Replacing Water Heater, Cost?

[Aikouka]

I got the quotes last night, and I may want to get a more itemized quote. I have a quote for $3949 (after coupon, $4229 without) for the RUC98i. That includes the venting and about 10-15 feet of 1" gas piping, permits, and service valves (the RUC98i comes with them). Based on the list, this figure includes me doing the 3/4" water lines up to the kitchen line, which is about 10 feet from where the water heater would go. (They said there would be no charge if it was that close.)

So, the RUC98i is about $1200 brand new, and considering a mark-up of $300, it would be about $1500 to get it from them. So, I'm looking at the entire installation costing $2400. They told me that it's about $20 per foot of gas pipe, which means that I'm looking at about $200-300 for the pipe work. So that's about $2100 for mounting the unit, and cutting the vent. (Honestly, they'll probably just take out the old crawl space vent that was sealed during my crawl space encapsulation, and use that as it's quite literally a foot from the proposed mounting position and requires no cuts in concrete.)

So, all in all, I would be required to replace the hot water lines covering about 80% of the length of the single-story portion of the house and the cold water lines covering about 40% of that same length. Fortunately, I noticed that the cold water lines from the water softener to the two-story portion are already 3/4", which means they don't need to be touched. I do want to consider replacing the water softener though, since it has been pretty much neglected and is a rather old model. Was considering getting one like this. I might as well do that at the same time. I also have to run the electrical to setup an outlet near the water heater.

You can get something for scrap metal but 3 years ago it was at all time highs. Now not so much. Electrical wire is even less even if copper unless you strip the insulation.

I figured it wouldn't be a ton, but given that I wouldn't have anything else to do with it, it wouldn't be the worst idea as long as it is worth the trip. I could always get a rough idea of weight and then call up a local recycling place.

You don't have a forced hot air or boiler system heating your house? If you had a boiler theres another unlimited hot water tank you can hook up to it that's much simpler and less expensive then those on demand units.

Nope. Honestly, I've never seen a place outside of a business use a boiler. Is that common in homes?

Personally I wouldn't use PEX for my drinking supply. Copper is a lot more I know and a little more involving to run.

Why not? I did a lot of looking into this topic, and I wasn't ever able to find any reason why Pex was bad for potable water supplies.

The hot water tank removal is pretty straight forward. Shut off the supplies, drain the tank, cut and cap the supplies with Shark Bites, remove and cap the exhaust and haul that dead carcass out of there.

Yep, it's pretty (relatively!) simple to do overall, which is why that figure just blew my mind.

 

[spacejamz]

Do most people just replace the water heater after it goes bust? Mine is about 14 years old...have only flushed it a couple of times (last time was probably 6 years ago)...

Or it is better to just be proactive and replace it in the next year or so?

 

[NetWareHead]

I figured it wouldn't be a ton, but given that I wouldn't have anything else to do with it, it wouldn't be the worst idea as long as it is worth the trip. I could always get a rough idea of weight and then call up a local recycling place.

Not sure of who you have near you but copper in my area is accepted and classified by the local scrap metal dealers as #1 and #2 copper. If you have a typical copper water pipe, use a pipe cutter to cut the pure copper from the fittings. Copper with solder on it is considered lower value #2 copper and pure copper is #1

Nope. Honestly, I've never seen a place outside of a business use a boiler. Is that common in homes?

Forced hot air would be a deal breaker in a home. I prefer boiler systems heating hot water baseboard for heat. I dont mind steam systems either. Depends on where you live.

Why not? I did a lot of looking into this topic, and I wasn't ever able to find any reason why Pex was bad for potable water supplies.

My first experience with PEX was the water coming a newly installed line was plastic tasting and took about a month or so to subside and then totally disappear.

Yep, it's pretty (relatively!) simple to do overall, which is why that figure just blew my mind.

None of the plumbers I know use sharkbites, they refuse. So you might be getting quoted for a soldered copper or different type of PEX fittings.

 

[Aikouka]

None of the plumbers I know use sharkbites, they refuse. So you might be getting quoted for a soldered copper or different type of PEX fittings.

I think the company typically uses Pex with crimp style fittings. They did a bit of work before, and the new spigots and laundry water box are attached using the crimped fittings. Although, paying for that "easier method" sort of bugs me a bit. I mean... apart from buying a crimp tool, what's so hard about that? The fittings are actually cheaper than the Sharkbite fittings.

On that note, what don't they like about Sharkbite? Is it the cost? From what I could tell, the guy giving me the quote suggested that they would probably use crimped Pex for most free-standing runs and sweated copper for any hidden runs. The latter would pretty much just be cleaning up the water runs in the laundry room. Right now, the 3/4" hot goes from the water heater into the wall to a T where one side goes upstairs and the other side goes into the crawl space. The latter then sizes down to a 1/2" copper line pretty much right after entering the crawl space. So, they would be cleaning up the T.

Although, the one thing that always bugs me about this company is that they limit their scope of work to exclude most clean up stuff. In other words, if they cut into the wall to clean up the pipes, they won't do any patch work to fix it.

 

[NetWareHead]

Not to start a debate about sharkbites but why even bother calling a plumber if you can do it yourself with a sharkbite? Its like calling a plumber to install a sink and he uses a rubber p-trap and an accordion tail piece as his connections. Plumbers have all the gear needed to sweat copper pipe and if you work with pex you have the needed fittings so why use a sharkbite if you are a pro?

Regarding patching, my plumber charges alot per hour. I want him to do plumbing only, not waste my money doing drywall repair. I know cheaper guys for drywall and guys that do drywall everyday so they have way more practice. Hell I dont even want my plumber cleaning/vacuuming etc.. after himself. As soon as the job is done, off the clock.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Pex is meant for potable water. Pretty much all new plumbing is going to that now. I would personally run copper for the hot water, at least the general area near the tank as the water will be at it's hottest there but even then I imagine it's rated for a high enough temp. But other than that it's fine and no need to stick to copper.

As for sharkbite they're nice for a few joints, or to go from one type of pipe to the other as they are compatible with even copper, but I personally prefer the more "permanent" methods if I'm doing a lot of joints. I bought the crimp tool and use the crimp ring pex system.

I just got a quote for just the gas line and venting (was probably going to do venting myself if I DIY) and it's $1,200. So even that part is quite expensive it seems.

 

[paperfist]

I got the quotes last night, and I may want to get a more itemized quote. I have a quote for $3949 (after coupon, $4229 without) for the RUC98i. That includes the venting and about 10-15 feet of 1" gas piping, permits, and service valves (the RUC98i comes with them). Based on the list, this figure includes me doing the 3/4" water lines up to the kitchen line, which is about 10 feet from where the water heater would go. (They said there would be no charge if it was that close.)

So, the RUC98i is about $1200 brand new, and considering a mark-up of $300, it would be about $1500 to get it from them. So, I'm looking at the entire installation costing $2400. They told me that it's about $20 per foot of gas pipe, which means that I'm looking at about $200-300 for the pipe work. So that's about $2100 for mounting the unit, and cutting the vent. (Honestly, they'll probably just take out the old crawl space vent that was sealed during my crawl space encapsulation, and use that as it's quite literally a foot from the proposed mounting position and requires no cuts in concrete.)

So, all in all, I would be required to replace the hot water lines covering about 80% of the length of the single-story portion of the house and the cold water lines covering about 40% of that same length. Fortunately, I noticed that the cold water lines from the water softener to the two-story portion are already 3/4", which means they don't need to be touched. I do want to consider replacing the water softener though, since it has been pretty much neglected and is a rather old model. Was considering getting one like this. I might as well do that at the same time. I also have to run the electrical to setup an outlet near the water heater.



I figured it wouldn't be a ton, but given that I wouldn't have anything else to do with it, it wouldn't be the worst idea as long as it is worth the trip. I could always get a rough idea of weight and then call up a local recycling place.



Nope. Honestly, I've never seen a place outside of a business use a boiler. Is that common in homes?



Why not? I did a lot of looking into this topic, and I wasn't ever able to find any reason why Pex was bad for potable water supplies.



Yep, it's pretty (relatively!) simple to do overall, which is why that figure just blew my mind.

In the NE anyway boilers and radiators are pretty common.

I don't have any scientific evidence (just never looked it up), but it's just my personal preference on PEX. I don't want my drinking water sitting in plastic all day with the the kinds of temperature fluctuations it will go through.

Copper has stood the test of time. I know it's expensive, but I'd take it over PEX any day.

There's another kind of solder less system a friend of mine was showing me the other day. I can't remember what it's called, but the fittings have gasket seals built in and the crimping tool was around $1500.00. I don't recall the fittings being inexpensive either. He said the seals has something like a 100 year warranty against leaks.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I've actually seen some kind of paste that can be used to bond copper without soldering, but if you're going to use copper, then solder it the proper way imo. If you're using copper for the sake of it being tried and tested then install it the way that is tried and tested. I still use copper in some instances, usually if I need to do a very minor change to the existing copper, then there's no sense in having a small section of pex.

 

[Aikouka]

Not to start a debate about sharkbites but why even bother calling a plumber if you can do it yourself with a sharkbite?

I agree with you. I thought you were suggesting that professionals think Sharkbite fittings aren't good, which is why they don't use them. Now, it seems like you're saying there's just no point in them using the fittings since they just cost more and don't provide as much of a benefit to a professional who is adept at sweating or crimping.

Regarding patching, my plumber charges alot per hour. I want him to do plumbing only, not waste my money doing drywall repair. I know cheaper guys for drywall and guys that do drywall everyday so they have way more practice. Hell I dont even want my plumber cleaning/vacuuming etc.. after himself. As soon as the job is done, off the clock.

The people that I deal with all charge by the job not the hour. Albeit, static job costs are typically setup based upon assumed labor times, and adding anything else to that would increase the time. I think it just bugs me, because I get this feeling like the installers are looking to get things done as fast as possible regardless of how it looks. Yes, I want something functional, but I also don't want it looking like garbage.

An example of that is where they replaced my laundry room's water box. The laundry room is against the crawl space, and the lower half of the wall is cinder block with 1x4 laid against it to hold the drywall. They screwed the water box directly on top of the drywall, and knocked out a huge hole into the cinder block just to add a new drain line. Their means of fixing this mess was simply to run white tape over the top of the hole! It looks like a quick and dirty job that some novice homeowner would do. I'm tempted to see what I can do to fix this, as if I ever want to sell the place, that mess won't fly with most buyers.

Another example is how I'm finding signs of poor workmanship in the crawl space vapor barrier installation. One thing that really pisses me off is that I specifically asked prior to installation whether I need to ensure that there are no rocks or anything down there. I was told that anything would be removed, and they maybe removed a few stray pieces of cinder block. Now, I've got rocks jutting out of the ground and I've already got quarter-sized holes forming in my 10 mil vapor barrier that's not even a year old! If they were just honest with me, I would've removed the rocks myself!

I just got a quote for just the gas line and venting (was probably going to do venting myself if I DIY) and it's $1,200. So even that part is quite expensive it seems.

Out of curiosity, I was reading an install manual for the RUR98i, and the worst parts seem to be those two. Albeit, the hardest part of the venting seems to be drilling the 3"+ hole in concrete: 2x 3" for normal piping, 1x 4.5" for concentric venting.

It just makes me cringe a bit that I'm pretty much competent enough to install an electric tankless water heater (still a little squeamish about hooking stuff up to the service panel), but gas has a few parts that might give me some trouble. Consequently, while the latter is arguably better, it will cost me considerably more (~$600 for electric, ~$4000 for gas).

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I happen to have a serious drill that will make cinder block or brick feel like butter so the vent is not an issue for me, but that is generally going to be the hardest part I'd say. That and the fact that you need special type of PVC and not just whatever you get at the hardware store. Though I'd have to check and the hardware store may have that type of PVC as well. I don't get why ABS is not good enough, when furnaces have used it for years. If I was installing the gas too I'd probably just stick with the ABS, but if I hire someone then I better use whatever new code says so they don't give me issues. Ex: they may be unwilling to connect the gas if the install is not 100% to code.

 

[zinfamous]

It'll never be obsolete given the cost difference. Gas will likely always be cheaper.

and for cooking purposes. Cooking without gas is crap.

 

[Aikouka]

Yeah I happen to have a serious drill that will make cinder block or brick feel like butter so the vent is not an issue for me

What are you using? I have a hammer drill, but my largest bit is only 1". I assume you'd have to make multiple holes and chisel it out?

and for cooking purposes. Cooking without gas is crap.

I went to a gas stove, and my only complaint is that the residual heat from the flames also heats up my handles a bit. I end up having to use oven mitts when handling anything but a pot. (Pot handles are far enough away that they aren't affected.) Other than that, it's fine. Oh, and keeping a black (black stainless steel) stove clean is a real pain.

 

[Red Squirrel]

What are you using? I have a hammer drill, but my largest bit is only 1". I assume you'd have to make multiple holes and chisel it out?

I have a Bosch Bulldog, SDS drill which packs a nice punch compared to a standard hammer drill. The SDS bits are nice since they lock in place while standard bits will start to rotate freely inside from all the hammering and banging etc. Even the hex ones will wear out the hex part after a while. And yeah I just drill a bunch of holes and chizel out. Still some work, but not as bad as the first time when I tried to use a standard hammer drill. For the joist portion inside the house I usually use a hole saw. Usually I start with that part, then drill a hole through the brick from inside, then finish the rest outside. If your house is siding you won't even need to go through masonry, as the foundation wall should stop right below that section, assuming you want to vent it through the rim joist. (which is typical I think)[/QUOTE]

 

[zinfamous]

I went to a gas stove, and my only complaint is that the residual heat from the flames also heats up my handles a bit. I end up having to use oven mitts when handling anything but a pot. (Pot handles are far enough away that they aren't affected.) Other than that, it's fine. Oh, and keeping a black (black stainless steel) stove clean is a real pain.

yeah, that is really annoying.

Also, you like stir fry? Try using a wok on an electric burner, and good luck using one of these bad boys:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/05/...ur-home-burner-into-a-wok-range-solution.html

 

[Aikouka]

I have a Bosch Bulldog, SDS drill which packs a nice punch compared to a standard hammer drill.

Ahh, okay. I've got a Makita SDS hammer drill, and a few masonry bits for it. That's what I used for drilling from the crawlspace to the outside for running RG6 lines and from the crawlspace to the inside for running all the lines into my server closet.

Although, what I'm wondering is what sort of rules they have for reusing existing holes. When my crawlspace was encapsulated, they covered up the vents with foam. So, while the holes aren't useful, they still exist. I know that the installers suggested placing one within a few feet of a covered vent, so I wonder if I could use that vent. The vent is 15.5" wide by 7.5" tall, so it's certainly big enough to fit two 3" PVC pipes. Would I just need to remove the foam (I've seen flammable warnings on the foam insulation) and install flashing?

yeah, that is really annoying.

Also, you like stir fry? Try using a wok on an electric burner, and good luck using one of these bad boys:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/05/...ur-home-burner-into-a-wok-range-solution.html

I think my sister told me that she uses a wok on an electric burner, but that's because she has a flat-bottomed wok. To be honest, I would consider an induction range, but they're so rare... and expensive.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I would definitely try to reuse or enlarge the existing holes if they're in the same general area you want. Means less holes to punch in existing construction.

 

[zinfamous]

I think my sister told me that she uses a wok on an electric burner, but that's because she has a flat-bottomed wok. To be honest, I would consider an induction range, but they're so rare... and expensive.

I only have a flat-bottom wok (non-stick!) and use it on gas. YOLO!

 

[NetWareHead]

I agree with you. I thought you were suggesting that professionals think Sharkbite fittings aren't good, which is why they don't use them. Now, it seems like you're saying there's just no point in them using the fittings since they just cost more and don't provide as much of a benefit to a professional who is adept at sweating or crimping.

According to my plumber, he has had many service calls in the last few years related to leaking sharkbite fittings. Saw him this weekend and he gave me his opinion on them. He has had to redo entire bathrooms kitchen and laundry rooms where they were buried in walls. My guy refuses to use them; they dont give him the comfortable feeling leaving a job and in his opinion they have homeowner-home depot written all over them.

 

[MongGrel]

I would not put sharkbites buried in a wall myself, but my tank is pretty much easy access.

 

[Aikouka]

I was thinking about it earlier, and doing a bit of math, and I wonder if my water heater is actually fine... sort of. I first noticed the loss of heat after my PRV was replaced, which significantly increased my water pressure. I think I was at 35 psi and went up to 70, or something like that. Simply turning the shower to the exact same setting felt like I had a bunch of intense water jets hitting me. I've only got a 40 gallon water heater, which means at rates of 1.5GPM and 2.0GPM, I'd use up the entire tank in 26:40 and 20:00 respectively. The problem itself was always more pronounced on the weekends where I'd have time to take longer showers. Although, while my water heater probably isn't broken, it still isn't lasting very long. However, since it isn't broken, that means I can probably not worry too much about fixing it in the very near future.

According to my plumber, he has had many service calls in the last few years related to leaking sharkbite fittings. Saw him this weekend and he gave me his opinion on them. He has had to redo entire bathrooms kitchen and laundry rooms where they were buried in walls. My guy refuses to use them; they dont give him the comfortable feeling leaving a job and in his opinion they have homeowner-home depot written all over them.

I'd be curious to see the installations that leaked. When I was doing research, one of the big points about the Sharkbite fittings is that if you're putting them in a retrofit situation, you have to be careful to clean up the pipe and remove any burs from the cut edges. I wonder if the people with leaks didn't do this properly? So, I take it that your plumber prefers crimp fittings when working with Pex?

 

[paperfist]

I only have 4 shark bite fittings in my house where I was too lazy to solder caps onto 4 hot/cold terminations. I believe they are 4 years old now and no indication of leaks. Certainly too small of a sample size to call it scientific.

No offense to the plumber, but his bread and butter comes from soldering fittings which is beyond the reach of most home owners. Shark bite fittings are something a homeowner can buy at the local big box store and can eliminate the need for a plumber.

It's kind of funny though, at least where I live you're not supposed to do any plumbing work without a licensed plumber. Reminds me of the ticket I just got for a license plate bracket obstructing the plate numbers. It's not illegal to sell those... yada yada yada. but it's illegal to use them.

 

[Exterous]

According to my plumber, he has had many service calls in the last few years related to leaking sharkbite fittings. Saw him this weekend and he gave me his opinion on them. He has had to redo entire bathrooms kitchen and laundry rooms where they were buried in walls. My guy refuses to use them; they dont give him the comfortable feeling leaving a job and in his opinion they have homeowner-home depot written all over them.

A good friend of mine owns a plumbing and water damage remediation company and uses sharkbite fittings in his own home. I talked to him about doing that in my basement with some work I needed to do that would be covered up and he told me he'd use them without hesitation. While he's seen them leak they were leaking from improper installation as opposed to issues with the fittings themselves. They are supposed to be idiot proof but lots of people still fail at using them anyway

 

[NutBucket]

I agree. Everything in life is about proper prep. If you're sweating connections they'd better be clean and thoroughly fluxed. And you need to de-burr too. Burrs cause turbulence which can wear holes in pipes. Basically, either method is fine with proper prep.

 

[NetWareHead]

I was thinking about it earlier, and doing a bit of math, and I wonder if my water heater is actually fine... sort of. I first noticed the loss of heat after my PRV was replaced, which significantly increased my water pressure. I think I was at 35 psi and went up to 70, or something like that. Simply turning the shower to the exact same setting felt like I had a bunch of intense water jets hitting me. I've only got a 40 gallon water heater, which means at rates of 1.5GPM and 2.0GPM, I'd use up the entire tank in 26:40 and 20:00 respectively. The problem itself was always more pronounced on the weekends where I'd have time to take longer showers. Although, while my water heater probably isn't broken, it still isn't lasting very long. However, since it isn't broken, that means I can probably not worry too much about fixing it in the very near future.

The issue with your math is it fails to take into account that the WH would begin heating the water well before it totally exhausted the supply in the tank. So you do have a time extension there somewhere. Also most people dont draw solely from the hot water faucet when showering. I like to mix a comfortable temperature at the shower so the draw is not 100% hot water. And finally, depending on the age of your current WH install, you might have a mixing valve. And if not, its code in many municipalities to install one when upgrading to a new WH. Combination of factors: needing to set the WH temp high enough to prevent growth of legionnaires disease bacteria inside the tank and temperature safety. The mixing valve mixes hot and cold water and delivers a safe temp to prevent scalding. These factors extend, in some cases considerably, the hot water supply.

I set my wh to very hot (mixing valve installed) and I have enough hot water for an entire family worth of showers, dishes, laundry without needing to spend on a tankless. I have a 45 gallon HTP superstor. My tank is well insulated, has a documented loss of half a degree per hour, cheaper than a tankless and comes with a lifetime warranty; something I could not find in any tankless I looked at.

I'd be curious to see the installations that leaked. When I was doing research, one of the big points about the Sharkbite fittings is that if you're putting them in a retrofit situation, you have to be careful to clean up the pipe and remove any burs from the cut edges. I wonder if the people with leaks didn't do this properly? So, I take it that your plumber prefers crimp fittings when working with Pex?

He uses exclusively uponor pex tubing with the expansion rings that permit attachment to fittings. You need a specific expander tool to stretch the rings. Like this: http://www.uponor-usa.com/~/media/uponor/blog/pex 101 blog.ashx and the tool: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lCTdAEiRoHM/hqdefault.jpg

 

[Aikouka]

The issue with your math is it fails to take into account that the WH would begin heating the water well before it totally exhausted the supply in the tank.

...

I set my wh to very hot (mixing valve installed) and I have enough hot water for an entire family worth of showers, dishes, laundry without needing to spend on a tankless. I have a 45 gallon HTP superstor. My tank is well insulated, has a documented loss of half a degree per hour, cheaper than a tankless and comes with a lifetime warranty; something I could not find in any tankless I looked at.

I'm not sure what temperature mine is set to, but I definitely don't have a mixing valve... or at least not one that's visible to me. I just don't know if it's a dip tube issue or something else. I know I've got limestone in my water as I see it whenever I use the dishwasher (my pots and pans have a nice white film over them). The previous owners never took care of the water softener, which isn't surprising given how many things they let fall into disrepair. So, maybe what I should be doing is getting that thing working again (I'm thinking about just buying a newer, more efficient one), and then seeing if I can clean it out. Man, there are so many things to learn about....

That does sound like a nifty water heater though. I think the only negative for me is that I'd really like to get my water heater a bit more out of the way. Washers and dryers have kind of gotten a bit bigger over the years, and the "laundry area" is just too small with the two large appliances and the water heater in there. I've actually debated removing the shower from the adjacent bathroom (I've never used it), and walling off that area to create a space for stacking the washer and dryer. The best part is that given that it's a shower, I've already got water to the area and a drain for removing water.

He uses exclusively uponor pex tubing with the expansion rings that permit attachment to fittings. You need a specific expander tool to stretch the rings. Like this: http://www.uponor-usa.com/~/media/uponor/blog/pex 101 blog.ashx and the tool: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lCTdAEiRoHM/hqdefault.jpg

Oh, that's pretty cool looking. Is it more reliable than the crimp rings?