side effects which is why most practitioners outside of psychiatry have not used it that often. If weight gain was truly an issue due to the TCA(not merely correlated) then it probably would have been a good idea to give that kind of feedback to your doctor so that you could arrange for a suitable alternative or at least another plan to help deal with the weight gain.
Now it sounds like youve had problems with your doctors in the past. Again not knowing anything about what happened between you and your docs, it's pretty safe to say that not all doctors are created equal and you are totally entitled to ask your doctor for a copy of your medical records and try another physician that your insurance company approves of. If you are nearby a university with a medical school, you might consider going to one of their clinics as they usually have some kind of lower cost clinic where residents practice in a supervised setting. Alternatively, states often have government subsidized clinics where you can also receive medical care since not everyone in the US is fortunate enough to have insurance.

As other posters have already stated, (1)the likelihood of reducing your blood pressure with herbal supplements is low and possibly dangerous. (2)The likelihood of lowering your blood pressure without medications is extremely low if you are truly suffering from hypertension, but no one here has examined you and knows the etiology of your HTN so it would be difficult for anyone to give any intelligent advice in that regard.
There are athletes who are able to train themselves to the point where their blood pressures hover in absurd ranges like 60/40, but those are extreme examples of what exercise can do for blood pressure in people w/o comorbid cardiac conditions. Mere mortals fall somewhere in between there and I'm sure ATHF has its share of members who have lowered their BP ever since starting a cardiovascular endurance regimen.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

If weight gain was truly an issue due to the TCA(not merely correlated) then it probably would have been a good idea to give that kind of feedback to your doctor so that you could arrange for a suitable alternative or at least another plan to help deal with the weight gain.

This. Feedback is also good because some drug manufacturers collate data on side effects and interactions through physicians, in Phase IV clinical trials. This is the reason why old drugs are used more often and are more trustworthy than a new drug, even though newer drugs may be more beneficial in terms of effect and known side effect profile - they are also less predictable.

If you are nearby a university with a medical school, you might consider going to one of their clinics as they usually have some kind of lower cost clinic where residents practice in a supervised setting.

This is also good advice because the physicians that teach at medical schools are usually quite top notch with their level of medical knowledge and are confident with this as well. Since the primary physicians are also usually the ones that teach communication and examination skills, they are also usually the more friendly, outgoing, and empathetic ones.

There are athletes who are able to train themselves to the point where their blood pressures hover in absurd ranges like 60/40, but those are extreme examples of what exercise can do for blood pressure in people w/o comorbid cardiac conditions. Mere mortals fall somewhere in between there and I'm sure ATHF has its share of members who have lowered their BP ever since starting a cardiovascular endurance regimen.

I think you mean heart rate? Such a low blood pressure would only be appropriate for seriously short people, as it's right at the edge of where the body can go in terms of still keeping all the organs perfused, and it's only indicated for people with conditions where the lower the better, without reservation (e.g. aortic dissection aneurysm). For most people this is not a good place to be; standing up you will feel dizzy, and blackouts will constantly be around the corner.

 

[eits]

It just makes things more difficult in terms of diabetes management. It's not really something you want to experiment with, at the best of times.

i disagree. i'll try and dig up some information. i may be wrong, but it should be just fine. i think you might be thinking of juice plus as a kind of juice rather than whole food nutrition in capsules.

 

[nanette1985]

i disagree. i'll try and dig up some information. i may be wrong, but it should be just fine. i think you might be thinking of juice plus as a kind of juice rather than whole food nutrition in capsules.

It's all about testing. supplements can affect blood sugar as well as food. some of my buddies on the diabetes boards have triggered spikes from the stuff, that's why I don't want to try it at the moment.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

i disagree. i'll try and dig up some information. i may be wrong, but it should be just fine. i think you might be thinking of juice plus as a kind of juice rather than whole food nutrition in capsules.

Yeah, I did. My bad. That's what I get for being lazy, I guess...

But looking at the Wiki article, I can't really see anything that would make it special in terms of blood pressure management. The one independently funded study on the stuff puts it as being nutritionally equivalent to its equal weight of reconstituted vegetable; so 1g of capsule = 10g of vegetable/fruit. And since the daily dose is 1.5g according to wiki, you might as well just eat another salad and get the extra 15g that way.

 

[spamsk8r]

Since you're an insulin-dependent diabetic I would look into a strict grain-, legume-, and dairy-free Paleo diet. If you look around on Google you can find a *ton* of information about the positive health effects of a Paleo diet on all sorts of ailments, including diabetes (both type-I and type-II), hyperlipidemia, autoimmune diseases, Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. Give it a month and see if it helps. It can't hurt, and the amount of evidence in its favor is growing every day. Check out the Paleo Solution podcast as well for some great info.

 

[eits]

Yeah, I did. My bad. That's what I get for being lazy, I guess...

But looking at the Wiki article, I can't really see anything that would make it special in terms of blood pressure management. The one independently funded study on the stuff puts it as being nutritionally equivalent to its equal weight of reconstituted vegetable; so 1g of capsule = 10g of vegetable/fruit. And since the daily dose is 1.5g according to wiki, you might as well just eat another salad and get the extra 15g that way.

i was talking specifically about adding the vineyard blend (purples).