Religion

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IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,436
5,410
136
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Did you miss the part where I said when you compare it to? Obviously it's horrible. But then again it's not the chattel slavery we think of these days. In most cases.

Wow. I'm sorry you were brainwashed at such a young age
I'd wager that Spartan has a considerable edge on you in terms of enlightenment and education.

Sorry, anyone who trys to justify slavery in the Bible by saying it is "out of context" does not sound educated.

Ocguy31, where did I attempt to justify slavery? I am vehemently opposed to it, and stated that it was horrible. Also, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think I was raised as a brainwashed Christian. Might apply for some on this board but it certainly doesn't apply to me.

Did you miss the whole relative clause "in comparison to"? If I say something that is horrible *almost* seems civilized compared to something that is utterly, despicably, unspeakably horrible that does not mean that I am saying it is civilized!

Also, people who proof-text (cherry-picking verses out of various books to "prove" a point without examining the text more carefully) need to learn to really read the text. You folks are doing the same thing as the literalist Bible thumpers (i.e. quoting the "original word of God" to "prove" a point). Never mind that the "original" is more like "copies of copies" and the original languages were mostly Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek...

Slavery as mentioned in the Bible is a whole *range* of conditions from chattel slavery like African Americans suffered under to indentured servitude. I don't think any of them are nice things, but I sure as hell don't like it when people fail to make distinctions between very different things. "Blah blah he's just arguing semantics."

It's my job to argue semantics and to nitpick about details. I study the historical, political, social, and cultural contexts of the text in order to get as much meaning out of it as possible. Do you know how many names are used for God in the Hebrew Bible alone? Try "El Shaddai" "YHWH" "Adonai Elohim" "Adonai Elohai" "Adonai El Elyon" "El Roi" for starters. Each of them have very distinct meanings which often just get translated "God"

Now multiply that by eleventy billion for many other myriad terms that get translated into the English "slave" or "to know" or "make a covenant" (Lit. "cut" a covenant) and you begin to see that it's not so simple.
 

Mr. Lennon

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
3,492
1
81
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Did you miss the part where I said when you compare it to? Obviously it's horrible. But then again it's not the chattel slavery we think of these days. In most cases.

Wow. I'm sorry you were brainwashed at such a young age
I'd wager that Spartan has a considerable edge on you in terms of enlightenment and education.

Sorry, anyone who trys to justify slavery in the Bible by saying it is "out of context" does not sound educated.

Ocguy31, where did I attempt to justify slavery? I am vehemently opposed to it, and stated that it was horrible. Also, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think I was raised as a brainwashed Christian. Might apply for some on this board but it certainly doesn't apply to me.

Did you miss the whole relative clause "in comparison to"? If I say something that is horrible *almost* seems civilized compared to something that is utterly, despicably, unspeakably horrible that does not mean that I am saying it is civilized!

Also, people who proof-text (cherry-picking verses out of various books to "prove" a point without examining the text more carefully) need to learn to really read the text. You folks are doing the same thing as the literalist Bible thumpers (i.e. quoting the "original word of God" to "prove" a point). Never mind that the "original" is more like "copies of copies" and the original languages were mostly Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek...

Slavery as mentioned in the Bible is a whole *range* of conditions from chattel slavery like African Americans suffered under to indentured servitude. I don't think any of them are nice things, but I sure as hell don't like it when people fail to make distinctions between very different things. "Blah blah he's just arguing semantics."

It's my job to argue semantics and to nitpick about details. I study the historical, political, social, and cultural contexts of the text in order to get as much meaning out of it as possible. Do you know how many names are used for God in the Hebrew Bible alone? Try "El Shaddai" "YHWH" "Adonai Elohim" "Adonai Elohai" "Adonai El Elyon" "El Roi" for starters. Each of them have very distinct meanings which often just get translated "God"

Now multiply that by eleventy billion for many other myriad terms that get translated into the English "slave" or "to know" or "make a covenant" (Lit. "cut" a covenant) and you begin to see that it's not so simple.

Yes, there are many different distinctions to the word "slave"....all which are negative. My reason for "cherry picking" those passages is because when a Christian is cornered, he/she will turn to the bible and say, "Well it says in the bible...." Yeah, your bible also says it condones of slavery. Of course the majority of Christians overlook the passages I posted.

Who's doing the cherry picking again?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: child of wonder
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: Robor
I have an aunt who visits a few times per year and each time she leaves she gives me something from that 'Daily Bread' publication. I'm agnostic. I don't deny the possibility of a supreme being but I don't deny the possibility there is none either. I simply don't know. Now my aunt knows this but continues to give me this religious propaganda. I know she means well but at the same time why can't she understand and accept I do not follow her chosen faith? I wonder what she would think if I gave her material from Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc? Those of faith often ask agnostics/atheists to keep an open mind yet they often practice their own religion as though it is the undeniable one and only truth. How can they deny all faiths but their own yet not accept the possibility they may be wrong?

If you don't actively believe in a god, you're an atheist. That's all the word means "a (not) - theist"

Many people don't want to call themselves that because of the stigma that religious folk have associated with it.

Agnostic and atheist are two very different things.

The latter claims to know with certainty that there is no god while the former admits one cannot know with certainty either way.

Not even close to true. I stand by what I said. Many atheists label themselves agnostic because they think that theists will treat them better if they shun the label. Being an atheist simply means you do not actively believe that a god exists. You either believe that a god is more likely than not to exist or vice versa.

In my case you couldn't be more wrong. I don't give a flying fuck what people think of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. I am very confident and open with my 'I don't know one way or the other' opinion regarding a higher power. That said, I have serious doubts about organized religions and considering many of them conflict or even hate each other apparently the 'saved' do as well.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: child of wonder
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: Robor
I have an aunt who visits a few times per year and each time she leaves she gives me something from that 'Daily Bread' publication. I'm agnostic. I don't deny the possibility of a supreme being but I don't deny the possibility there is none either. I simply don't know. Now my aunt knows this but continues to give me this religious propaganda. I know she means well but at the same time why can't she understand and accept I do not follow her chosen faith? I wonder what she would think if I gave her material from Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc? Those of faith often ask agnostics/atheists to keep an open mind yet they often practice their own religion as though it is the undeniable one and only truth. How can they deny all faiths but their own yet not accept the possibility they may be wrong?

If you don't actively believe in a god, you're an atheist. That's all the word means "a (not) - theist"

Many people don't want to call themselves that because of the stigma that religious folk have associated with it.

Agnostic and atheist are two very different things.

The latter claims to know with certainty that there is no god while the former admits one cannot know with certainty either way.

Not even close to true. I stand by what I said. Many atheists label themselves agnostic because they think that theists will treat them better if they shun the label. Being an atheist simply means you do not actively believe that a god exists. You either believe that a god is more likely than not to exist or vice versa.

In my case you couldn't be more wrong. I don't give a flying fuck what people think of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. I am very confident and open with my 'I don't know one way or the other' opinion regarding a higher power. That said, I have serious doubts about organized religions and considering many of them conflict or even hate each other apparently the 'saved' do as well.

Do you actively believe that a god exists? If not, you are an atheist, no matter what you want to label yourself. You sound like an agnostic atheist, but if you're not actively a believer, you're not a theist.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
I don't talk about religion with other people, it's like arguing with a brick wall.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Did you miss the part where I said when you compare it to? Obviously it's horrible. But then again it's not the chattel slavery we think of these days. In most cases.

Wow. I'm sorry you were brainwashed at such a young age
I'd wager that Spartan has a considerable edge on you in terms of enlightenment and education.

Sorry, anyone who trys to justify slavery in the Bible by saying it is "out of context" does not sound educated.

Ocguy31, where did I attempt to justify slavery? I am vehemently opposed to it, and stated that it was horrible. Also, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think I was raised as a brainwashed Christian. Might apply for some on this board but it certainly doesn't apply to me.

Did you miss the whole relative clause "in comparison to"? If I say something that is horrible *almost* seems civilized compared to something that is utterly, despicably, unspeakably horrible that does not mean that I am saying it is civilized!

Also, people who proof-text (cherry-picking verses out of various books to "prove" a point without examining the text more carefully) need to learn to really read the text. You folks are doing the same thing as the literalist Bible thumpers (i.e. quoting the "original word of God" to "prove" a point). Never mind that the "original" is more like "copies of copies" and the original languages were mostly Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek...

Slavery as mentioned in the Bible is a whole *range* of conditions from chattel slavery like African Americans suffered under to indentured servitude. I don't think any of them are nice things, but I sure as hell don't like it when people fail to make distinctions between very different things. "Blah blah he's just arguing semantics."

It's my job to argue semantics and to nitpick about details. I study the historical, political, social, and cultural contexts of the text in order to get as much meaning out of it as possible. Do you know how many names are used for God in the Hebrew Bible alone? Try "El Shaddai" "YHWH" "Adonai Elohim" "Adonai Elohai" "Adonai El Elyon" "El Roi" for starters. Each of them have very distinct meanings which often just get translated "God"

Now multiply that by eleventy billion for many other myriad terms that get translated into the English "slave" or "to know" or "make a covenant" (Lit. "cut" a covenant) and you begin to see that it's not so simple.

Look, it's a simple question:
If the bible is the inerrant word of god, and morality is set by God, then why does the bible not EXPLICITY state that slavery is wrong?

If the bible is NOT the inerrant word of god, and implicitly condones immoral practices, then how is it useful at ALL as a guide to morailty? If morality is eternal, god is moral, and god is all powerful, then how could he allow slavery? Free will isn't an excuse, since God clearly issues commandments. If he knew such an immoral practice was ongoing, you can't tell me an all powerful, all moral god would not include:
XI. Thou shall not hold slaves.

The only logically consistent positions are:
A. Slavery is not wrong
or
B. The bible is not a useful source of moral authority.

Even if there were EVIDENCE for a god, that wouldn't convince me that he or "his" book was moral, and I certainly would not worship a god that EVER condoned slavery, even insofar as failing to explicitly ban it.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,102
13,641
136
Originally posted by: Kev
I don't talk about religion with other people, it's like arguing with a brick wall.

That's just not true, brick walls are much quieter.
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,028
2
0
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: Kev
I don't talk about religion with other people, it's like arguing with a brick wall.

That's just not true, brick walls are much quieter.

Haven't you heard an echo?

Haven't you heard an echo?
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,102
13,641
136
Originally posted by: So
If the bible is NOT the inerrant word of god, and implicitly condones immoral practices, then how is it useful at ALL as a guide to morailty? If morality is eternal, god is moral, and god is all powerful, then how could he allow slavery? Free will isn't an excuse, since God clearly issues commandments. If he knew such an immoral practice was ongoing, you can't tell me an all powerful, all moral god would not include:
XI. Thou shall not hold slaves.

Everyone knows that was on the tablet Moses accidentally dropped, and it broke. Geez.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: So
If the bible is NOT the inerrant word of god, and implicitly condones immoral practices, then how is it useful at ALL as a guide to morailty? If morality is eternal, god is moral, and god is all powerful, then how could he allow slavery? Free will isn't an excuse, since God clearly issues commandments. If he knew such an immoral practice was ongoing, you can't tell me an all powerful, all moral god would not include:
XI. Thou shall not hold slaves.

Everyone knows that was on the tablet Moses accidentally dropped, and it broke. Geez.

 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,028
2
0
The Lord, the Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen...

Oy! Ten! Ten commandments for all to obey!
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
106
Oh look... another lets bash religion thread.

/thread

Roll Credits:
Original poster:Zeppelin2282
Banned Bigot: ICRS
Moderator: esquared


bible quoting Christian Propogandist 1: Sasiki
bible quoting antichristian: Zeppelin2282
Logician in religion: BeauJangles

Insult Coordinators: JS80, Randay

Religion Basher 1: Jeff7
Religion Basher 2: GodlessAstronomer

Closed Minded Individual: JEDIYoda

Rambler who noone understood: Nemesis 1

Atheism vs Agnostic Arguer 1: So
Atheism vs Agnostic Arguer 2: Child of Winder


Lawnchair/humor Comments:
Gothgar
hunewbie
ABitTooSpicy

Meat speak: Moshquerade

Apologies to anyone who was missed.


This post was printed on 100% recycled bytes. No trees were harmed by the creation and transmission of this post?however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

use only as directed, do not take internally, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

This thread was brought to you by the book of Genesis, the number 3, and the letter Y.

 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: So
If the bible is NOT the inerrant word of god, and implicitly condones immoral practices, then how is it useful at ALL as a guide to morailty? If morality is eternal, god is moral, and god is all powerful, then how could he allow slavery? Free will isn't an excuse, since God clearly issues commandments. If he knew such an immoral practice was ongoing, you can't tell me an all powerful, all moral god would not include:
XI. Thou shall not hold slaves.

Everyone knows that was on the tablet Moses accidentally dropped, and it broke. Geez.
And on the back it said, "Do not bend, fold, mutilate, or drop."




Curses, I wanted to be a logician in religion of some sort.
Logical religion basher, perhaps?

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: So
Not even close to true. I stand by what I said. Many atheists label themselves agnostic because they think that theists will treat them better if they shun the label. Being an atheist simply means you do not actively believe that a god exists. You either believe that a god is more likely than not to exist or vice versa.

In my case you couldn't be more wrong. I don't give a flying fuck what people think of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. I am very confident and open with my 'I don't know one way or the other' opinion regarding a higher power. That said, I have serious doubts about organized religions and considering many of them conflict or even hate each other apparently the 'saved' do as well.

Do you actively believe that a god exists? If not, you are an atheist, no matter what you want to label yourself. You sound like an agnostic atheist, but if you're not actively a believer, you're not a theist.

Again, I don't believe or disbelieve. I simply don't know. If that makes me an 'agnostic atheist' whatever. I really don't care.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
just another......"waaaaa!....someone who claims to be religious is being hypocritical towards me!...waaaaa!....I want to share with ATOT how stupid I think they are so others will support me!...waaaa!"

move along nothing to see here.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
The thing I don't understand is how so many members here say that religious people are all weak and unintelligent. A lot of those people are Obama supporters....didn't Obama make a big deal over the fact that he is Christian?

 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: rudeguy
The thing I don't understand is how so many members here say that religious people are all weak and unintelligent. A lot of those people are Obama supporters....didn't Obama make a big deal over the fact that he is Christian?

I hope you realize that you failed to make any sort of logical connection there...
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: rudeguy
The thing I don't understand is how so many members here say that religious people are all weak and unintelligent. A lot of those people are Obama supporters....didn't Obama make a big deal over the fact that he is Christian?

I hope you realize that you failed to make any sort of logical connection there...

I see what you did there...
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: rudeguy
The thing I don't understand is how so many members here say that religious people are all weak and unintelligent. A lot of those people are Obama supporters....didn't Obama make a big deal over the fact that he is Christian?

I hope you realize that you failed to make any sort of logical connection there...

I see what you did there...

...pointed out that what you said makes no sense?
 

Verbrennenkinder

Junior Member
Feb 25, 2008
18
0
0
Religion is not the cause of hardly any killing, its just the mask the cause wears.

Lust for money, power, and control are the causes, they just use religion as a way to justify their personal desires.

Crusades for example: think about it. Pope and other religious leaders get boat loads of money from people giving to churches all over Europe. People genuinely believe because most people in the middle ages are uneducated and live for nothing other than the church. People want the holy land back due to their beliefs, papacy sees a way to increase profits, power, and area of control substantially. Crusades happen. I'm not saying every pope is corrupt, but back then the pope was ruler of the known world, kings and nations obeyed his every whim. Give anyone unlimited power over people and greed takes over.


I'm atheist because I choose to use logic instead of emotional ties to guide my life. Something that irks me is when atheists or Religious people blame the other side for mass murder without thinking about it or looking into it. All these are in the end is human greed wearing the mask of religion... That's all ANY war is "human greed wearing the mask of X".
 
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