Reflections on the Revolution in France* - by Daniel Pipes

Braznor

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Reflections on the Revolution in France*

by Daniel Pipes

New York Sun

November 8, 2005

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The rioting by Muslim youth that began October 27 in France to calls of "Allahu Akbar" may be a turning point in European history.

What started in Clichy-sous-Bois, on the outskirts of Paris, by its 11th night had spread to 300 French cities and towns, as well as to Belgium and Germany. The violence, which has already been called some evocative names ? intifada, jihad, guerilla war, insurrection, rebellion, and civil war ? prompts several reflections.

End of an era: The time of cultural innocence and political naïveté, when the French could blunder without seeing or feeling the consequences, is drawing to a close. As in other European countries (notably Denmark and Spain), a bundle of related issues, all touching on the Muslim presence, has now moved to the top of the policy agenda in France, where it likely will remain for decades.

These issues include a decline of Christian faith and the attendant demographic collapse; a cradle-to-grave welfare system that lures immigrants even as it saps long-term economic viability; an alienation from historic customs in favor of lifestyle experimentation and vapid multiculturalism; an inability to control borders or assimilate immigrants; a pattern of criminality that finds European cities far more violent than American ones, and a surge in Islam and radical Islam.

Not a first: The French insurrection is by no means the first instance of a semi-organized Muslim insurgency in Europe ? it was preceded days earlier by one riot in Birmingham, England and was accompanied by another in Århus, Denmark. France itself has a history of Muslim violence going back to 1979. What is different in the current round is its duration, magnitude, planning, and ferocity.

Press denial: The French press delicately refers to the "urban violence" and presents the rioters as victims of the system. Mainstream media deny that it has to do with Islam and ignore the permeating Islamist ideology, with its vicious anti-French attitudes and its raw ambition to dominate the country and replace its civilization with Islam's.

Another method of jihad: Indigenous Muslims of northwestern Europe have in the past year deployed three distinct forms of jihad: the crude variety deployed in Britain, killing random passengers moving around London; the targeted variety in the Netherlands, where individual political and cultural leaders are singled out, threatened, and in some cases attacked; and now the more diffuse violence in France, less specifically murderous but also politically less dismissible. Which of these or other methods will prove most efficacious is yet unclear, but the British variant is clearly counterproductive, so the Dutch and French strategies probably will recur.

Sarkozy versus Villepin: Two leading French politicians and probable candidates for president in 2007, Nicolas Sarkozy and Dominique de Villepin, have responded to the riots in starkly contrasting ways, with the former adopting a hard line (proclaiming "tolérance zéro" for urban crime) and the latter a soft one (promising an "action plan" to improve urban conditions).

Anti-state: The riots started eight days after Mr. Sarkozy declared a new policy of "war without mercy" on urban violence and two days after he called violent youth "scum." Many rioters see themselves in a power struggle with the state and so focus their attacks on its symbols. A typical report quotes Mohamed, 20, the son of a Moroccan immigrant, asserting that "Sarko has declared war ?, so it's war he's going to get." Representatives of the rioters have demanded that the French police leave the "occupied territories"; in turn, Mr. Sarkozy partially blamed the riots on "fundamentalists."

The French can respond in three ways. They can feel guilty and appease the rioters with prerogatives and the "massive investment plan" some are demanding. Or they can heave a sigh of relief when it ends and, as they did after earlier crises, return to business as usual. Or they can understand this as the opening salvo in a would-be revolution and take the difficult steps to undo the negligence and indulgence of past decades.

I expect a blend of the first two reactions and that, despite Mr. Sarkozy's surge in the polls, Mr. Villepin's appeasing approach will prevail. France must await something larger and more awful to awake it from its somnolence. The long-term prognosis, however, is inescapable: "the sweet dream of universal cultural compatibility has been replaced," as Theodore Dalrymple puts it, "by the nightmare of permanent conflict."

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

But they do get some nice engines!

As for the original part, yeah, the unemployment and the elitist society really do make for a serious problem.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

Good. now try naming something relevant to the topic at hand.
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

Good. now try naming something relevant to the topic at hand.

Are those things I listed not differences directly attributed to the violence?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

Good. now try naming something relevant to the topic at hand.

Are those things I listed not differences directly attributed to the violence?

1. heavier government reliance is irrelvant and was just thrown there so you can stroke your idealogical ego.
2. You really think a parisian is any more arrogant than, say, a new yorker towards some slack-jawed yokel from the flyover? (funny term that, flyover...and not elitist in any way!)


unemployment? not exactly. Canada has seen these types of unemployment numbers, but they were never accompanied by social unrest.

If you were to say chronically VERY high unemployment amongs the immigrant populations which rioted, you'd be onto something. This (which is the cause of their poverty) and the alienation they feel from society is due the french interpretation of 'equality". In the US and Canada, though they both have the "everyone is equal" mantra, there are a huge number of programs for immigrants and minorities, which do not (according the supreme courts in both countries) violate this equality.
French equality on the other hand is "everyone is equal, period". they do not have any form of AA, as most french people find it offensive to their concept of equality. No quotas in schools, no special programs, nothing.
Of course, I have not seen this mentioned by a single republican over the last month..and little surprise... you idealogy doesn't leave room for realizing you share your hatred of AA with the EVAL french, nor that you hated AA actually works. This is why you are forced to come up with idiotic ****** like "government reliance".
 

replicator

Senior member
Oct 7, 2003
431
0
0
Daniel Pipes tried to blame the Oklahoma City bombing on muslims too when it happened. He has no credibility to speak even-handedly on any issue involving Muslims.

He also founded campus-watch.com, which used to post information on Professors that are critical of Israel and US, some of which received death threats.

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Originally posted by: replicator
Daniel Pipes tried to blame the Oklahoma City bombing on muslims too when it happened. He has no credibility to speak even-handedly on any issue involving Muslims.

He also founded campus-watch.com, which used to post information on Professors that are critical of Israel and US, some of which received death threats.

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html

What the hecK? You're discrediting Daniel Pipes by linking to Cair? That is one of the most laughable organizations ever. You didn't even try.

Daniel Pipes knows what he is talking about and should be listened to. You're trying to divert attention from the issues at hand.
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

Good. now try naming something relevant to the topic at hand.

Are those things I listed not differences directly attributed to the violence?

1. heavier government reliance is irrelvant and was just thrown there so you can stroke your idealogical ego.
2. You really think a parisian is any more arrogant than, say, a new yorker towards some slack-jawed yokel from the flyover? (funny term that, flyover...and not elitist in any way!)


unemployment? not exactly. Canada has seen these types of unemployment numbers, but they were never accompanied by social unrest.

If you were to say chronically VERY high unemployment amongs the immigrant populations which rioted, you'd be onto something. This (which is the cause of their poverty) and the alienation they feel from society is due the french interpretation of 'equality". In the US and Canada, though they both have the "everyone is equal" mantra, there are a huge number of programs for immigrants and minorities, which do not (according the supreme courts in both countries) violate this equality.
French equality on the other hand is "everyone is equal, period". they do not have any form of AA, as most french people find it offensive to their concept of equality. No quotas in schools, no special programs, nothing.
Of course, I have not seen this mentioned by a single republican over the last month..and little surprise... you idealogy doesn't leave room for realizing you share your hatred of AA with the EVAL french, nor that you hated AA actually works. This is why you are forced to come up with idiotic ****** like "government reliance".

Pointing out heavier socialism is very relevant considering these muslim youths seem to be wanting something more from the Government(although I don't know what burning a bunch of cars is going to get them besides a jail sentence).

Actually yes, even "full" Frenchmen are shunned if they are from immigrant lineage, atleast by the self professed "elite". I'm not sure that is something our system teaches.

You asked the question and I provided 3 things off the top of my head that were different. Unemployment is quite high among the rioters - that's what I posted because your post asked for "what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured" And I replied with 3 things.

Well, if you don't like those, then please enlighten us all.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: Martin
what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured, and canada and the US where immigrants do not do these things?

A high unemployment rate, elitist society structure, heavier government reliance just to name a few.

Maybe they don't like European cars too.

Good. now try naming something relevant to the topic at hand.

Are those things I listed not differences directly attributed to the violence?

1. heavier government reliance is irrelvant and was just thrown there so you can stroke your idealogical ego.
2. You really think a parisian is any more arrogant than, say, a new yorker towards some slack-jawed yokel from the flyover? (funny term that, flyover...and not elitist in any way!)


unemployment? not exactly. Canada has seen these types of unemployment numbers, but they were never accompanied by social unrest.

If you were to say chronically VERY high unemployment amongs the immigrant populations which rioted, you'd be onto something. This (which is the cause of their poverty) and the alienation they feel from society is due the french interpretation of 'equality". In the US and Canada, though they both have the "everyone is equal" mantra, there are a huge number of programs for immigrants and minorities, which do not (according the supreme courts in both countries) violate this equality.
French equality on the other hand is "everyone is equal, period". they do not have any form of AA, as most french people find it offensive to their concept of equality. No quotas in schools, no special programs, nothing.
Of course, I have not seen this mentioned by a single republican over the last month..and little surprise... you idealogy doesn't leave room for realizing you share your hatred of AA with the EVAL french, nor that you hated AA actually works. This is why you are forced to come up with idiotic ****** like "government reliance".


So you're saying its a problem of not enough liberal programs like affirmative action, and other people are saying its a problem of too many liberal programs, like socialism.

And "flyover" country? You're not even an American are you?

 

replicator

Senior member
Oct 7, 2003
431
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: replicator
Daniel Pipes tried to blame the Oklahoma City bombing on muslims too when it happened. He has no credibility to speak even-handedly on any issue involving Muslims.

He also founded campus-watch.com, which used to post information on Professors that are critical of Israel and US, some of which received death threats.

http://www.cair-net.org/misc/people/daniel_pipes.html

What the hecK? You're discrediting Daniel Pipes by linking to Cair? That is one of the most laughable organizations ever. You didn't even try.

Daniel Pipes knows what he is talking about and should be listened to. You're trying to divert attention from the issues at hand.

Are you sure he knows what he is talking about?

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/198

"All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most. Also, they appear most resistant to assimilation. Elements among the Pakistanis in Britain, Algerians in France, and Turks in Germany seek to turn the host country into an Islamic society by compelling it to adapt to their way of life."

http://baltimorechronicle.com/jul03_pipes-stalled.shtml

"[The] increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews." (American Jewish Congress Convention, 10/21/01).
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Pointing out heavier socialism is very relevant considering these muslim youths seem to be wanting something more from the Government(although I don't know what burning a bunch of cars is going to get them besides a jail sentence).

Actually yes, even "full" Frenchmen are shunned if they are from immigrant lineage, atleast by the self professed "elite". I'm not sure that is something our system teaches.

You asked the question and I provided 3 things off the top of my head that were different. Unemployment is quite high among the rioters - that's what I posted because your post asked for "what is the principal difference between france, where these unrests occured" And I replied with 3 things.

Well, if you don't like those, then please enlighten us all.

I already have. What the rioters want is what they don't have..AA. Though there certainly is islamic fundamentalism, the bulk of the anger seems to have come from the fact that muslims are largely ignored. Here they have out reach programs, scholarships for minorities, preferential treatment at workplaces etc. In france, they have nothing.

There are, of coruse, other causes, but this is cheif among them.


Originally posted by: Frackal
So you're saying its a problem of not enough liberal programs like affirmative action, and other people are saying its a problem of too many liberal programs, like socialism.

And "flyover" country? You're not even an American are you?

Yes, except other poeple say "socialism" becuase they hate it to begin with, and blame anything and everything on socialism, regardless of what the 'thing' actually is or whether socialism has anything to do with it.

And I wasn't aware one had to be an american to use the word. Could you perhaps provide me with a list of words that I am not allowed to use, and if possible, contact information at the agency responsible for this regulation. Perhaps there is a way I could license the right to use some of these prohibited english words...?
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: biostud
isn't this similar to the riot in L.A. after the Rodney King incident?

How? Was there a single incident that sparked the violence?


On 27 October two teenage boys, Zyed Benna and Bouna Traore, were killed when they climbed into an electricity sub-station in Paris and were electrocuted.

It's been reported that they were either being chased by police, or thought they were being chased, on that night. It has also been suggested they may have been trying to avoid an ID check.

The police say they weren't chasing the boys.
Link

But..

Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested; about 42% were African-American, 44% Hispanic, 9% white, and 2% other. These numbers are proportional to the number of residents in the areas of Los Angeles where the events occurred, although they are not proportional to the racial make-up of Los Angeles as a whole. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted, although stores owned by whites and blacks were also targeted. Despite the race riot image the event retains, much of the looting and violence was done by young men, black, Hispanic and white, and much of the looting was opportunistic theft of luxury goods. Criminals used the chaos to their own benefit, and street gangs settled scores with each other and with the police.

Smaller, concomitant unrest occurred in other United States cities, especially Las Vegas, Atlanta, and San Francisco, but also including Oakland, New York, Seattle, Chicago, Phoenix, Madison, and even the Canadian city of Toronto.

Alot more people died and alot more damage happened in just a couple days in LA, because Americans are alot more violent
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
76
Crap another Pipes article? This guy is a joke.


I prefer Buchanan's take on it...

http://www.theamericancause.org/a-pjb-051109-Paris.htm

"Like the urban riots in America in the 1960s, which the Kerner Commission blamed on "white racism," Paris' riots are being blamed on France's failure to bring Islamic immigrants into the social and economic mainstream. Solutions being offered range from voting rights for non-citizens to affirmative action in hiring the children of Third World immigrants.

To understand why this is unlikely to solve France's crisis, consider how America succeeded, and often failed, in solving her own racial crisis.

While, as late as the 1950s, black Americans were not integrated fully into our economy or society, they had been assimilated into American culture. They worshipped the same God, spoke the same language, had endured the same Depression and war, listened to the same music and radio, watched the same TV shows, laughed at the same comedians, went to the same movies, ate the same foods, read the same books, magazines and newspapers, and went to schools where, even when they were segregated, they learned the same history.

We were divided, but we were also one nation and one people. Black folks were as American as apple pie, having lived in our common land longer than almost every other ethnic group save Native Americans. And America had a history of having assimilated immigrants in the tens of millions from Europe.

But no European nation has ever assimilated a large body of immigrant peoples, let alone people of color. Moreover, the African and Islamic peoples pouring into Europe ? there are 20 million there now ? are, unlike black Americans, strangers in a new land, and millions wish to remain proud Algerians, Muslims, Moroccans."
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Originally posted by: biostud
isn't this similar to the riot in L.A. after the Rodney King incident?

How? Was there a single incident that sparked the violence?


On 27 October two teenage boys, Zyed Benna and Bouna Traore, were killed when they climbed into an electricity sub-station in Paris and were electrocuted.

It's been reported that they were either being chased by police, or thought they were being chased, on that night. It has also been suggested they may have been trying to avoid an ID check.

The police say they weren't chasing the boys.
Link

But..

Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested; about 42% were African-American, 44% Hispanic, 9% white, and 2% other. These numbers are proportional to the number of residents in the areas of Los Angeles where the events occurred, although they are not proportional to the racial make-up of Los Angeles as a whole. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted, although stores owned by whites and blacks were also targeted. Despite the race riot image the event retains, much of the looting and violence was done by young men, black, Hispanic and white, and much of the looting was opportunistic theft of luxury goods. Criminals used the chaos to their own benefit, and street gangs settled scores with each other and with the police.

Smaller, concomitant unrest occurred in other United States cities, especially Las Vegas, Atlanta, and San Francisco, but also including Oakland, New York, Seattle, Chicago, Phoenix, Madison, and even the Canadian city of Toronto.

Alot more people died and alot more damage happened in just a couple days in LA, because Americans are alot more violent

But some kids getting killed because of their own stupidity is not even close to a Rodney King situation(a racial situation). It's not like the sub-station randomly chose the kids so why is that an excuse for others to go wild? And even if the kids were chased by the cops(which hasn't been proven to be true) why should that spark massive mayhem? Especially since they CHOSE to enter a dangerous place.
I can understand a King situation because of the intense racial tension over the case, but a couple kids causing their own death doesn't strike me as something that should spark widespread riots(in many countries).
 
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