Remember that shutdown Trump WILL have?

[vi edit]

It really, really isn't. As Paratus put so well if the Democrats give in to Trump he will simply take the government hostage again the next time these bills' funding expires.

This is why you can NEVER give in to hostage takers, it just makes them take more hostages. If the government has to stay shut down until Trump loses in 2020, so be it. It's a better alternative than showing that hostage taking works.

Yes?

The wall is a base play. Nothing more. The reason for the wall is symbolism. At least on his side. On the Dem side it is a matter of policy and not giving into toddlers throwing tantrums. That we absolutely agree on.

 

[K1052]

The administration is looking to punish California and Puerto Rico by raiding Army Corps funding from various projects to build the wall. How will Republicans feel if the next Democratic president does the same and guts their state's federal funding for whatever they want?

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-california-wall-funding-20190111-story.html

Clumsy, obvious, and stupid.

 

[VRAMdemon]

And why would the Democrats want to give him any "wins" (whatever that means) Because virtually everything that he would consider a "win" would be BAD for the United States of America.

One of our customers this morning said it would be a waste of time for the Senate to pass something Trump isn't going to sign. But, of course, it WASN'T a waste of time to bring up eighty resolutions repealing Obamacare. Because, you know, Obama might have signed one of those.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Visitors Chainsaw Iconic Joshua Trees in National Park During Gov't Shutdown

Trump should be concerned. That will reduce the park's value when he tries to sell it off to developers.

 

[brycejones]

Looks like the gap between are at least 6" wide? Can't people just load up a laptop bag with drug and pass it over to the other side? Isn't Trump said something about throw bags of drugs over?

That's why it needs the automatic laser beams on top to destroy anything that is thrown over the wall. Duh.

 

[UglyCasanova]

And what would it symbolize?

It’s been repeated over and over on here and it seems the conversation keeps going in circles. Anything I say just gets rolled eyes so my suggestion is just turn on NPR and their coverage of it. Ive heard it be called a largely symbolic fight and broken down as to why numerous times on there.

 

[vi edit]

And why would the Democrats want to give him any "wins" (whatever that means) Because virtually everything that he would consider a "win" would be BAD for the United States of America.

One of our customers this morning said it would be a waste of time for the Senate to pass something Trump isn't going to sign. But, of course, it WASN'T a waste of time to bring up eighty resolutions repealing Obamacare. Because, you know, Obama might have signed one of those.

Republicans own this one. They have enabled ManChild in Chief and let us get to this point. Not even trying to pass anything in the Senate is just providing cover for Trump to try and blame democrats. Eventually it's going to get ugly enough that enough Republican senators will peel away and stop supporting the tantrum. They'll have their own elections and states to answer to and will force McConnell's hand.

Once the Senate stops protecting him then he 100% owns this. Mr. "I ALONE" will be responsible for fucking everyone out of their paychecks over a petty symbol.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Republicans own this one. They have enabled ManChild in Chief and let us get to this point. Not even trying to pass anything in the Senate is just providing cover for Trump to try and blame democrats. Eventually it's going to get ugly enough that enough Republican senators will peel away and stop supporting the tantrum. They'll have their own elections and states to answer to and will force McConnell's hand.

Once the Senate stops protecting him then he 100% owns this. Mr. "I ALONE" will be responsible for fucking everyone out of their paychecks over a petty symbol.

Yes, I can’t figure out why someone would say it’s all the Democrats fault when the President and the former Republican House and the current and former Republican Senate had TWO FUCKING YEARS to do something and chose to do nothing about the wall/immigration. Why is it hyper critical to accomplish now when it wasn’t in the previous 24 months.

 

[vi edit]

Yes, I can’t figure out why someone would say it’s all the Democrats fault when the President and the former Republican House and the current and former Republican Senate had TWO FUCKING YEARS to do something and chose to do nothing about the wall/immigration. Why is it hyper critical to accomplish now when it wasn’t in the previous 24 months.

Republican's have the best spin doctors and most gullible crowd willing to accept whatever is fed to them. That and it's hard to get into a fight of morals when one side has no need for them other than appearing to for the purpose of votes.

 

[Bitek]

Oh lord I’m sitting in my car and the NPR reporters saying this is largely a fight over symbolism not policy.

Since Trump has utterly failed to make a fact based rationale for the need for the Wall, sure, it's reasonable to conclude it's only about symbolism for Republicans.

 

[Bitek]

Yes, I can’t figure out why someone would say it’s all the Democrats fault when the President and the former Republican House and the current and former Republican Senate had TWO FUCKING YEARS to do something and chose to do nothing about the wall/immigration. Why is it hyper critical to accomplish now when it wasn’t in the previous 24 months.

Because Trump lies and never takes personal responsibility for anything that's not a brag.

Full stop.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, I can’t figure out why someone would say it’s all the Democrats fault when the President and the former Republican House and the current and former Republican Senate had TWO FUCKING YEARS to do something and chose to do nothing about the wall/immigration. Why is it hyper critical to accomplish now when it wasn’t in the previous 24 months.

Trump thought that sort of bluster would intimidate Pelosi and Schumer and make them give in to him. He didn't realize this was not true because as his whole life has shown he's a terrible negotiator. Because he's Trump though he just shifted to lying about it after it failed.

If anyone wonders why Trump has so many problems making even simple deals it's because he's an utterly unreliable negotiating partner. If you can't even trust someone not to lie about the terms under which you're negotiating how can you believe they will uphold their end of any deal?

 

[Engineer]

It’s been repeated over and over on here and it seems the conversation keeps going in circles. Anything I say just gets rolled eyes so my suggestion is just turn on NPR and their coverage of it. Ive heard it be called a largely symbolic fight and broken down as to why numerous times on there.

What you've tried to do is to state that the GOP and cheeto has a good justification to build the wall and that the dems have no justification other than it's 'symbolism' in that it's stops something that cheeto wants. I'm fine with that...fuck that fat sack of orange shit. I hope he burns in hell while waiting for the fucking wall.

The concern that this is a symbolic wall is almost overwhelming.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The controlling members of the GOP and Trump are seeking to destroy our Constitution and call for an Imperial Presidency, one that can do all things. That would be the result of Trump getting his way in a "national emergency" defined by whatever that is based on. Some Dems might salivate at the idea of universal care or gun control, anything and everything. They should be put in the same max security prison as anyone else supporting this idea.

Make no mistake, making an emergency from expediency will have marked the end of this nation. Oh it will exist, much closer to that of Orwell, as no one can be trusted with that power left or right.

Two years I would never have said the above. It would be McEwan on a bad day however the absurd has become tangible between Trump, Graham and Mitch alone. Add the supporters and we have things best not discussed in the open as real possibilities and I do not want to reach that point.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh, Harry Reid wants to look at UFOs. Half seriously, any visitors may be recording the end of a dominant technological species. We'll have done it to ourselves as well. Earth as an intergalactic cautionary tale. It appeals to my ironic side.

 

[Jhhnn]

As someone mentioned (I don't remember who) it's very interesting that he views his promise to make a useless wall to be so vital as to shutter the government and cause pain to countless millions of Americans but he apparently did not view his promise to give Americans affordable, quality health care to be particularly important.

I wonder why that is.

There's that infrastructure thing, too. Meanwhile, the MAGA reaches out into the heartland-

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/us/farmers-trump-administration.html

 

[Jhhnn]

Some Dems might salivate at the idea of universal care or gun control, anything and everything. They should be put in the same max security prison as anyone else supporting this idea.

Just had to both sides it, huh?

 

[fskimospy]

The controlling members of the GOP and Trump are seeking to destroy our Constitution and call for an Imperial Presidency, one that can do all things. That would be the result of Trump getting his way in a "national emergency" defined by whatever that is based on. Some Dems might salivate at the idea of universal care or gun control, anything and everything. They should be put in the same max security prison as anyone else supporting this idea.

There's no #bothsides here. I have not heard a single elected Democrat call for such a usurpation of power at any point in my lifetime.

Make no mistake, making an emergency from expediency will have marked the end of this nation. Oh it will exist, much closer to that of Orwell, as no one can be trusted with that power left or right.

Two years I would never have said the above. It would be McEwan on a bad day however the absurd has become tangible between Trump, Graham and Mitch alone. Add the supporters and we have things best not discussed in the open as real possibilities and I do not want to reach that point.

I agree. It is amazing how blithely Republicans are willing to walk into a situation where the President can unilaterally make up a fake emergency and use it to remove one of Congress's last remaining constitutional powers. If it happens here and is successful you can guaran-fucking-tee you will see it again and again. Trump is the national emergency.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There's that infrastructure thing, too. Meanwhile, the MAGA reaches out into the heartland-

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/us/farmers-trump-administration.html

He feels their pain.

Well, this gives Trump opportunities to pick up land cheap. Let's declare a national emergency and take the wealth of wall supporters and see how long it takes for them to think this whole thing was a bad idea. Every friggin cent.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Out of curiosity...Has Trump or any of his enablers laid out what it is that $5.7Billion is actually for? It's not quite clear. Nobody has made any clear plan, and without it, this may as well be 5.7B for a really nice golden backscratcher for him in the Oval Office. I thought it was supposed to be for the wall, but it wouldn't get us 10% of the way there. There is no laid out plan for what and how this money will be used. Speaking of Trump's say-so, how much of that 5.7 billion will be going towards quarantining the smallpox and leprosy patients? It also needs to include Arabic-speaking translators, because I'm told there will be many "Middle Eastern's" trying to cross.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There's no #bothsides here. I have not heard a single elected Democrat call for such a usurpation of power at any point in my lifetime.

As far as I am concerned these people have violated their oaths of office and are committing sedition proper. If Dems take the Senate we need to have investigations to investigate the supporters of such atrocities against our nation. Mitch and Graham first on the list. We've been to lazy and accepting, with "well if they're doing good let's not expect perfection". No, performance should have nothing to do in judging subversion.

 

[K1052]

There's that infrastructure thing, too. Meanwhile, the MAGA reaches out into the heartland-

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/us/farmers-trump-administration.html

Mr. Trump is expected to address a largely friendly audience on Monday at the American Farm Bureau’s annual convention. Many farmers, including David Nunnery, 59, of Pike County, Miss., have stayed unflinchingly loyal to Mr. Trump and his demands for $5.7 billion for a border wall, even as the shutdown threatens their livelihood.

“I may lose the farm, but I strongly feel we need some border security,” Mr. Nunnery said.

I mean...how do you ever reach people like this. I guess you don't and whatever happens to them happens.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Just had to both sides it, huh?

You don't get away with that crap. If you were to visit other sites you will see how many are acting just as I said. You could kick a dog and say "Mitt Romney! You went both sides". In this your thinking is a major problem, that when a serious threat being proposed and adopted by your "own" is to be ignored or trivialized.

That's your other side of the coin, your equivalent of Mitch and "Mueller doesn't need protection".

Just had to bring up both sides in something that matters in a universal way.

 

[fskimospy]

I mean...how do you ever reach people like this. I guess you don't and whatever happens to them happens.

It is frankly depressing to see that some people are this far gone. Trump doesn't give a single shit about that guy or if he loses his livelihood. Not one single, solitary shit. Yet this guy is willing to sacrifice himself and his family to build a wall he will never see that won't accomplish anything.

There's a sickness in this country and I don't know what to do about it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It is frankly depressing to see that some people are this far gone. Trump doesn't give a single shit about that guy or if he loses his livelihood. Not one single, solitary shit. Yet this guy is willing to sacrifice himself and his family to build a wall he will never see that won't accomplish anything.

There's a sickness in this country and I don't know what to do about it.

Build a ramp over the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a Virtual Trump announce that his people need to take a flying run off of it?


What follows is not a suggestion veiled or otherwise and I don't want anything like this.

I look at what happens historically when leaders gain fanatics which drive the population to do harm and turn on citizens who support the usurpation of power for their leaders.

One is attacks against that nation by other countries. It may be open war or covert action. I see this as least likely.

The next possibility is the overthrow by peaceful means of those leaders exemplified by the Dems taking the house. That isn't enough but taking the Senate by a sufficient margin would repel most anti-democratic actions by Trump. Ideally the Dems would take over entirely, but if I fear anything in politics is one party rule which leads to its own abuses, but for now I see it as a necessary correction. We must be extremely cautious however because being a Democrat does not mean the best interests of the nation become more important than party.

Lastly is an open rebellion as with the founding of this nation or with France. I don't see this as likely, however the possibility exists that may lead to conflicts between Farmer Rape Me Mr. Trump, and those who won't have it and the potential for escalation to a very nasty conclusion is hopefully never realized.

But things are going to get worse before they get better. Trump and the Republicans have shown that ethics isn't in question as they embrace criminality and attacking the fundamentals on which our society is based- See Graham and Mitch for examples.

Whatever happens after this going back to "business as usual" with token reforms must be avoided and "both sides" can screw themselves. This is more important than one's party, far more.