Reports of an active shooter in San Bernadino

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Mar 11, 2004
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You jest, but they started an uprising/rebellion that continues, didn't they? Sure, a lot of the rebels are ISIS, but there's that. Our own government was inspired to arm them with better equipment to counter Assad's tanks and bombs and chemical weapons and such.

That's not really how it happened. Small groups with guns is not what did anything about Assad's forces (and in fact that was partly what caused chaos is those groups got usurped by extremist groups and everything devolved into chaos). They didn't make any inroads until we started getting serious about bombing, providing anti-tank weapons, military training, and other supplies, and even then they basically only made progress because of Assad's military having a lot of defections and having their power held in check (as in if they'd continued rampant use of chemical weapons we would have started bombing the hell out of Assad and his forces like how we went after Ghaddafi and Saddam Hussein). That's even what triggered Russia getting involved is Assad was starting to weaken and they knew he'd get desperate and then would probably resort to whatever he could which would then trigger the U.S. and NATO to take his regime out using direct military means. Plus there's those millions of people who fled Syria so Assad's forces simply had less people to brutalize. There's a couple of good reasons why Assad didn't go after ISIS, and one of them is because ISIS, who has a lot of military hardware they got from conquest in Iraq, would have put up enough of a fight that his regime could have lost to them.

Small arms accomplished little to nothing in the overall Syrian conflict. Same with Afghanistan when the USSR invaded. They were getting their asses kicked (machine guns weren't terribly effective against tanks and Hind-Ds) until we started providing missiles. And our military is much stronger against missiles (and IEDs now too) than Assad and the 80s Soviet Union hardware.

The U.S. military would bitchslap the everloving fuck out of these militia groups if they had any actual intention of oppressing and quelling them. Even if they had fully automatic weapons and very probably even stuff like anti-tank/anti-helicopter missiles. They wouldn't even need to put boots on the ground to do it either. Effectively the only way those groups would realistically have a chance is if they resorted to ISIS tactics in taking over civilian population centers and effectively taking people hostage and the military not willing to suffer the collateral damage to eradicate them. At that point, those groups would be outright terrorists, so any revolution they were wanting to achieve would be lost as they attempt to exert their own form of oppression (they're not going to just let the people flee, as that will leave just them there, and then the U.S. could justify the casualties and would wipe them out, they're sure as shit not going to let them open up shop and function as a separate entity on American soil).

Our best defense against a tyrannical government is knowledge and understanding and preventing it from occurring. I get that people think gun rights is key to that, but I frankly don't. Not at the individual level. I absolutely take issue with various government things (NSA's overreach, some of the law enforcement things they've been doing via the FBI, police corruption) that absolutely is in the form of oppression, but I also know that having a gun will do nothing about those things and the best thing is to try to bring calm rational discussion and work to get the bought off crony politicians out of office and some of the, in my opinion, borderline insane people from some of the agencies that could dictate things (CIA, FBI, NSA). Cut back on the rhetoric and fear, get serious about making meaningful reforms.

The other key thing is for our states to maintain their militias that use real military units and hardware. That is the well regulated militia intended with the 2nd Amendment.

However I'd say the most important thing is for us to prevent a division like that from occurring in the first place. We've been through worse stuff than what people are so contentious and divisive about these days.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
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<snip>
Take for instance military style "assault rifles", where people act like "well duh its illegal to have full auto ones" like they don't exist but you also openly admit it is quite easy to convert them to that, and you don't see that as enabling full auto versions with minor hassle. So going to back to your "availability" argument, if the availability of means to convert widely available semi-auto guns to full auto is also widespread, then everything is fine, because directly getting full auto versions is controlled. You really don't see how people can view that as a major loophole that makes the full auto ban effectively worthless and so they see the only way to remedy that is to also ban the weapons that are typically converted? But, then it being legal or not doesn't matter you say, so see the laws are pointless. Then why have any laws at all? Where are the lines that you draw? Or do you not draw any at all?
<snip>

Can you cite any case of massive shooting in the last 30 years or so in US that shooter(s) used automatic "assault rifle" that was converted (ILLEGALLY) from semi?

Let see, San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Sandy Hook, VT, Fort Hood, DC, just to name a few. Nope, no auto gun there IIRC.

<This is not directly to you> Also, the SB shooters build several pipe bombs, let ban or restrict pipes and various chemicals for personal use at home, for our safety, eh? <sarcastic>
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
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...The other key thing is for our states to maintain their militias that use real military units and hardware. That is the well regulated militia intended with the 2nd Amendment.

LOL! This again. This has been studied and determined to be categorically untrue over and over and over. Every angle has been looked at including how it would have been understood at the time, how comma usage compares to the rest of the as from the same authors, personal anecdotes of the authors, and how it was immediately applied.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The other key thing is for our states to maintain their militias that use real military units and hardware. That is the well regulated militia intended with the 2nd Amendment.

That has not been the interpretation numerous times by the USSC.

George Mason said this.

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

As somebody else posted about the usage of "regulated" then...

"Well regulated" was a common usage back then, well before the government regulated everything.

The Industries of New South Wales 1766

Quote:
Close to the homestead is a neatly kept vegetable garden which is no unimportant feature in connection with a well regulated homestead in these districts and stock yards large sheep drafting yards and homestead paddocks for the use of working horses and bullocks and for the accommodation of ration sheep are contiguous.

US v Cruikshank made it *very* clear that the right to bear arms is an inalienable right of every person. The Constitution restricts Congress, not the US people, since all rights are already granted.

This is one reason why Jefferson didn't want a Bill of Rights, because all rights already existed without having a BoR. He felt that misinterpretation of the meaning of the BoR would be that only those rights so enumerated in the BoR were valid, instead of *ALL* rights already existing. This is what most people forget about the Constitution, it is not a check on the people, nor does it deny rights to the people, it clarifies what Congress (and the States later) can do to the people.

Almost 80 years ago US v Miller ruled...

"all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense" and that "when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."


I find it interesting that when confronted with the insanity of birthright citizenship, liberals completely lose their shit when discussing clarifying the language. However, when discussing the 2nd Amendment, they are more than willing to do it.
 
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Feb 24, 2001
14,550
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Can you cite any case of massive shooting in the last 30 years or so in US that shooter(s) used automatic "assault rifle" that was converted (ILLEGALLY) from semi?

Let see, San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Sandy Hook, VT, Fort Hood, DC, just to name a few. Nope, no auto gun there IIRC.

<This is not directly to you> Also, the SB shooters build several pipe bombs, let ban or restrict pipes and various chemicals for personal use at home, for our safety, eh? <sarcastic>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Phillips and M&#259;t&#259;s&#259;reanu carried illegally-modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s

No idea what the thread is about, just scrolled through and saw your post so figured I'd answer it.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
Can you cite any case of massive shooting in the last 30 years or so in US that shooter(s) used automatic "assault rifle" that was converted (ILLEGALLY) from semi?

They are very rare, but the North Hollywood shootout comes to mind.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
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The AR15 can be easily modified to allow it to belt fed and fired in continuous burst at 15-20 bullets a second. No need for such a weapon of mass murder to be in the hands of the public.
Yes. Governments should be the only ones with these kinds of weapons so they are free to oppress and put-down any kind of uprising.

Why should a government fear its people? That's bad! Right?
You're right, Syrians would've never had a problem with Assad's chemical weapons, bombs, and tanks if only they'd all had machine guns! And that's Assad and his old Russian stuff. Your not-machine guns are definitely going to stop the U.S. military if they want to oppress and quell an uprising.
Thank goodness some governments have chemical weapons. What other option would they have to oppress a well-armed populace? Very fortunate indeed.

Except I guess other governments don't like when one government uses them on its own people...for some reason.

Of course there's also the fact that's why the states have their own military units, so that if the federal government did that they would have means of fighting back. That whole "well regulated militia" thing.
Yeah. Gives them a false sense of security. How hard would it be for federal government to overthrow a state military? This state military should be the only line of "defense" people have. Individuals definitely should not be able to defend their family and property if the government really really reeeally wants to oppress them and handily defeats their state military organization. That would be such a disaster!

What I find baffling is how many police and military people I encounter that are certain the government is attempting to oppress and kill people right now. They're the ones that would be the means by which the government would accomplish that, so basically they must turn into braindead zombies when performing their roles and would be incapable of refusing to carry out orders if they knew they were wrong. But somehow them owning various guns will enable them to take on the might of a modern military that wanted to take them out.
Agreed. Let's make it possible for their greatest fear to become a reality!
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Can you cite any case of massive shooting in the last 30 years or so in US that shooter(s) used automatic "assault rifle" that was converted (ILLEGALLY) from semi?
They are very rare, but the North Hollywood shootout comes to mind.

Good thing they were attacking the authorities instead of the general public, which is specifically why we have a that amendment. No one thinks their use of these weapons was legitimate, but using that to excuse taking guns away from the general population would be an obvious power grab by the authorities.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
<snip>
Take for instance military style "assault rifles", where people act like "well duh its illegal to have full auto ones" like they don't exist but you also openly admit it is quite easy to convert them to that, and you don't see that as enabling full auto versions with minor hassle. So going to back to your "availability" argument, if the availability of means to convert widely available semi-auto guns to full auto is also widespread, then everything is fine, because directly getting full auto versions is controlled. You really don't see how people can view that as a major loophole that makes the full auto ban effectively worthless and so they see the only way to remedy that is to also ban the weapons that are typically converted? But, then it being legal or not doesn't matter you say, so see the laws are pointless. Then why have any laws at all? Where are the lines that you draw? Or do you not draw any at all?
<snip>
Can you cite any case of massive shooting in the last 30 years or so in US that shooter(s) used automatic "assault rifle" that was converted (ILLEGALLY) from semi?

Let see, San Bernardino, Colorado Springs, Sandy Hook, VT, Fort Hood, DC, just to name a few. Nope, no auto gun there IIRC.

<This is not directly to you> Also, the SB shooters build several pipe bombs, let ban or restrict pipes and various chemicals for personal use at home, for our safety, eh? <sarcastic>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Phillips and M&#259;t&#259;s&#259;reanu carried illegally-modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s

No idea what the thread is about, just scrolled through and saw your post so figured I'd answer it.

They are very rare, but the North Hollywood shootout comes to mind.

They were shooting at law enforcement. I don't recall the death toll for non-perpetrators [edit](none)[/edit], but a bank robbery is *very* different from a mass shooting that targets innocent civilians.

I just heard someone mention the other day that the cops had to break into a gun store to get weapons capable of putting down the perpetrators.

Now what would we do if the government was using weapons to oppress the public and the people were limited to shitty, ineffective "hunting" weapons?

[edit]
Only the 2 perpetrators died. One was a suicide.
 
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Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
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Good thing they were attacking the authorities instead of the general public, which is specifically why we have a that amendment. No one thinks their use of these weapons was legitimate, but using that to excuse taking guns away from the general population would be an obvious power grab by the authorities.

I wasn't disagreeing with the point, just citing the only example I could think of.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Phillips and M&#259;t&#259;s&#259;reanu carried illegally-modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s

No idea what the thread is about, just scrolled through and saw your post so figured I'd answer it.

They are very rare, but the North Hollywood shootout comes to mind.

In the context of the thread, I am interested about case(s) in which the shooter(s) used auto "assault rifle" (convert from semi) to shoot/kill civilians and cops/military personnel just because <hate/religious/crazy/<insert reason>>.

The case of N. Hollywood was about 2 guys tried to rob a bank and then tried to use those guns to escape from the cops.
 
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madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
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LOL! This again. This has been studied and determined to be categorically untrue over and over and over. Every angle has been looked at including how it would have been understood at the time, how comma usage compares to the rest of the as from the same authors, personal anecdotes of the authors, and how it was immediately applied.

I just go to the author of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as to what he was thinking:

James Madison said:
"The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

Not militias. The people.
 

haedon

Member
Sep 21, 2015
26
0
0
www.sites4you.net
The incident in North Hollywood and San Bernardino shootout had two different motives i.e., robbery and the other one is to deliver a message to the US government that they( he and his wife) are supporting the ISIS. Although the result is same i.e., victims are mostly civilians. The N.Hollywood shooters killed men to save their lives from their robbing act while the latter killed men because of his belief.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,551
5,960
136
The incident in North Hollywood and San Bernardino shootout had two different motives i.e., robbery and the other one is to deliver a message to the US government that they( he and his wife) are supporting the ISIS. Although the result is same i.e., victims are mostly civilians. The N.Hollywood shooters killed men to save their lives from their robbing act while the latter killed men because of his belief.
IIRC, only the 2 robbers died. Multiple wounded though.
 

eng2d2

Golden Member
Nov 7, 2013
1,007
38
91
The media is pointing their finger on the wife of the shooter. Claims that she wore the pants in the family. Isn't the the husband is the one who has been target shooting in the backyard for years?
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
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The media is pointing their finger on the wife of the shooter. Claims that she wore the pants in the family.

Oh no sir. The batshit, crazy media says it's the guns that did it:

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-pol-cap-guns-column.html

It may be a while before we know everything about the San Bernardino butchery, but the central detail was clear from the start: The culprits were guns.

Not Muslims.

No, no, no. Not this all-American couple; they had nothing to do with the shootings:

 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
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106
LA times, what do you expect man. New York times is just as bad in their omg-guns-are-evil rant.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
Anyone see his dead ass in a pool of blood from Drudge? That's going in my collection. Along with Saddam's hanging pic, Al Zarqawi's dead ass, and Saddam's sons.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I find it interesting that when confronted with the insanity of birthright citizenship, liberals completely lose their shit when discussing clarifying the language. However, when discussing the 2nd Amendment, they are more than willing to do it.

What insanity? The insanity that maybe you are overdue for exportation by 400 years or more?
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
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I went from "I feel bad for you" to "you're a wise and beautiful woman" in about 30 seconds flat.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...urce=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=649324

e widow of a victim in the Dec. 2 San Bernardino terror attack has filed four claims against San Bernardino County seeking a total of $58 million in damages.

The claims, filed on behalf of Renee Wetzel and her children, were served Dec. 22 with the county clerk of the Board of Supervisors. The claims are the only ones filed thus far, according to the county.

Wetzel is seeking $3 million in lost wages and $25 million in general damages for the death of her husband, Michael Wetzel. She is also seeking $10 million in damages for each of her three minor children, identified in the claims by their initials.

The claims say Michael Wetzel's death "was preventable and caused by the negligent and careless actions" of the county and 25 unnamed individual respondents.

 
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