Report: Mazda RX-7 Returns for 2017 with 450-hp Turbo Rotary

[Wingznut]

My c7 begs to differ. You just mount the engine as far back as possible and move the transmission to the rear.

Of course, I was talking about the RX-8 chassis. Your C7 is an absolutely fantastic car, but also a very different class of car, in both price and performance.

 

[KentState]

Of course, I was talking about the RX-8 chassis. Your C7 is an absolutely fantastic car, but also a very different class of car, in both price and performance.

With sticker on the outgoing RX-8, I would venture to say anything new would be very close to C7 price.

 

[smackababy]

Of course, I was talking about the RX-8 chassis. Your C7 is an absolutely fantastic car, but also a very different class of car, in both price and performance.

The problem is people continue to talk about the "hp per lb" metric, as if the RX-8 had one that was great. At the 2,800lb or so curb weight, with only 232hp, it ain't winning over quite a few sports cars priced around that. The 370z has around 300lbs and 100+ more HP more than that, and is in similar price range. Although, it is around the 54/46 distribution range.

 

[Throckmorton]

Another Mazda car ruined by a dead end engine.

I think there's value in alternative engine technologies being used and continually developed

Heck, many would say the I6 engine is a dead end since a V6 is so much more "practical" but thank goodness BMW is still building them

 

[smackababy]

I think there's value in alternative engine technologies being used and continually developed

Heck, many would say the I6 engine is a dead end since a V6 is so much more "practical" but thank goodness BMW is still building them

I think the idea of the Wankel engine was a good one, but it just wasn't there from a practical standpoint. I am all for any alternatives to the current, awfully inefficient 4 stroke ICE, I just don't think it is the Wankel (at least, not in it's current state).

 

[senseamp]

I think there's value in alternative engine technologies being used and continually developed

Heck, many would say the I6 engine is a dead end since a V6 is so much more "practical" but thank goodness BMW is still building them

Not if the engine tech is a fundamentally inefficient dead end. There is also an opportunity cost, because those R&D dollars could have been used for something more productive. And it creates negative value for the customers, who are stuck with higher maintenance costs and fuel consumption.

 

[Wingznut]

The problem is people continue to talk about the "hp per lb" metric...

How about HP per liter... The Renesis Rotary has 180 hp/L. How many production engines can make that claim? To put it in perspective, a Mustang GT would have to have 900hp to match. The C7 would have to top 1100hp.

I know, some will never appreciate the rotary. But to bring it back to the original post, perhaps 450ish hp would affect some perspective.

 

[Ferzerp]

How about HP per liter...

What about it? It's a meaningless metric. It doesn't do any of the following.

1) Give indication of engine size/weight
2) Give indication of engine performance
3) Give indication of engine efficiency

It tells you absolutely nothing that you would care about regarding the engine at all. I would come up with an analogous metric for something else, but I truly can't think of any that are as meaningless. Maybe screen area per button on my laptop. It's one of those specious metrics that appears useful to someone who doesn't really understand engines, but is actually meaningless by itself.

 

[senseamp]

HP/L of displacement is the most meaningless metric ever invented.
When it comes HP/L of gas, that's another story, and the rotary flunks it.

 

[MongGrel]

It's not fancy, but I still like my little 2006 Mazda 3 Hatchback.

I see Mazda's all over the place locally here, considering they are the 15th largest company they seem popular in Tampa Bay at least.

Zoom-Zoom.

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Motorsport

See also: Mazdaspeed
In the racing world, Mazda has had substantial success with both its signature Wankel-engine cars (in two-rotor, three-rotor, and four-rotor forms) as well as its piston-engine models. Mazda vehicles and engines compete in a wide variety of disciplines and series around the world. More Mazdas are raced every week than any other car brand[citation needed] (a large part of this statement speaks to the success of the MX-5/Miata and its widespread embrace by grassroots motorsports). As of 2014, Mazda remains the only Japanese automaker to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans overall.
International competition

Mazda's competition debut was on October 20, 1968 when two Mazda Cosmo Sport 110S coupes entered the 84 hour Marathon de la Route ultra-endurance race at the Nürburgring, one finishing in fourth place and the other breaking an axle after 81 hours.[29] The next year, Mazda raced Mazda Familia R100 M10A coupes. After winning the Singapore Grand Prix in April 1969 and coming in fifth and sixth in the Spa 24 Hours (beaten only by Porsche 911s), on October 19, 1969, Mazda again entered the 84 hour Nürburgring race with four Familias. Only one of these finished, taking fifth place.
The first racing victory by a Wankel-engined car in the United States was in 1973, when Pat Bedard won an IMSA RS race at Lime Rock Park in a Mazda RX-2.[29]
In 1976, Ray Walle, owner of Z&W Mazda, drove a Cosmo (Mazda RX-5) from the dealership in Princeton, New Jersey, to Daytona, won the Touring Class Under 2.5 Liters at the 24 Hours of Daytona, and drove the car back to New Jersey. The Cosmo placed 18th overall in a field of 72. The only modifications were racing brake pads, exhaust, and safety equipment.[30]
After substantial successes by the Mazda RX-2 and Mazda RX-3, the Mazda RX-7 has won more IMSA races in its class than any other model of automobile, with its hundredth victory on September 2, 1990. Following that, the RX-7 won its class in the IMSA 24 Hours of Daytona race ten years in a row, starting in 1982. The RX-7 won the IMSA Grand Touring Under Two Liter (GTU) championship each year from 1980 through 1987, inclusive.

The Mazda 787B, winner of the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans race


In 1991, a four-rotor Mazda 787B (2622 cc actual, rated by FIA formula at 4708 cc) won the 24 Hours of Le Mans auto race outright. The 787B's triumph remains unparalleled, as it remains the only non-piston-engined car ever to win at Le Mans, and Mazda is still the only Japanese marque to have won overall at Le Mans – ironically[editorializing] after Nissan had closed down its World Sportscar Championship programme and Toyota had opted to take a sabbatical for most of 1991 in order to develop its 3.5-litre TS010. This led to a ban on rotary engines in the Le Mans race starting in 1992, which has since been rescinded. After the 1991 race, the winning engine was publicly dismantled for internal examination, which demonstrated that despite 24 hours of extremely hard use it had accumulated very little wear.
The Le Mans win in 1991 followed a decade of class wins from other Mazda prototypes, including the 757 and 767. The Sigma MC74 powered by a Mazda 12A engine was the first engine and team from outside Western Europe or the United States to finish the entire 24 hours of the Le Mans race, in 1974. Mazda is also the most reliable finisher at Le Mans (with the exception of Honda, which has entered only three cars in only one year), with 67% of entries finishing. Mazda will return to prototype racing in 2005 with the introduction of the Courage C65 LMP2 car at the American Le Mans Series race at Road Atlanta. This prototype racer uses the Renesis Wankel from the RX-8.
Mazdas have also enjoyed substantial success in World Land Speed competition, SCCA competition, drag racing, pro rally competition (the Familia appeared in the WRC several times during the late '80s and early '90s), the One Lap of America race (winning SUV & truck in a MazdaSpeed5), and other venues. Wankel engines have been banned for some time from international Formula One racing,[citation needed] as well as from United States midget racing, after Gene Angelillo won the North East Midget Racing Association championship in 1985 with a car powered by a 13B engine, and again in 1986 in a car powered by a 12A engine.
Spec series

The Cooper Tires Atlantic Championship powered by Mazda is a North American open wheel racing series. It is the top level of the MAZDASPEED ladder, a driver development program which rewards season winners of one level with automatic rides at the next level. Since 2006, the Atlantic Championship has been run exclusively with Swift 016.a chassis powered by Mazda-Cosworth MZR 2300 cc (2.3L) DOHC inline-4 engines producing 300 bhp (224 kW). The cars are capable of speeds in excess of 175 mph (282 km/h).[31]
Formula Mazda Racing features open wheel race cars with Mazda engines, adaptable to both oval tracks and road courses, on several levels of competition. Since 1991, the professionally organized Star Mazda Series has been the most popular format for sponsors, spectators, and upward bound drivers. It is the second-highest level on the aforementioned MAZDASPEED driver development ladder. Engines for the Star Mazda series are all built by one engine builder, certified to produce the prescribed power, and sealed to discourage tampering. They are in a relatively mild state of racing tune, so that they are extremely reliable and can go years between motor rebuilds.
Spec Miata has become one of the most popular and most affordable road racing classes in North America. The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.
Spec RX7 is also a popular club racing class primarily due to the availability of first generation RX7 cars and the low startup cost. Spec RX7 (SRX7) in some regions is noted as one of the most cost effective sports car classes.

 

[Wuzup101]

I'd definitely be interested in this... as long as they dropped the rotary part...

 

[ElFenix]

As an aside, this is EXACTLY what the Japanese car companies need to do. They are way to conservative and need to put out some just ridiculous cars. Look at the press the 700hp Challenger Hellcat/Charger xxx are getting. They are crazy, and maybe even a little impractical, but somewhat affordable.

I know the 90s was the 'heyday' of JDM performance cars, but look at the risks they took:
3000GT
Supra
00ZX-TT
RX-7
GT-R(s)
NSX

These are just a few and really inspired a lot of other cars from the same company as some of the tech trickled down. Those Halo cars got people excited about Japanese car companies. They don't need to be big money-makers if they spurn other sales. If they are not careful, they will lose all their faithful audience to Korean/US/Euro makers as they run out of patience for a new 'exiting' vehicle.

the LS400 got more people more excited about japanese car companies (well, toyota) and trickled down into millions of people paying an extra 10 grand for a camry or a highlander. much more effective than a sports car.

 

[Abius]

I purchased a 2010 RX8 R3 last Tuesday with 4800 KM on the odometer.

I have always loved the car. My ex's father back in the day purchased one, Ive loved the look since then. And now, I can say I adore the drive.

I was torn between buying a BRZ/FRS, and the RX8. They ended up being the same amount per month to finance either car (RX8 cheaper, for less time). Even though the BRZ would have had a bumper to bumper warranty, better mileage, praised as sports car of the years, I chose the RX8.

And I can say I am very happy with my purchase.

I love the car, fun to drive, revs like crazy (coming from driving a Honda, was nice to be able to stay in the high revs), the handling. And I havn't even pushed it to its limits.

We all have our tastes, and what we want out of our cars. For me, handling and enjoying the car >>>>>>> crazy horse power, fast in a straight line, but thats personal to me.

Even with all the "drawbacks" of the rotary, the enjoyment of the car as a whole lets me turn a blind eye to the negatives of the engine.

All I can say, THE SOUND, ZOOM ZOOM

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I
Because rotary aficionados will not "automatically reject" it. This would not be a car designed for the masses.

The rotary engine is a beautiful thing. If you've never driven one, then you wouldn't understand.

Check out Top Gear's review of the RX-8 on YouTube.

Mazda RX8 car review - Top Gear - BBC autos: http://youtu.be/g5FNjyaLfC8

So mazda is supposed to build cars for "aficionados"? Seems like every time Mazda tries they can't sell enough of them to justify the costs.

I've driven every generation of rx7/8 since the very beginning. Was racing with my 280z vs buddies RX-7 way back 20+ years ago. The RX7 TT of the late 90's was, IMHO, the best of breed. Fantastic car with a finicky engine. When Mazda failed to deliver a turbo RX8 it was game over.

 

[dawheat]

Mazda rotary is hands-down the smoothest, highest revving engine I've ever experienced. It really seemed like the tach had to be wrong, so effortless and drama-free were the RPMs. They will always have some fuel efficiency and high HC issues due to the large surface area of the combustion 'chamber,' but gutless they are not, once you figure out HP per liter, and more importantly for a sports car, HP per pound. It well could be that material science has helped mitigate some of the worst shortcomings of the rotary. If so, that would be sweet. I can't help but think the haters don't have extensive real-world experience with what really is a remarkable design.

I test drove the RX-8 quite a bit back in the first couple years it was out when I had a S2000. I liked the looks (inside and out) and the added practicality - I even liked the doors.

But the engine really was a downer - the S2000 is hardly a fast car (though it wasn't so outgunned back in 2004), but I recall being surprised by the RX-8. Revving it to redline made the noise increase and it was a good sound, but the power never 'picked up'. It felt extremely linear which would be ok if the slope had been steep, but it felt mediocre throughout the entire power band.

I get the history of the rotary, but at least in the RX-8, felt inferior to a good, traditional engine.

 

[crashtech]

The one I remember driving around that time had a 6-speed manual and felt pretty fast, though I don't know which model it was. The auto trans one was a dog, though. Most of my experience with rotaries is from way before that, though. If you've done engine swap work you would appreciate the amount of power made from such a compact little engine.

 

[Leyawiin]

Dad had the original 1979 RX-7. It wasn't fast (but somewhat "quick" for the time). It was just so darn smooth and handled so well given the skinny tires of the day. Plus it looked great. I wish Mazda would just make something along those lines. Affordable, pretty, fun. Not every car has to be over-the-top with horsepower to be entertaining. Even a 100 HP in a lightweight, balanced, rotary engine sports car (like the original) can be a blast if its done right.

 

[mirageracerx]

i hope this is true...dear internet gods, let this be true.

 

[smackababy]

Dad had the original 1979 RX-7. It wasn't fast (but somewhat "quick" for the time). It was just so darn smooth and handled so well given the skinny tires of the day. Plus it looked great. I wish Mazda would just make something along those lines. Affordable, pretty, fun. Not every car has to be over-the-top with horsepower to be entertaining. Even a 100 HP in a lightweight, balanced, rotary engine sports car (like the original) can be a blast if its done right.

I agree, to a point. I don't think a 100hp car would cut it as any type of sports car, considering the safety regulations and common amenities are going to make the car weigh a metric ton, at the very best. A 167hp Miata is over $20k base, so cheap ain't happening either. =(

 

[LennyZ]

If they make a 3 or 4 rotor motor i'm in!

 

[LennyZ]

For all the Rotary haters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coXB3xd6VK8

 

[darom]

Passing smog here in CA was a bitch when I owned a 1986 n/a and a 1988 TT model. Judging by the abundance of 'failed smog' posts, RX-8 has the same issues as earlier models.

On a side note, I wish Mazda would bring their turbo diesel powered cars faster to the States.

 

[phucheneh]

If a piston engine required piston rings that were not in constant contact with the cylinder walls, it would be a dumb idea, too. But it doesn't. And it works well.

Rotaries are dumb and the people defending them here are fanboys. Sorry. The foremost problem is that there does not exist a way to make a durable, effective, long-lived apex seal; a.k.a. the design is fundamentally flawed. They will always be fragile and inefficient. Quit defending them.

edit: And I'm not saying that sealing a combustion chamber that appears and disappears is the only problem. Not by a long shot. Rotary wankers will say 'omg, piston engines are teh dumb, why convert linear motion to rotational?! Rotary makes all teh sense!'

Right, which is why your 200hp engine gets 20 miles per gallon and burns oil like a two-stroke, right?

A cylinder with a hemispherical, pentroof, or similar combustion chamber, spark plug in the middle, ect...all the things we see in modern engines...that's an efficient design. It lacks the inherently uneven mixture, uneven heat distribution, ect of the rotary.

 

[Wingznut]

Rotaries are dumb and the people defending them here are fanboys.

What you fail to understand is how they drive. Don't believe us? Watch the Top Gear video linked previously. Don't believe Jeremy Clarkson, watch any of the other dozens of RX-8 reviews on YouTube. Still don't believe any of those? Oh well.

 

[yottabit]

I'm guessing the next time (if) we see a rotary from Mazda again it will probably be in a hybrid

I remember reading a while back about them working on an experimental next gen rotary, for a non-direct drive hybrid car (what the Volt was originally marketed to be)

Claiming that a lot of the problems of the rotary engine (poor fuel consumption, oil consumption) aren't problems if it's tuned around a constant RPM/load scenario, and there the light weight and small package would really shine for recharging some batteries

Don't forget how much the recall hurt the RX-8 brand... handing out new engines like candy. I definitely think FI is the way to go for Mazda but they would have to do some legwork to win over people who got screwed by the RX-8