Republican comments on 11 year old being raped.

[IGBT]

if you don't know there are monsters that look like humans in this world you have no business raising kids.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't have a daughter. I'm not doubting that women who dress provocatively do find themselves in sketchy positions more often - that seems intuitively obvious. I'm just very skeptical of young women's self-described "inappropriate advances". Clearly groping does fall into that category though.

My wife is a college professor and has been for a very long time and serves as an academic adviser. More times than not women will come to her and talk about personal issues because she has a husband and children yet has a few advanced degrees including a doctorate in molecular genetics. She's a role model for female science undergrads. Over the many years she's been asked to give some perspective and advice to them, and occasionally they get themselves into a hell of a mess. Some with no intent of leading on anyone (and seemingly little real world experience as well) have had this problem and were completely clueless.

My own situation is that I grew up on the very wrong side of the tracks in the inner city with a few scars along the way. People being shot and raped wasn't even alarming. You just accepted it because that's all you knew. What we did learn though is that people can be animals looking for any excuse to do harm. The obvious solution is to make yourself not stand out. When that was ignored then things could really get out of hand. The last thing I think a reasoning female would want to do is put herself in a dangerous situation and drawing attention to herself. Now this girl is 11 and may or may not have reason to be street smart, but her parents sure as hell should have gotten it. There is no excuse for rape, but her parents allowed her to be marked in what should have been a painfully obvious way.

Then we have this thread where white middle aged suburban kids who have no real experience criticize someone for not wanting their kids to be put in this situation. Somehow caution and protection becomes "she asked for it" even though there wasn't anything said to that effect.

I attribute it to ignorance in the true sense of the word. The idea is objectionable therefore it cannot be true regardless of the outcome.

A few stabs or swipes with a knife would enlighten them, but that's hardly something I would like to see.

Suffice it to say that because there is concern and there are people who want to minimize the horrid things of this world happening to their kids doesn't mean they think "she deserved it."

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

I agree with you. It sucks to be a public figure because sometimes you say something that everyone knows is true but should never be said by a public official.

 

[RightIsWrong]

that's a pretty bad thing to say, but really?

who gives a shit about the Florida State House of Representatives?

that's like half a step above PTA member.

I'm not so sure about that....I'm pretty sure that the PTA has more real impact.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I agree with you. It sucks to be a public figure because sometimes you say something that everyone knows is true but should never be said by a public official.

But the question is that if people are concerned about this issue are you not allowed to point out an example? How censored do we want interactions with pols to be?

If you were her and there was angst in the community would you ignore what would be a common concern?

Remember too that this is America and basically an American forum. The title is "Republican". At that point you must assume that there is an agenda. Of course that would apply to "Democrats". That's the real issue, that a Republican (in this case) said it.

When looking at a post there is more than facts. There are implications and agendas and reality takes a back seat. Perhaps she could have said things in a better way, but looking at her words (not the comments about them) do you see gloating about her being raped? Do you see her saying "I'm so glad we aren't like her"? No you see her expressing concern that children aren't placed in that situation. As I parent I have a hard time faulting that attitude.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Remember too that this is America and basically an American forum. The title is "Republican". At that point you must assume that there is an agenda. Of course that would apply to "Democrats". That's the real issue, that a Republican (in this case) said it.

Oh of course. I have said it before on this subforum. If the title said 'Democrats' you could reliably predict that the names would be swapped around on members in this thread but the posts would be the same. This is why your country is irreparably damaged - your politicians have handpuppeted you into a state in which half of the country holds an irrational hatred of the other half (and vice versa), so the people of America will never, ever have the power to do anything together.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh of course. I have said it before on this subforum. If the title said 'Democrats' you could reliably predict that the names would be swapped around on members in this thread but the posts would be the same. This is why your country is irreparably damaged - your politicians have handpuppeted you into a state in which half of the country holds an irrational hatred of the other half (and vice versa), so the people of America will never, ever have the power to do anything together.

You've probably noted my distaste for political parties, and I'm not the first. Our first President warned that they would be the downfall of the nation. I'm inclined to agree with him. The advent of the internet and instant mass communication in general (TV etc) has hastened the process. I think you've correctly characterized our sorry state. Not many years ago the Reps tapped into the Christian fundamentalist crowd by promising to curtail or eliminate abortion. It sounded good to them of course, but a little consideration would have lead them to the correct conclusion that the nation as a whole had moved beyond the point where that was possible. Indeed, the Republicans hardly made any serious legislative push to overturn Roe V. Wade. Why would they need to? They already got their vote. They just had to keep dangling the carrot of hope and they bit. I can pull up examples of the same nonsense by Democrats. The Progressives have been used in like manner.

Of course this requires the successful demonizing of the opposition. Unfortunately some people by nature feel the need to put party above all. The claims that Conservatives judge people by race and that Liberals want to make us into slaves is also commonly seen. People need to be used. It's a bizarre concept and perhaps that's not how they see it, but effectively it is.

In truth if you were to come to the US you would find that you would be treated pretty much the same no matter the party the person identifies with. To be sure there would be bitching about things in casual conversation, but the hyperbole is just that.

Still, the political system we have creates more detritus than anything else. We are used and collectively we either don't care or don't understand the implications.

That leads to the parties doing what they want because they know Dems are reluctant to vote for anyone else and vice versa.

This forum is a sad microcosm of our nation in terms of politics. We have no real choices since candidates have to pass a party litmus test. We have to select from a list of two selected for us.

The result is that there is little insight or substance in our debate. To quote some of my favorite Shakespearean lines-

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

 

[shira]

If parents would just force their underage daughters to wear chastity belts, we'd reduce the incidence of rape of underage girls by at least 90%. And if we also include underage boys, we'd solve the pedophile priest problem, too.

So the rape of underage children is clearly a parenting problem.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If parents would just force their underage daughters to wear chastity belts, we'd reduce the incidence of rape of underage girls by at least 90%. And if we also include underage boys, we'd solve the pedophile priest problem, too.

So the rape of underage children is clearly a parenting problem.

Thank you for providing a clear example of what I was talking about with GA.
Your check for a buck two-fifty is in the mail!

 

[Macamus Prime]

I can't believe people are defending this...

I'm pretty sure it's trolling.

Clearly the politician commented and pointed to, that if the 11 year old did not dress like a prostitute, the rape would not have occured. And, if they (the parents) don't do something to prevent their children from dressing like prostitutes, the same thing could happen to them.

The "defenders" are flat out ignoring the obvious.

It's OK though - it just proves and confirms what some of the posters on these boards are here for.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

How old are you? Have children? Born into a nice cozy middle class world?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You've probably noted my distaste for political parties, and I'm not the first. Our first President warned that they would be the downfall of the nation. I'm inclined to agree with him. The advent of the internet and instant mass communication in general (TV etc) has hastened the process. I think you've correctly characterized our sorry state. Not many years ago the Reps tapped into the Christian fundamentalist crowd by promising to curtail or eliminate abortion. It sounded good to them of course, but a little consideration would have lead them to the correct conclusion that the nation as a whole had moved beyond the point where that was possible. Indeed, the Republicans hardly made any serious legislative push to overturn Roe V. Wade. Why would they need to? They already got their vote. They just had to keep dangling the carrot of hope and they bit. I can pull up examples of the same nonsense by Democrats. The Progressives have been used in like manner.

Of course this requires the successful demonizing of the opposition. Unfortunately some people by nature feel the need to put party above all. The claims that Conservatives judge people by race and that Liberals want to make us into slaves is also commonly seen. People need to be used. It's a bizarre concept and perhaps that's not how they see it, but effectively it is.

In truth if you were to come to the US you would find that you would be treated pretty much the same no matter the party the person identifies with. To be sure there would be bitching about things in casual conversation, but the hyperbole is just that.

Still, the political system we have creates more detritus than anything else. We are used and collectively we either don't care or don't understand the implications.

That leads to the parties doing what they want because they know Dems are reluctant to vote for anyone else and vice versa.

This forum is a sad microcosm of our nation in terms of politics. We have no real choices since candidates have to pass a party litmus test. We have to select from a list of two selected for us.

The result is that there is little insight or substance in our debate. To quote some of my favorite Shakespearean lines-

Well said. :thumbsup:

 

[wayliff]

You've probably noted my distaste for political parties, and I'm not the first. Our first President warned that they would be the downfall of the nation. I'm inclined to agree with him. The advent of the internet and instant mass communication in general (TV etc) has hastened the process. I think you've correctly characterized our sorry state. Not many years ago the Reps tapped into the Christian fundamentalist crowd by promising to curtail or eliminate abortion. It sounded good to them of course, but a little consideration would have lead them to the correct conclusion that the nation as a whole had moved beyond the point where that was possible. Indeed, the Republicans hardly made any serious legislative push to overturn Roe V. Wade. Why would they need to? They already got their vote. They just had to keep dangling the carrot of hope and they bit. I can pull up examples of the same nonsense by Democrats. The Progressives have been used in like manner.

Of course this requires the successful demonizing of the opposition. Unfortunately some people by nature feel the need to put party above all. The claims that Conservatives judge people by race and that Liberals want to make us into slaves is also commonly seen. People need to be used. It's a bizarre concept and perhaps that's not how they see it, but effectively it is.

In truth if you were to come to the US you would find that you would be treated pretty much the same no matter the party the person identifies with. To be sure there would be bitching about things in casual conversation, but the hyperbole is just that.

Still, the political system we have creates more detritus than anything else. We are used and collectively we either don't care or don't understand the implications.

That leads to the parties doing what they want because they know Dems are reluctant to vote for anyone else and vice versa.

This forum is a sad microcosm of our nation in terms of politics. We have no real choices since candidates have to pass a party litmus test. We have to select from a list of two selected for us.

The result is that there is little insight or substance in our debate. To quote some of my favorite Shakespearean lines-

:thumbsup: - great post.

 

[werepossum]

You've probably noted my distaste for political parties, and I'm not the first. Our first President warned that they would be the downfall of the nation. I'm inclined to agree with him. The advent of the internet and instant mass communication in general (TV etc) has hastened the process. I think you've correctly characterized our sorry state. Not many years ago the Reps tapped into the Christian fundamentalist crowd by promising to curtail or eliminate abortion. It sounded good to them of course, but a little consideration would have lead them to the correct conclusion that the nation as a whole had moved beyond the point where that was possible. Indeed, the Republicans hardly made any serious legislative push to overturn Roe V. Wade. Why would they need to? They already got their vote. They just had to keep dangling the carrot of hope and they bit. I can pull up examples of the same nonsense by Democrats. The Progressives have been used in like manner.

Of course this requires the successful demonizing of the opposition. Unfortunately some people by nature feel the need to put party above all. The claims that Conservatives judge people by race and that Liberals want to make us into slaves is also commonly seen. People need to be used. It's a bizarre concept and perhaps that's not how they see it, but effectively it is.

In truth if you were to come to the US you would find that you would be treated pretty much the same no matter the party the person identifies with. To be sure there would be bitching about things in casual conversation, but the hyperbole is just that.

Still, the political system we have creates more detritus than anything else. We are used and collectively we either don't care or don't understand the implications.

That leads to the parties doing what they want because they know Dems are reluctant to vote for anyone else and vice versa.

This forum is a sad microcosm of our nation in terms of politics. We have no real choices since candidates have to pass a party litmus test. We have to select from a list of two selected for us.

The result is that there is little insight or substance in our debate. To quote some of my favorite Shakespearean lines-

Agreed, very well said, as usual.

 

[werepossum]

I was truly surprised to see that only a couple people were educated enough in the subject of rape to at least recognize that this sad situation has more to do with an aspect of control and power than an 11 year old child dressing "inappropriately" for her age.

What the small time politician said was very ignorant, and sadly inaccurate...but I have learned that politicians are not the smartest people not even the most politically correct. Sadly politicians are a reflection of the voting public and society.

No human ever deserves to be raped...no child at 11 is looking to be raped. No one wants to be taken advantage of in such an atrocious way. I hope people stop undermining this child and her situation by implying this is some kind of small or normal experience for a girl who dresses older than her age.

Also well said. Passidomo had a point, but she should have gone to great lengths to avoid being seen as blaming the victim. If she had to mention this case, she would have been much better to emphasize not the girl's attire, but that she was being allowed to run wild, given an adult's freedom and privileges to be exercised with a child's judgment. In effect, she was abandoned by her parent(s) or guardian.

Even with that point, it needs to be emphasized that although, as Hayabusarider points out, one's chances of being molested or raped increase with provocative dress and licentious behavior, modest dress and behavior are not proof from being molested, groped or raped. The great danger of pointing out contributing factors in a case like this is that doing so tends to mitigate the truly evil behavior, so while the dangers are worth emphasizing, one should always also emphasize the truly evil behavior. This is doubly true with a politician who should know her words are always subject ot being used against her.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Also well said. Passidomo had a point, but she should have gone to great lengths to avoid being seen as blaming the victim. If she had to mention this case, she would have been much better to emphasize not the girl's attire, but that she was being allowed to run wild, given an adult's freedom and privileges to be exercised with a child's judgment. In effect, she was abandoned by her parent(s) or guardian.

Easy to say...hard to believe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/us/29texas.html?pagewanted=3&_r=2

"The small house where the girl lived is on a dusty road on the outskirts of town, about 10 miles from Precinct 20. There were chickens in the yard and a trampoline out front, where her father sometimes slept during the afternoons. She lived there with her parents, two older sisters who were in high school and a younger brother.

A 36-year-old cousin of the girl, who lived next door, said her family was in dire economic straits since Juan stopped working. The water and electricity had been cut off at times in recent months.

The house is empty now. Two weeks ago, the family moved to another town after detectives told the parents that they were in danger, Juan said.

The father said he had been worried about his daughter’s safety for months before the assaults. She had been sneaking out of the house two or three nights a week, he said, climbing out a bedroom window. Some nights she would come home as late as 11 p.m. or midnight, saying she had visited girlfriends. He said he and his wife had scolded her almost daily.

Both parents are plagued with health problems. Juan injured his back in November 2009 and has not held a steady job since. A diabetic, he receives disability checks of $700 a month. His wife, 42, was told last year that she had a mass in her brain, and a doctor had said it should be removed, friends said. She suffers frequent headaches and fainting spells.

Yet she put off surgery and continued to work at night as a cashier at an underground gambling parlor, friends said. “She wasn’t interested in living,” said Maria Luisa Lopez, a longtime friend. “She felt very sad.” "

 

[werepossum]

Easy to say...hard to believe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/us/29texas.html?pagewanted=3&_r=2

"The small house where the girl lived is on a dusty road on the outskirts of town, about 10 miles from Precinct 20. There were chickens in the yard and a trampoline out front, where her father sometimes slept during the afternoons. She lived there with her parents, two older sisters who were in high school and a younger brother.

A 36-year-old cousin of the girl, who lived next door, said her family was in dire economic straits since Juan stopped working. The water and electricity had been cut off at times in recent months.

The house is empty now. Two weeks ago, the family moved to another town after detectives told the parents that they were in danger, Juan said.

The father said he had been worried about his daughter’s safety for months before the assaults. She had been sneaking out of the house two or three nights a week, he said, climbing out a bedroom window. Some nights she would come home as late as 11 p.m. or midnight, saying she had visited girlfriends. He said he and his wife had scolded her almost daily.

Both parents are plagued with health problems. Juan injured his back in November 2009 and has not held a steady job since. A diabetic, he receives disability checks of $700 a month. His wife, 42, was told last year that she had a mass in her brain, and a doctor had said it should be removed, friends said. She suffers frequent headaches and fainting spells.

Yet she put off surgery and continued to work at night as a cashier at an underground gambling parlor, friends said. “She wasn’t interested in living,” said Maria Luisa Lopez, a longtime friend. “She felt very sad.” "

If you know an eleven year old is regularly sneaking out, and you fail to fix the problem, that is a form of abandonment in my opinion. Considering the dangers to a child in that situation, placing her in foster care would be a better option. The child is in one way lucky; being gang raped is truly horrible, but many such children end up in shallow graves.

 

[shangshang]

This country is really focked up when an 11 y/o is gangraped.

 

[Macamus Prime]

If you know an eleven year old is regularly sneaking out, and you fail to fix the problem, that is a form of abandonment in my opinion. Considering the dangers to a child in that situation, placing her in foster care would be a better option. The child is in one way lucky; being gang raped is truly horrible, but many such children end up in shallow graves.

I am wondering, the 28 young teen males that raped her - do their parents have any obligation to teach and enforce that sex with an 11 year old is NOT OK?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If you know an eleven year old is regularly sneaking out, and you fail to fix the problem, that is a form of abandonment in my opinion. Considering the dangers to a child in that situation, placing her in foster care would be a better option. The child is in one way lucky; being gang raped is truly horrible, but many such children end up in shallow graves.

They attempted to fix the problem in their way. It's so easy to be a Monday morning armchair QB...but I don't think you can even remotely comprehend the depth of despair here. Tell me...just who are we to judge them?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I am wondering, the 28 young teen males that raped her - do their parents have any obligation to teach and enforce that sex with an 11 year old is NOT OK?

Of course they do. The males who did this should go away a very long time. The parents? It's hard to tell. Sometimes no amount of parental skill works on a bad seed. My suspicion though is that most of the parents didn't make much of an effort because that's often the case.

 

[Jaskalas]

Oh of course. I have said it before on this subforum. If the title said 'Democrats' you could reliably predict that the names would be swapped around on members in this thread but the posts would be the same. This is why your country is irreparably damaged - your politicians have handpuppeted you into a state in which half of the country holds an irrational hatred of the other half (and vice versa), so the people of America will never, ever have the power to do anything together.

I'm sure the one last thing we'll agree to do together, will be to make civil war. You just look at the enviroment and wonder where a healthy outcome may even begin to originate?

Our divisions are being played to their bitter end. John Edwards was damn straight that there are two Americas. Our perceptions are different, and so too are our realities different. Bridging this gap between the two realities can happen on a personal level, but our media and internet are fueling a hyper partisan environment.

Humanity is infantile in its capacity to talk amongst itself through great distances, and through great diversities. Never before in history has such a thing existed and our misuse of it could end many lives in a tragic way.

I wonder how many of us see the cliff ahead, but cannot find the brake?

 

[Jaskalas]

This country is really focked up when an 11 y/o is gangraped.

I believe you've merely underestimated the human animal. Soceity can lull you into a false sense of security by the appearance of how civilized things can be. People tend to forget that others live among us who do not share our values, virtues, or moral code.

Animal code is to simply take what you want.

 

[Macamus Prime]

Tell me...just who are we to judge them?

We can't. And this idiot from FL doesn't seem to understand.

Regardless of the girl's home environment, it is clear that she was a bright and smart girl (from the NYTimes link). She had so much going for her. There isn't ANYTHING that supports the comments against the girl and her parents about this awful situation.

The home environment was in total dispair. Health and economics are an issue. OK - how the hell does this lead up to; "we have to do something to prevent this from happening to our kids, by stopping them from dressing like prostitutes"??

This is in no way her fault, nor the parents fault. It is the fault of the 28 rapists and the parents that did nothing to teach these young "men" how to be men and not slime.

I wonder when this politican twat found out about the victim's nationality; before or after she made the comment that said victim dressed like a whore?

 

[werepossum]

I am wondering, the 28 young teen males that raped her - do their parents have any obligation to teach and enforce that sex with an 11 year old is NOT OK?

Certainly, and also that rape is evil. However as a parent one cannot depend on the world being a nice place. There will always be predators, and one must actively keep one's children from being in harm's way, even (perhaps usually) against their will.

They attempted to fix the problem in their way. It's so easy to be a Monday morning armchair QB...but I don't think you can even remotely comprehend the depth of despair here. Tell me...just who are we to judge them?

I do have some idea, my stepdaughter had much the same behavioral problems although thank G-d not at freakin' 11! Willful children who consider themselves adults can be extremely difficult to deal with. But the fact remains that no matter what they tried, they failed their daughter.

One can try as hard as possible and still fail. There's not always a right choice and a wrong choice, and quite often the better choice has its own bad effects. I'm not saying that these parents are evil, but I am saying that they failed their daughter.