Religion in general...

[flexy]

I'm curious how athiests define ethical behavior?

Ethics is something I developed for myself (in large parts) but of course my education, parents and also culture, society etc. also played a role there.

It sure IS NOT something that was "taught to me" by a priest back when I was a kid going to church or by the religion teacher - not by a long shot.

If anything, after many years and some thinking, I can say that (certain parts) of Christian ideas are *confirming* my ethics, but I didn't get my ethics from there.

How (as an agnostic/atheist/free thinker etc.) do I DEFINE my ethics?

Hmmm, let me try to answer this...

You ask whether an action that causes suffering is unethical and who decides that?

I think that one "spiritual goal" (if such even exists) in our lives is to ultimately overcome the ego. This is meant broadly, it includes overcoming own desires, greed, egotism etc....and the realization that OTHERS are at least as, if not more, "important" than ourselves.

When you have not overcome the ego you have no problem w/ causing suffering since you are unable/unwilling/uninterested in the actual suffering you created. You live in your own bubble that centers only about your own desires, experiences, joy etc...you don't care about others. (The fact that our culture/society actually promotes this certainly doesn't help either.)

When you have overcome the ego (which obviously is difficult) and I guess only a few "enlightened ones", "prophets" etc. ever managed this 100%... or if you start to make steps toward this, then you realize that the suffering you cause someone else (human, animal, etc.) is bad.

(Differently spoken, example: There is two people. The one is you, the other is someone else. There is a big amount of money. [Or a big amount of pain, or whatever]. If you're not progressed "spiritually", YOU obviously want the money rather than the other person. You also think it's better the other feels pain or misfortune as long as its not you.
If you're spiritually progressed, you might actually have MORE joy giving someone else money than enriching yourself - and seeing someone else in pain is as much, or worse, than if you were in pain yourself.)

So, this is my own benchmark for ethics - this is why I can say that creating suffering is indeed unethical.

And I also think that "giving up the ego" is sorta universal, since we're ALL naturally ego-driven...from the instant of birth. Our entire life is needing to fulfill our own needs and desires, breathing, eating, etc...it is almost as if our life is "designed" as an ultimate challenge whether we AT SOME POINT discover this "big secret" that it's all about giving up this ego.

(This is my own philosophy)

 

[piasabird]

Religion could be described as a philosophy for life or living. In the east they had different religions some of which evolved around God and some evolved around Confucianism. Which of course are also based in the origins of Chinese Characters, Filial responsibility and duty to the kingdom and also a class system. It is not really based on a God so to speak. However, Buddhism is a little different and is based on different ideals including the sanctity of life and achieving perfection or enlightenment.

 

[piasabird]

In some kingdoms they thought religion was bad because it was considered treason to not recognize the King as the authority, and a system of Lords under him. Saying all men are equal could get you charged with treason.

 

[MajinCry]

The religious, the Abrahamics in particular, will say that it's because of Jeudaism/Christianity/Islam that people draw their morality.

Well, feel free to read the Torah (Old Testament), The Talmud, The Quran or the Hadith.

From Yahweh commanding the marriage of young rape victims to their rapists, to Mohamad, being the best human being to have ever lived according to Muslims, making Safiya into his sex slave after slaughtering her husband (and tribe) and raping her.

They're not good books. Far from it. Sex slavery? Commanded. Rape? Commanded. Slavery? Commanded. Child rape? If not commanded, implored. Slaughter? Commanded. Totalitarianism? God in a nutshell.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Is a goldmine for discovering the sheer psychopathic barbarism commanded and implored by the Abrahamic religions.

 

[sm625]

Religion is a tool of division. The elites of the world worship Ba'al/Saturn/Lucifer behind closed doors, but they peddle christianity and islam because they were found to be the most effective tools to set populations against each other. It works like a charm. Even today, when every person has access to enough information to (correctly) deduce that all these mainstream religions are simply variations on Sun worship, most people do not bother to see this simple and obvious truth. People will fight to the death for their beliefs, but they wont take 5 minutes to comprehend that their religions they are fighting over all stem from the exact same narrative that was written thousands of years before their religious book of choice was even written. Be an atheist all you want, but whether you believe or not, you have to be able to find some way to explain how people are so easily and readily manipulated in this fashion. I believe it is the pagan black magic of the luciferians which has enabled them to cast this cloud over people which prevents them from seeing simple and obvious truths so they can keep fighting each other over their ignorant interpretations of their sun god. Sun worship is embedded into our DNA. The pagan black magic uses occult symbols (mainly sun symbols) to poke and prod at our subconscious to keep us on the path of perpetual enslavement to these false god concepts.

 

[Mai72]

I was born Catholic. I did pretty much everything when I was young. I went to church, etc.. As I've gotten older I couldn't tell you the last time i was in church.

About a year ago I started to follow the Buddhist religion. It's an interesting religion. Buddha was born a Prince. He had everything imaginable. Money, pretty women, beautiful house, etc.. but, his father the king shielded his son from the dangers of the world. So one day the prince decided to take a chariot ride outside the palace, and he saw 4 things that would shape his life forever.

1) An old man: the prince asked the chariot rider about the old guy, and he stated that he is old. Aging is something that will happen to all of us.

2) Sick man suffering from disease: Again, it was explained to the prince that all humans are subject to pain and disease.

3) A dead body: It was explained to the prince that death is an inevitable fate that will befall everyone.

4) An ascetic worshipper: When the prince saw the worshipper he became hopeful that he too could devote himself fully and find the cause of human suffering.

The next day he left everything behind and began his life as an ascetic worshipper so he could find the root cause of human suffering.

The Four Noble Truths:

Suffering is Universal
The Orgin of Suffering is Attachment
The Cessation of Suffering is Attainable
Path to the Cessation of Suffering is Attainable

Basically, if we want to shed suffering we must be unattached to our emotions, our belongings, our health, our aging, etc.. because to be attached is to suffer. Think about older people who try to hold on to their youth. Or, people who work themselves to death. Why? In the end we are all going to pass away.

So, this is what I've been following. I meditate about 5-10 minutes a day. I hope to be able to meditate an hour a day. It helps with my stress, and it centers me. I don't follow Christianity that much, and I haven't been to church in a long time. I'm on the fence when it comes to God.

 

[Mai72]

I just wanted to state that I've learned more about life follow the Buddhist religion than any other religion. It has shown me just how neurotic many people really are in life, and it has shown that we live in mainly a toxic society.

 

[Caravaggio]

I was born Catholic. I did pretty much everything when I was young. I went to church, etc.. As I've gotten older I couldn't tell you the last time i was in church.

About a year ago I started to follow the Buddhist religion. It's an interesting religion.

It is a school of thought, with a set of statements considered by some to be profound, but why is it a 'religion'?

The Four Noble Truths:

Suffering is Universal

True, it comes with the DNA, but the poor are more familiar with it.

The Orgin of Suffering is Attachment

Why? Suffering comes in many forms. Has your doctor checked for kidney stones? Your dentist for an abscess?

The Cessation of Suffering is Attainable

True.

Path to the Cessation of Suffering is Attainable

Perhaps. But if it depends on detaching from loved ones and renouncing involvement with others it might leave others hurt and isolated.
I don't see that as ethically 'sound'.

 

[disappoint]

So, this is what I've been following. I meditate about 5-10 minutes a day. I hope to be able to meditate an hour a day. It helps with my stress, and it centers me. I don't follow Christianity that much, and I haven't been to church in a long time. I'm on the fence when it comes to God.

What do you do to meditate? Repeat the same phrase over and over in your mind for a few minutes?

 

[Mai72]

What do you do to meditate? Repeat the same phrase over and over in your mind for a few minutes?

When I meditate I will let thoughts come into my mind, think about the thought, and let it go. Say for instance I'm meditating and I think about going to the store, or the thought of doing my laundry comes into my mind. I acknowledge the thought and let it go. Then another thought comes, I acknowledge it and let it go. My goal is to be present. Void of thoughts. It's hard. Please keep in mind that I'm just a beginner. It can be a very frustrating experience at times. My goal is to get better. To do that I try to meditate about 10 minutes a day, everyday. I do it daily, 7 days a week. I also do it in the morning as it's part of my morning ritual. I'd like to get to the point that I can meditate for an hour a day. That's going to be a while though.

I try to keep it simple. I don't worry about having the right mat, and I don't worry about my mindset. I just do it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The religious, the Abrahamics in particular, will say that it's because of Jeudaism/Christianity/Islam that people draw their morality.

Well, feel free to read the Torah (Old Testament), The Talmud, The Quran or the Hadith.

From Yahweh commanding the marriage of young rape victims to their rapists, to Mohamad, being the best human being to have ever lived according to Muslims, making Safiya into his sex slave after slaughtering her husband (and tribe) and raping her.

They're not good books. Far from it. Sex slavery? Commanded. Rape? Commanded. Slavery? Commanded. Child rape? If not commanded, implored. Slaughter? Commanded. Totalitarianism? God in a nutshell.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Is a goldmine for discovering the sheer psychopathic barbarism commanded and implored by the Abrahamic religions.

Misrepresent the truth much...or misunderstand what you real in its whole context?

 

[disappoint]

When I meditate I will let thoughts come into my mind, think about the thought, and let it go. Say for instance I'm meditating and I think about going to the store, or the thought of doing my laundry comes into my mind. I acknowledge the thought and let it go. Then another thought comes, I acknowledge it and let it go. My goal is to be present. Void of thoughts. It's hard. Please keep in mind that I'm just a beginner. It can be a very frustrating experience at times. My goal is to get better. To do that I try to meditate about 10 minutes a day, everyday. I do it daily, 7 days a week. I also do it in the morning as it's part of my morning ritual. I'd like to get to the point that I can meditate for an hour a day. That's going to be a while though.

I try to keep it simple. I don't worry about having the right mat, and I don't worry about my mindset. I just do it.

Why do that? Seems like that would be a wasted hour when you could do something creative instead. I find being creative to be fulfilling.

 

[WelshBloke]

Why do that? Seems like that would be a wasted hour when you could do something creative instead. I find being creative to be fulfilling.

He's talking about pooping.

 

[Onceler]

I think what religion (though religion is by no means a requirement for this) can do effectively is to get people to think about ethics in a more logical and fully-fleshed-out way, but unfortunately a lot of the time it gets distilled down to a message of "don't do this because this is bad, and do as I say". Ethics is a complex topic because the circumstances are infinitely variable, and sometimes life involves choosing the apparently least unethical course of action.

I was brought up as a Catholic, but looking back on going to Mass every Sunday as a teen, I can't think of anything quite so moronic as the "repeat after me, listen to this, kneel, stand up, sit down" routine I experienced. Nor can I ever remember a priest giving a sermon that might make people step back and re-think anything. This doesn't teach people to use their intelligence, develop their moral compass, and prepare them for the difficult choices they may have to make in their lives.

It sounds hilarious to even think this, but I think Star Trek TNG made me think a lot more about ethics (when I was a teen) than Catholicism ever did.

However I think there's more to religion than ethics, there's also faith (again though, faith is not solely derivable from religion). Everyone needs faith in something; eg. the feeling that "it's going to be alright", or that someone or something has your back or at least will be there for you. IMO someone who literally has no faith in anything is very likely to be (figuratively) completely dead inside.

Catholics prefer ritual over spirit. They don't understand that the ritual is a form of ceremonial magic(I refuse to give in to Crowley who said that it should be spelled with a k). There is no magic in their rituals because the priests have forgotten how to call down the light.

 

[flexy]

Catholicism is anti-spiritual, anti-"experiencing god for yourself".

If people have actual spiritual experiences, the Church does it off as heretic, evil etc. Good example would be out-of body experiences or NDE experiences, things the church usually opposes.

(Giving the example of the lady who had an incredible NDE and told nuns about it who told her to keep it for herself since it is not "conform" with what the church teaches...)

The irony is, that "god" of course CAN ONLY be "experienced" and not taught. A priest or a religion teacher can not bring god to someone.

One could speculate that rituals are a purposeful distraction, because if someone is tied up in rituals they cannot *experience*.

Someone who meditates (I reckon) or someone who goes out in nature, just observing is likely to experience god 1000x more likely than a person spooling off a "sit-down-stand-up-sing-knee-sit-down-sing-kneel" ritual in a church for an hour.

The actual question is...WHY is the church opposed to an actual "god experience"? Is it maybe afraid that people who have spiritual experiences might see/learn something that is detrimental to the institution of church?

** Related, maybe the same reason they crucified Jesus...because he taught something and made people realize something which made certain people uncomfortable..."OMG that hippie who says violence is bad and god cannot be found in temples, but he might be under the next rock". PREPOSTEROUS, let's crucify him!

 

[Bart*Simpson]

Catholics prefer ritual over spirit. They don't understand that the ritual is a form of ceremonial magic(I refuse to give in to Crowley who said that it should be spelled with a k). There is no magic in their rituals because the priests have forgotten how to call down the light.

My Catholic uncle (who died in 2013) once said that the Catholic Church no longer believes in miracles and that were Jesus Himself to walk into the Vatican today he'd be bumrushed right back out again. Sad.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is a school of thought, with a set of statements considered by some to be profound, but why is it a 'religion'?


True, it comes with the DNA, but the poor are more familiar with it.


Why? Suffering comes in many forms. Has your doctor checked for kidney stones? Your dentist for an abscess?

True.

Perhaps. But if it depends on detaching from loved ones and renouncing involvement with others it might leave others hurt and isolated.
I don't see that as ethically 'sound'.

I think you make some unexamined assumptions here:

I do not equate the experience of pain as the same experience as suffering. You can suffer from pain in the sense that you can experience profound physical discomfort but to suffer, in the way I would use that term religiously, would mean to feel existentially, to suffer grief at ones fate and ones condition, to suffer God separation and the loss of love.

Thus, to be detached would not involve any notion of renunciation, but rather a break in the sense of identification with the notion that loss of love is something we deserve.

You are a highly rational person who has achieved much with his life in my opinion. You have acquired a sense of self confidence say, facing up to the fear of bullies. You might then be said to be free from suffering from them. It's just a change produced by a change in circumstances that produced a change in attitude. You no longer suffer the feeling of being that kind of victim.

In my opinion, suffering is the acceptance and the failure to challenge the unexamined assumptions we make about why we suffer, and for the reason that we do not want to feel what we feel. Instead of feeling our suffering and remembering and actually knowing what we suffer from, we bury our pain and avoid all connections to it via rationalization. Growing up and becoming strong and physically capable gave you a means to challenge just such an assumption. The tunnel of truth can be dug from two ends. Feeling what you feel, and challenging assumption is reality by accomplishment and achieving being status.

I believe that truth is a state. THE STATE of being, the transcendence and fear of being, the courage to be vulnerably alive, to allow the capacity, the dangerous vulnerability of allowing self love in once again. The enemy, in my opinion, is thought. Thought is of the past, based on language and the programming that attaches to words. It is the acceptance, as a child that we are bad, evil little worthless people who deserve to suffer. No other animal can experience that kind of suffering because no other animal can think.

The job of real meditation, I think, is to transcend thinking, to deprogram that condition, by constantly and gently attempting to end it. For the meditator, I think, the day may come when the temple bell rings and the meditator will suddenly be that bell ringing. He or she will grasp in that instant, that everything is about being.

Psychotherapy, then, in my opinion offers a path to feeling based on remembering and re-experiencing one's childhood trauma, whereas medication offers a way to simply jump right over those feelings via instant recognition. Some practitioners uggest they go well together.

 

[piasabird]

Leaving God outside of the discussion. What is the point to living. To quote a biblical source one philosophy might be "Eat Drink and be Merry for Tomorrow we Die!".

However, once you start having hangovers, and uspset stomach from drinking, you might come to the question, What is left? What is life all about? Is it all pointless?

Perhaps some form of spiritual enlightenment is needed to make life worthwhile.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

The main problem with this approach is this: Let's assume all the claims of a particular religion are correct. God is real, and God says "X is immoral." The immediate question that follows is "Why does god say X is immoral?". Either God has a justification for something being unethical, or he doesn't.

If he does have a reason why something is unethical - if ethics is more then simply a command of god - then why not bypass god entirely? Give us the reason why god calls something immoral directly, not the command.

And if there's not an explanation for why God says something is immoral, how is morality anything other then authoritarianism?

 

[KMFJD]

My Catholic uncle (who died in 2013) once said that the Catholic Church no longer believes in miracles and that were Jesus Himself to walk into the Vatican today he'd be bumrushed right back out again. Sad.

Catholic Church has recognized 4 Miracles since 1900 ,our Lady of rosary, virgin of the poor, mother of the world and 1 other....there have also been 7 approved by local bishops..... the December 2015 issue of National Geographic has a good article on this.....personally I thinks it's all hogwash....

 

[ultron]

As an agnostic, i think religions are lie but they're necessary. Humanity can't be trusted with their own conscience. We need a fictional entity (named gGod)that punish the bad actions and reward the good acts. But all of the religions need a small update to keep up with 21st century. Otherwise all religions are doomed to die in the near future. Think it like a natural selection. Some of them couldn't reach now, because most of their rules are bullshit. Most rules of the popular religions' are morally true. But they have some defects that make people to do some wrong things. We have to modify religions that help us to build a better world.

 

[WelshBloke]

We need a fictional entity (named gGod)that punish the bad actions and reward the good acts.

Religious people don't believe that either.

If they did they wouldn't get so vengeful when people transgress "gods" law.

 

[ultron]

Religious people don't believe that either.

If they did they wouldn't get so vengeful when people transgress "gods" law.

They became angry when other people's "sins" because their religions order to stop all sins on the world. They think that they're responsible.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

However I think there's more to religion than ethics, there's also faith (again though, faith is not solely derivable from religion). Everyone needs faith in something; eg. the feeling that "it's going to be alright", or that someone or something has your back or at least will be there for you. IMO someone who literally has no faith in anything is very likely to be (figuratively) completely dead inside.

religious faith isn't something admirable as it is a trust in doctrine base on spiritual "feelings" rather than proof

regular faith, e.g. I have faith that my friends/family will be there for me, that's actually based on previous experiences

I don't have any faith in things that there isn't evidence for

 

[agent00f]

religious faith isn't something admirable as it is a trust in doctrine base on spiritual "feelings" rather than proof

regular faith, e.g. I have faith that my friends/family will be there for me, that's actually based on previous experiences

I don't have any faith in things that there isn't evidence for

Religions aren't terribly special as systems for social cohesion. It's just that in modern times they've been increasingly replaced by more formalized systems like nations with more systematic social rule enforcement and so on.

Notice that nations also perform morally deficient acts with the same kind of sycophants rationalizing it. Social systems are inherently human institutions.