Repairs

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bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
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Considering that most mechanic shops charge about $100 - $130 per hour for labor, he is in the ballpark for a 2 - 3 hour repair job. And he will not be making much of a profit on the parts markup usually added by mechanics or dealers to what they actually pay for the parts.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,359
1,555
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He is the only one who can see what is going on. Ultimately it has to be his call.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Considering that most mechanic shops charge about $100 - $130 per hour for labor, he is in the ballpark for a 2 - 3 hour repair job. And he will not be making much of a profit on the parts markup usually added by mechanics or dealers to what they actually pay for the parts.

I understand that, and he seems to be charging a much lower rate than that, which is nice. I'm not concerned about his pricing for labor or parts.

Rather, I'm wondering whether it's justified to pay for the larger repair at $300 labor+party, or I can save the money by buying just the top manifold for $150 labor and parts.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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He is the only one who can see what is going on. Ultimately it has to be his call.

I'm not sure who 'he' is, but I don't know what I'm looking at and I sort of need to tell the repair guy whether to do the larger testing/repair or not before he gets here?
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
The reason is he will already have most of it apart to get to the other part. If you don't do it now, then if / when the other part goes bad, you have to take it all apart again to get to it. It is like when you do a timing chain. On most engines you do the water pump and chain / belt tensioners as well, since they come off to do the job. You would also do fresh coolant, t-stat, pressure cap, flush the radiator and new radiator hoses. All that is in the way anyhow. Same for your upper / lower intake job. The coolant gets drained and refilled, so a wise idea to do hoses and t-stat as well. They are cheap parts.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,359
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Cheaper labor is why you'd want an independent mechanic. On larger jobs that can mean it takes longer till completion but this work only takes a few hours and frankly it goes faster if done in one shot so it's still fresh in your mind the order in which parts came off and go back on. A shop may charge $100/hr but the mechanic typically gets half that (depending on skill level).

We would be guessing and making too significant a decision for you to tell you which to do, the smaller repair or keep going. If it NEEDS the lower gasket done and you only replace the upper, the work is somewhat wasted as it has to be torn apart again. The plastic upper manifold can be reused, and "probably" be able to reuse the new upper gasket, throttle body gasket, and "maybe" injector o-rings (lower O-rings, top will still be in place between the injector and fuel rail so usually don't need replaced, but could be prudent to replace *if you're keeping the vehicle long term*). To be clear, all three of these should be replaced with either repair. Whether they come with the upper manifold or not, determines whether they have to be purchased separately, same as whether they come with a lower manifold gasket kit but they usually do with the lower (which is what makes it a kit instead of just lower intake manifold gaskets).

Replacing the lower even if it isn't leaking would be prudent if you hope to keep the vehicle as long as possible. There are some variables to this, not only your preference but whether there was any significant wear running without oil. If the engine is in good shape, and depending on what it is and mileage (???????!!!!!!!!!!) it might last several more years, outlast the transmission which could be what totals the vehicle (unless a texting teen runs into you first). It could have a timing chain that's expensive to replace and soon to fail. We don't know the history of the vehicle or even which vehicle it is which is why the specifics and asking in a forum specific to that make and model of vehicle is usually the best way to get advice from fellow owners who have already gone through the same situation.

Similarly there may be other parts which are only accessible while the upper intake is off, or at least much easier to get to, things that may not be needed today to keep it running but are parts expected to wear out eventually, especially if they're the factory parts, things like temperature sensor(s), thermostat, and more depending on the engine (???????!!!!!!!!!!).

One way to do it is that the mechanic is examining everything while doing the work, and has plenty of light to see well. If while doing the upper, the area of the leak is found (which seems like it might have been, but that was something I was questioning earlier due to the details about leakage which didn't make sense as air is the primary thing that would leak from the upper gasket failure unless you're losing coolant) and there is reasonable confidence that's the only problem, then there is no cause at that time to do the lower if the only goal is keeping it running now as cheaply as possible. If no leak is found then the best long term strategy is keep going, taking the lower manifold off looking for the leak and this necessitates replacing the gasket to put it back on. "Most* gaskets will need replaced after they've been taken off after an extended period of being compressed. Some may need replaced after being installed and compressed even for a moment before being taken off.

That's about all I can tell you without being there and doing it myself. There's no way I can place a value on the vehicle working, how much money that would save you vs how much you like it vs body rust vs when other repairs might need done. For example if it's never had the exhaust done and you live in an area where it snows or rains a lot, that may be another few hundred dollars repair looming in the future. If the tires are bald there's another few hundred, and yet any vehicle eventually need new tires. You have to take it on a vehicle by vehicle basis.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The reason is he will already have most of it apart to get to the other part. If you don't do it now, then if / when the other part goes bad, you have to take it all apart again to get to it. It is like when you do a timing chain. On most engines you do the water pump and chain / belt tensioners as well, since they come off to do the job. You would also do fresh coolant, t-stat, pressure cap, flush the radiator and new radiator hoses. All that is in the way anyhow. Same for your upper / lower intake job. The coolant gets drained and refilled, so a wise idea to do hoses and t-stat as well. They are cheap parts.

Ya, it's just the labor goes from $70 to $300, so I'd like to make sure it's a needed/justified increase. Sounds like you're saying it is, I wonder why the mechanic didn't suggest it. I thought I was going to get out of this older care repair for $400, but it's growing into who knows what now (at least $700 and any more if he finds any problems doing this).
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Cheaper labor is why you'd want an independent mechanic.

Ya, it's a mechanic who goes to the car on nights and weekends and works at a shop business hours. He seems to be very affordable, working for a couple hours for $70 labor.

As to the value. The old car seems it can be bought for about $1000. So I passed up repairing it at the first shop for a little over $1000, but accepted this guy doing the work for $400.

Then it started creeping up. Oh, do the extra testing and the lower while you're at it (the help suggestions posted above). So we're to at least $700 and maybe more if we do that.

So I'm just wanting to make sure the expense is justified, and not just a 'hey why not check more things'. I'm guessing if he finds he needs more parts he can't buy them at night... yet he'd have the car taken apart... not sure how that'll work, if he'll just quit working on it and leave it taken apart and buy the parts the next day or what.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,359
1,555
126
I don't know the engine (lol !!!!!!!!!!!) but on most, once you get the upper off it is not that much more work to take the lower off, maybe 30% more work? More significant is the price of the gasket kit and/or what the individual parts may cost if purchased separately. A whole lower kit could cost anywhere from $40 to over $100, while individual gasket/sets (may or may not) nickle and dime you up near the same cost once you add shipping... depends on whether where you're buying the parts has everything. Amazon and Rock Auto are usually cheapest but many mechanics prefer to buy locally - it's a habit they get into since customers usually don't want to wait a few more days for mailed parts.

The thing about buying a similar car for $1000 is that it too, will probably need some repairs done soon which is why it's only worth $1000, while yours, if you do those repairs then they aren't likely to be needed again for a long time if ever (till the vehicle is junked). You have to make your best educated guess what state the rest of the vehicle is in.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I don't know the engine (lol !!!!!!!!!!!) but on most, once you get the upper off it is not that much more work to take the lower off, maybe 30% more work? More significant is the price of the gasket kit and/or what the individual parts may cost if purchased separately. A whole lower kit could cost anywhere from $40 to over $100, while individual gasket/sets (may or may not) nickle and dime you up near the same cost once you add shipping... depends on whether where you're buying the parts has everything. Amazon and Rock Auto are usually cheapest but many mechanics prefer to buy locally - it's a habit they get into since customers usually don't want to wait a few more days for mailed parts.

The thing about buying a similar car for $1000 is that it too, will probably need some repairs done soon which is why it's only worth $1000, while yours, if you do those repairs then they aren't likely to be needed again for a long time if ever (till the vehicle is junked). You have to make your best educated guess what state the rest of the vehicle is in.

Well, just the labor part between these two options goes from $70 to $300 (from $70 for replacing the upper, to $120 for the additional testing and $180 for replacing the lower and upper apparently - see his e-mail above with the pricing). So the labor charge isn't going up 30%, but over 300% more. I'd say the 'rest of the vehicle' seems 'ok' except the mirror being broken off, bad window motor...
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,359
1,555
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His prices are odd. A compression test, on a large/old american vehicle where the spark plugs aren't that hard to get to, is less work than replacing the upper manifold and gasket. Leak-down, you need a compressor and turn each cylinder piston to top dead position but still seems like a little less work, BUT he has seen this mystery engine so maybe he knows something I don't. The main point was the tests would determine if you should spend any more money on it or junk it, what effect running without oil had and even then it doesn't tell you about the bearings, gunked up lifters, worn timing chain, etc, just the cylinders.

It is unfortunate that you simultaneously had both of these things happen, though the engine might have been running hot due to no oil so it caused the leak, and "hopefully" didn't cause a head gasket/warp/crack. Sometimes a tear down to the lower intake won't find the problem yet which the leak down or compression test might indicate if one cylinder is a lot lower than the others.

The suggestion is that he proceed to start doing the cheaper repair, but that if he isn't confident that he finds the leak then he should get the LIM kit and do the lower too, while it's taken apart that far. You might try to negotiate that if he thinks the upper is all it needs and that doesn't fix it, that he'll do the lower at a reduced rate instead of another $300, because he is making the call. We can only go by what he reports and sees while doing it.

There is also a smoke test that could be done to try to pinpoint intake leaks, but yet another test, more cost, maybe as much as just doing the lower gasket/kit too. You could get the lower gasket kit from some place with a good return policy so it's there if he needs it while doing the work, then return it unopened if it isn't needed.

Flip a coin?
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I wasn't really looking to keep the old car, but new ones have not been very tempting, and if the repair was affordable, it'd make sense to keep it for now.

Ya, your 'his prices are odd' is the sort of thing I was curious about, but you finally said 'flip a coin', now there's a clear suggestion I'll see if he can start the cheaper repairs as you said.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Well this is going badly. I left him a voicemail and he didn't call back. So I'm fed up and tonight left him a message that if he didn't call me by tomorrow, I'd have to reach him at his shop next week.

He called back upset. He said he didn't come because it was raining and sent text messages - to my landline. And then he said he won't do the work and his schedule is busy.

I said he had committed to do the rest of the work. He said, he hadn't signed anything, I said no, I trusted him when he gave me his word. He then made it clear he felt I was threatening his job by talking about calling the shop. I said I couldn't trust him to work on my car at this point given his behavior and attitude and he wasn't being responsible.

I indicated I'd just left the shop know about the bad experience and leave it at that. He said not to threaten his work. Then finally he said ok, he'll clear his Sunday and do the work, he just wants to get it done. Clearly the only reason he agreed to do that was the shop issue.

I have company this weekend and indicated he could let me know his schedule later.

But I'm not comfortable with someone with such conflict working on my car. He'd probably just do the work, but who's to say he won't sabotage it with his anger?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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One thing I wasn't clear about - on both the manifold leaks, the people were pointing at the top as the source of the leak. The recommendation above seems to mention examining the lower manifold for leaks and such - I'm wondering if that's overkill because I didn't mention the people seemed to indicate the top?
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,359
1,555
126
I think you are in the right on this mechanic flaking out but at the same time I think you should apologize to him even though it's his fault, just to try to smooth things over.

I cannot offer further speculation on the top vs bottom leak issue more than I already have. You have to trust the person looking for the problem as they tear it down, or at least that's my impression because I couldn't make heads or tails of the vague evidence.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I think you are in the right on this mechanic flaking out but at the same time I think you should apologize to him even though it's his fault, just to try to smooth things over.

I cannot offer further speculation on the top vs bottom leak issue more than I already have. You have to trust the person looking for the problem as they tear it down, or at least that's my impression because I couldn't make heads or tails of the vague evidence.

Ya, I don't know the cars enough to know - the first garage just said 'manifold leak' to which the second guy brought a gasket set until he said he saw a second leak. He showed me that he had squeezed a ~2 inch rubber hose going into the top saying he saw the leak at a point that was on the top part. The first the lower manifold and more testing came up was the suggestion posted here.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
OK I sent him a note saying if he doesn't want to finish the job, ok. This is a bit confusing since I don't know what to tell them to do anymore than I do here. Just trust them is all there is.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Well here's an update.

As a reminder the most common symptom is the car being drive somewhere and then not starting again for 20-30 minutes. Only once has it not started at home.

I had two repairs done, they had no effect.

Then this week, I had the upper and lower manifold, which showed leaking, replaced, and the 'tps' replaced.

Tonight, same problem. I was parked in a space facing up a bit; it wouldn't start in about 40 tries over about an hour.

I called a tow truck, tried it again, no start. I put it in neutral and backed out to flat ground for a tow - it started. Next up: replace the fuel pump.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Let us know when the Fuel Pressure Regulator is replaced, as I suggested before. I am almost 100% sure that is where your trouble is.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Let us know when the Fuel Pressure Regulator is replaced, as I suggested before. I am almost 100% sure that is where your trouble is.

Thanks for the post, I'll discuss that with the mechanic today. But I don't see a fuel pressure regulator mentioned before.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Just talked to the mechanic. He wants $300 parts and labor to replace the fuel pump, or about $70 to replace the fuel pressure regulator when I asked (dammit we're over $1000 even discounted).

He said he doesn't think the behavior being seen is what happens because of the regulator and that the pump is the likely problem. I need to let him know which part to get or both.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Stop throwing parts at the car.

Pay someone to properly DIAGNOSIS it.

I called a well-rated local garage about the intermittent problem and they refused to look at the car unless the problem could be reproduced. I took it to another shop and they said they diagnosed it to three problems with an estimate of $1000, I had those three and more fixed for $750 by independent mechanics and the problem continues.
 
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