Regrouting my kitchen sink

[Muse]

I've done this before. It needs it bad now, water's getting in and I fear the supporting wood might be suffering dry rot. So, I figure I need to pry up a lot of, maybe all the tile surrounding my double basin porcelain kitchen sink, then apply silicone sealant where the tile meets the vertical tiled wall in back.

OK, but I don't want to go to Home Depot or my local HW store until I'm vaccinated. I have some old powdered grout but am afraid to use it because of it's age, probably 3 years old, guessing, maybe more.

So, I just got 30 days free Amazon Prime. Do I want to get a premixed grout (I've never used anything like that) or powdered. Amazon has 10 lb powdered IIRC for $11, has several types of premixed.

What do you think?

 

[herm0016]

I think we need pics.

 

[Greenman]

Premixed is a pain to use, I don't like it at all. Prism grout is about the best I've come across.
The tile shouldn't be glued directly to the plywood sub base, there should be a layer of tar paper, then mortar or tile backer. The tile shouldn't come up easily. If it's anything other than a nightmare to remove it was installed incorrectly.

 

[Muse]

I think we need pics.

At the moment I have a plastic bag, sliced open and taped over the tile at the front in an effort to keep more water from sinking in. I could take that off, but why? It's bull-nose tile all around the perimeter, each piece about 6 inches long, which transition pieces at the 4 corners. You can imagine that.

 

[Muse]

Premixed is a pain to use, I don't like it at all. Prism grout is about the best I've come across.
The tile shouldn't be glued directly to the plywood sub base, there should be a layer of tar paper, then mortar or tile backer. The tile shouldn't come up easily. If it's anything other than a nightmare to remove it was installed incorrectly.

Well, I did the last installation(s). Don't remember exactly what I did, if I removed all the surrounding tiles. I regrouted all the surface tile in the kitchen, mostly it looks pretty good still, and it's been several years.

I'll have to look into redoing the tile around the sink right, I guess. When you say mortar, you aren't talking about tile grout, but some kind of mortar. What is tile backer? I guess I have to find some video(s) to show how to do this.

I don't know what I'm going to find when I try to remove the tiles. Some of them at the front, are obviously needing removal. At the back it doesn't look that way but the sealant is all stained very dark, it looks black to me (colorblind).

 

[Greenman]

A tile counter generally has a plywood base that's attached to the cabinets, over that is a layer of tar paper to protect the wood from moisture. Over that is either 3/4" of cement mortar (sand and cement) or tile backer. That can be one of several things, the two most common are wonderboard and hardibacker. If the tile was properly installed with thin set mortar (different than the mortar used as a substrate) it won't come up without fracturing. Generally it requires a hammer and a crow bar to get it up. If you end up doing this, WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. When the tile breaks little chips fly and they're razor sharp. I had a little flake of tile cut a vein on the back of my hand that I had to cauterize to get it to stop bleeding.

 

[jmagg]

If there are loose tile, you'll need to remove them to see if there is, or the extent of water damage to the substrate, and let dry. Next, determine if the substrate is cementitious or wood directly under the tile, and repair or replace accordingly. Remove all dead or soft material under the tile. If wood, stick tile with a good mastic adhesive, or thinset if cementitious, then grout and caulk. Mastic under a counter is a bad idea and will always fail in wet areas eventually, but beside replacing the entire top you're stuck with what you have.

 

[Muse]

I think we need pics.

Pix coming, sometime after dawn...

 

[Muse]

Pix coming, sometime after dawn...

 

[Greenman]

Counter top is toast. Probably around 80 years old, substrate has swelled, probably some rot along with the obvious mold issue. If you look closely you'll see mold growing out of the fractured tile.

 

[Muse]

Counter top is toast. Probably around 80 years old, substrate has swelled, probably some rot along with the obvious mold issue. If you look closely you'll see mold growing out of the fractured tile.

House built in 1910. So, the construction is likely not what you said it would/should be. Right now I don't want to rip it all out. I've done repairs on the tile in the kitchen before. Might be some rot, can deal with it maybe after pulling up the loose tile. I figure there's a way to waterproof a repair after treating what's underneath. Some of the tile is fractured, as you can see, I've just jammed those back together at the fractures in the past. I was able to find some replacement tile some years ago but don't know if that's possible now. Anyway, with pandemic going ballistic I am not going to go on a mission to find those exact tiles. They may be real hard to find now.

 

[echo4747]

I would agree w/Greenman that this countertop is beyond repairing properly. I also see your point w/regard to keeping this countertop till you a comfortable that the pandemic is no longer an issue. If you want to put a "band aid on this I would look for some type of adhesive/mastic that is rated for exterior use to bond the loose tiles. Then regrout. I would use whatever grout you currently have as this "repair" is not going to last for too long. Anything you purchase to "fix" this existing tile countertop is throwing away money that can be spent on a proper replacement. You will be constantly fighting the mold issue as long as you keep this countertop

 

[Greenman]

House built in 1910. So, the construction is likely not what you said it would/should be. Right now I don't want to rip it all out. I've done repairs on the tile in the kitchen before. Might be some rot, can deal with it maybe after pulling up the loose tile. I figure there's a way to waterproof a repair after treating what's underneath. Some of the tile is fractured, as you can see, I've just jammed those back together at the fractures in the past. I was able to find some replacement tile some years ago but don't know if that's possible now. Anyway, with pandemic going ballistic I am not going to go on a mission to find those exact tiles. They may be real hard to find now.

That's going to be an unpleasant piece of work. Good luck!

 

[jmagg]

"they don't build them like they used to"

Thank God! (or insert your local deity)

 

[Muse]

I would agree w/Greenman that this countertop is beyond repairing properly. I also see your point w/regard to keeping this countertop till you a comfortable that the pandemic is no longer an issue. If you want to put a "band aid on this I would look for some type of adhesive/mastic that is rated for exterior use to bond the loose tiles. Then regrout. I would use whatever grout you currently have as this "repair" is not going to last for too long. Anything you purchase to "fix" this existing tile countertop is throwing away money that can be spent on a proper replacement. You will be constantly fighting the mold issue as long as you keep this countertop

Can I get recommendation(s) for possible/decent "adhesive/mastic that is rated for exterior use to bond the loose tiles?"

I don't mind ordering some powdered grout, it will be around $12 for 10lb. I just don't trust what I have.

I'll be ordering and likely through Amazon. I have that free Prime for another 27 days or so.

 

[echo4747]

Can I get recommendation(s) for possible/decent "adhesive/mastic that is rated for exterior use to bond the loose tiles?"

I don't mind ordering some powdered grout, it will be around $12 for 10lb. I just don't trust what I have.

I'll be ordering and likely through Amazon. I have that free Prime for another 27 days or so.

i would give this a try :https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Poly...xterior+grade+adhesive&qid=1607464225&sr=8-13

it does say it can be applied to wet damp surfaces and claims to a strong adhesive. It isnt too expensive either

 

[Muse]

That's going to be an unpleasant piece of work. Good luck!

You wouldn't believe what I did with my garage 3 years ago. I don't think there's a contractor on earth who would have done a better job than I did on that. This may be tricky but there were 20x the issues with that garage. The GM who inspected my house before I bought it took one look at the garage and said "that'll have to be torn down."

 

[Greenman]

Anything can be fixed, the issue is that some things aren't worth repairing. That equation changes a lot when it's a DIY project. Labor is free, building codes are nothing more than suggestions, and the customer is easy to please.
As a contractor, I wouldn't touch your countertop project because there is no way to do it properly. The very best I could hope for is to end up with something you wouldn't sue me for.

 

[Micrornd]

I had a little flake of tile cut a vein on the back of my hand that I had to cauterize to get it to stop bleeding.

Propane torch and nail or cigarette lighter and razor knife ?

 

[Greenman]

Propane torch and nail or cigarette lighter and razor knife ?

Just a cigarette. Ruined a perfectly good smoke.

 

[Muse]

That's going to be an unpleasant piece of work. Good luck!

I don't expect easy. Actually, TBH, strikes me as a piece of cake compared to a lot of around the house projects I've faced, managed, and in many cases conquered. No failures come to mind!

I ordered what I think I need, could use, from Amazon, should be here today/tomorrow. Meantime, I'm trying to keep the tile dry in front.

 

[Greenman]

Post a pic when you get it opened up, I'm curious to see what's under there.

 

[Muse]

Post a pic when you get it opened up, I'm curious to see what's under there.

Will do. Got my grout, adhesive and caulk deliveries yesterday, grout removal tools should come today. I have oscillating tools and attachments, but info I see online says to avoid those if you can to keep from kicking up a storm of dust.

 

[Muse]

Post a pic when you get it opened up, I'm curious to see what's under there.

I have a mind right now to just remove the front tiles, the ones you see are obviously pulling away. The sides and back look totally solid to me. Yes, the caulk looks awful but apparently it's discoloration. Maybe that discoloration is due to mold, I don't know, but it looks solid. I figure the grout under that caulk is OK, see no indication from appearance that it isn't. So figure, cut away that discolored caulk, clean the tile surface and apply new white silicone caulk... that is to the sides and back. The front, I'll take photos when I get the tiles off.

 

[Muse]

Post a pic when you get it opened up, I'm curious to see what's under there.

@Greenman

Here are pics. I figure it'll take some imagination, a variety of materials, tools and techniques to restore the wood structure. Dry rot in there, but it doesn't permeate deep except for the ~3/4" piece next to the sink, which I figure to get out of there.

I figure replace the punky piece next to the sink, shim cutaway piece from the front.

Maybe should use tar paper in there before grouting, i.e. not grout directly to the wood. I think I should watch some Youtube videos.

I have chisels, wood chisels, angle grinder, oscillating tools and attachments, wood, various glues and adhesives, caulk, and etc.

The outside wood (i.e. the wood you actually see (painted) when the tile is replaced looks only dry rotted maybe 1/2 inch down. Can cut that away maybe using angle grinder. I have a jigsaw but the blade may go too deep (i.e. reach the sink) and if so, can't use that (unless I cut the blade short!).

Meantime, have little or no use of the sink, I don't want to get more water on the front. I have been using the sink but been careful to keep the front dry. Can wash dishes in the bathroom sink, or just be careful in the kitchen.