Check the February 2001 issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. But that's not the subject here.
Edit: Added year of journal article.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: BDawg
Originally posted by: jaeger66
I'm sorry, but there IS A difference between polygamy and incest, and homsexuality. 2 men having sex harms nobody. But 2 relatives having a child potentially does irreparable harm to the child. And if somebody, maybe even the government, has to pay benefits to a man's 15 wives then there is a problem.
Women who smoke a drink while pregnant harm their children. Children who's parents smoke around them have a higher occurance of asthma. Where do you draw the line?
What peer reviewed study do you have that shows a direct link between children developing asthma and ETS?
The "ETS causes asthma" claim has been debunked for quite some time now.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: BDawg
Originally posted by: Amused
Although I disagree with him, at least he's being consistent with his views according to his religion.
Consenting, non-related adults should be free to do what ever they want to in the privacy of their own homes. It's no body's business what they do, so long as they are consenting. If your religion frowns upon it, fine. Don't do it.
The problem I have is I don't think my religous beliefs should be forced on others.
So, why do you think only non-related adults should be free to do what they will?
Non-related adults because incest can never be truly consensual, and it causes a host of problems for their offspring.
The point isn't morality, it's legality. If we went around enforcing morality laws we'd still have prohibition and the film and music industries would be non-existant.Originally posted by: Stark
Originally posted by: Fausto1
*sigh* I typed out a really long response to this only to find the thread had disappeared. :frown:Originally posted by: Athanasius
My point is this: the government is the people, or should be. When one says that the government has no business passing any legislation regarding sexual activity between consenting adults, I think one opens Pandora's box if that standard is applied consistently in all areas of life. The government (i.e: "We the People") does have the right to define what behavior is to be legally protected. It does so all the time, often "a priori" assuming that it "insures domestic tranquility and promotes the general welfare."
Here's the condensed version: You cannot consistently apply laws regarding sexual morality to all the lifestyles/acts/etc mentioned by Santorum because they're effectively all different with regard to who they affect adversely and how they do so. Two men living in a consensual relationship is obviously very different than a father marrying his daughter. Even if with the possibility of children taken out of the picture (via a vasectomy for example) you're still going to have some serious child development issues and issues with regard to family structure and offspring/parent relationships that go far deeper and further back in our history than any law of the land. You can avoid opening the Pandoras Box or slamming the Personal Freedom Box completely shut (as Santorum would have it) by simply addressing such issues on a case-by-case basis.
How so? It can be argued that close siblings engaging in a monogomous relationship have a lesser risk of contracting and spreading STDs than the average gay male.
Personally, I think homosexuality, incest, and beastiality all fall into the same category, morally.
Actually, I think Moses came up with that list. He got it from a Good source. I just agree with it.
Originally posted by: Purgatory-Z
Originally posted by: BDawg
Originally posted by: jaeger66
I'm sorry, but there IS A difference between polygamy and incest, and homsexuality. 2 men having sex harms nobody. But 2 relatives having a child potentially does irreparable harm to the child. And if somebody, maybe even the government, has to pay benefits to a man's 15 wives then there is a problem.
Women who smoke a drink while pregnant harm their children. Children who's parents smoke around them have a higher occurance of asthma. Where do you draw the line?
Jaeger66, have you been to school? A child that has 2 dads would be ridculed every single day of his life and would never fit in socially. Because of that, who knows what kind of damage it could do to him. The kids who are constantly picked on every single day are the ones who turn out to be serial killers =).
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: BDawg
Originally posted by: Amused
Although I disagree with him, at least he's being consistent with his views according to his religion.
Consenting, non-related adults should be free to do what ever they want to in the privacy of their own homes. It's no body's business what they do, so long as they are consenting. If your religion frowns upon it, fine. Don't do it.
The problem I have is I don't think my religous beliefs should be forced on others.
So, why do you think only non-related adults should be free to do what they will?
Non-related adults because incest can never be truly consensual, and it causes a host of problems for their offspring.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Perhaps that's because we expect people to be smart enough to realise that every person is free to have his own opinion. So his opinion disagrees with yours, aren't the liberals the ones who are really big on protecting minority opinions? Oh, wait, they only like minority opnions when those opinions are P.C.Originally posted by: jahawkin
And all the Republicans have been really quick to distance themselves from Santorum and his views.......Wait a minute.....
ZV
don't even pretend to be so niave. if he had said something like "i think bill clinton was a cool guy" or "religious fundamentalism has no place in the republican party" his brotherhood of republicans would have come down on him like a ton of bricks. there is no room for minority opinion in the republican party. they aren't touching him because they know their constituents largely agree with him.
just look at what happened to the two republicans against bush's huge tax cut, Republicans are already taking out attack ads against them comparing them to the french.
if you say or do something that the republicans disagree with, you'll know it right away, they are viscious.
Originally posted by: jaeger66
Originally posted by: Purgatory-Z
Jaeger66, have you been to school? A child that has 2 dads would be ridculed every single day of his life and would never fit in socially. Because of that, who knows what kind of damage it could do to him. The kids who are constantly picked on every single day are the ones who turn out to be serial killers =).
The issue is not gay adoption, it's gay sex. So unless one of them is particularly well endowed, they're not getting hurt.
Festival Is Called Syphilis Threat
Officials fear outbreak from annual party in Palm Springs. Expected are 30,000 gay revelers.
By Charles Ornstein and Louis Sahagun, Times Staff Writers
With 30,000 gay revelers expected for this weekend's "White Party" in Palm Springs ? a festival famous for sex and substance abuse ? public health officials and some gay leaders worry openly that it will fan an epidemic of syphilis.
"We're nervous that they're going to take it there, and we're nervous that they're going to bring it home," said Dr. Peter Kerndt, director of sexually transmitted disease control in Los Angeles County.
They have reason to be nervous. For the last two years, cases of the sexually transmitted disease have risen dramatically in the Palm Springs area and throughout the state, driven almost exclusively by gay and bisexual men. Outbreaks have sometimes been fueled by large gatherings, beginning with millennium celebrations in Los Angeles in 2000.
Statewide, the number of new infectious syphilis cases nearly doubled last year, to 1,035. Los Angeles County reported 362 cases, up from 199 a year earlier. San Francisco logged 316 cases, more than two times the 2001 tally, according to preliminary estimates. But Palm Springs, which is far smaller than either metropolitan area, has in one year developed one of the highest per capita rates of syphilis in the nation.
Riverside County in 2002 reported 54 new infectious syphilis cases ? 48 of them in the eastern part of the county that includes Palm Springs. The entire county reported only 17 cases of infectious syphilis a year earlier, said Barbara Cole, director of disease control for Riverside County.
The California Department of Health Services issued an alert in late January warning health authorities nationwide of the Palm Springs problem and asking them to report syphilis cases among people who recently traveled to the area. In part, the upsurge can be traced to the area's growing popularity among gay men for retirement and recreation.
"The disease is spreading dramatically here," said Robert Farrell, director of medical services at the Desert AIDS Project.
Syphilis, though easily treatable with antibiotics, can lead to blindness, neurological problems and even death if left untreated. But the disease is most worrisome, in the near term, for what it signifies: a breakdown in safe-sex practices that can lead to other sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.
Many men with syphilis already are co-infected with HIV. In San Francisco and Los Angeles counties, at least half of those testing positive for syphilis are HIV-positive. Moreover, the sores caused by syphilis facilitate transmission of the AIDS virus.
Public health officials hope that by promoting syphilis prevention and testing at the 14th annual White Party, they will reach men at risk for HIV or those who have the virus but don't know it.
Volunteers are distributing laminated wallet-sized cards warning, "Check him out! Syphilis is spreading rapidly among gay men in the Coachella Valley. The increase in cases is dramatic and is impacting the health of individuals who are infected."
The reverse side of the cards includes information about symptoms, prevention strategies and treatment.
In addition, hotels and bars are being asked to distribute condoms and lubricant, which helps prevent condoms from breaking, Cole said.
White Party founder Jeffrey Sanker ? whose Web site touting the event contains many photos of muscular, shirtless men ? said he is working with local health officials and volunteers to promote safer sex.
"The safety and comfort of my patrons is my No. 1 priority," Sanker said. "The continued risk of HIV infection as well as the recent outbreak of syphilis cases in the Palm Springs area are both issues we certainly cannot ignore."
The event takes its name from the color white, which organizers said symbolizes the renewal of the spring season. Partygoers are charged $250 for access to all weekend parties or $400 for a "Titanium" pass that admits them to VIP lounges.
The main event is held Saturday night at the Palm Springs Convention Center. Last year, pop and movie star Jennifer Lopez and her dance troupe made a surprise appearance. The party continues Sunday morning at the Wyndham hotel with an event called "Climax After Hours."
Desert AIDS Project officials said Sanker has donated 10,000 condoms and tubes of lubricant ? matching the agency's contribution.
Two weeks ago, a Desert AIDS Project official said Sanker could do more to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. But John Brown, the group's executive director, said this week, "I haven't perceived him [Sanker] as being an obstacle."
He added that gay-oriented events should not be expected to meet a higher standard than other spring break gatherings.
Some White Party veterans said they are aware of the risks, and they take precautions.
"I've been to the White Party many times," said Riverside businessman Darren Conkerite, 36. "You need to be safe ... but that shouldn't take away from the fun."
Officials in Los Angeles County and San Francisco are sending health workers to the party to help with education and testing ? although they acknowledged feeling somewhat helpless to control the spread of syphilis even in their own communities.
Both Kerndt and Dr. Jeffrey Klausner, his counterpart in San Francisco, have launched many awareness campaigns in the last two years, but they said the obstacles have been enormous.
"We're talking about sex addiction, drug addiction, loneliness, isolation, low self-esteem and disease, lots of it," Kerndt said.
Although some people can be encouraged to practice safer sex, he said, "We know information is not enough to change behavior.... There is this hard-core group: They want sex and they want it without a condom."
In its first, or primary, stage, syphilis causes a painless sore on the penis or in the mouth or anus. If it progresses to Stage 2, it can cause a rash. After that, more severe problems can develop if it is untreated.
Klausner said he isn't sure that his department will be able to stop the syphilis epidemic from reaching 2,100 cases, the same as 1983, the highest recorded level since tracking began nearly five decades ago.
"We're working very hard every day to look for innovative responses," he said, "but if it increased back to the levels in the early '80s, would I be completely surprised? No."
Originally posted by: Stark
Maybe this is the kind of "homosexual act" he's objecting to:
Festival Is Called Syphilis Threat
Officials fear outbreak from annual party in Palm Springs. Expected are 30,000 gay revelers.
By Charles Ornstein and Louis Sahagun, Times Staff Writers
With 30,000 gay revelers expected for this weekend's "White Party" in Palm Springs ? a festival famous for sex and substance abuse ? public health officials and some gay leaders worry openly that it will fan an epidemic of syphilis.
"We're nervous that they're going to take it there, and we're nervous that they're going to bring it home," said Dr. Peter Kerndt, director of sexually transmitted disease control in Los Angeles County.
They have reason to be nervous. For the last two years, cases of the sexually transmitted disease have risen dramatically in the Palm Springs area and throughout the state, driven almost exclusively by gay and bisexual men. Outbreaks have sometimes been fueled by large gatherings, beginning with millennium celebrations in Los Angeles in 2000.
Statewide, the number of new infectious syphilis cases nearly doubled last year, to 1,035. Los Angeles County reported 362 cases, up from 199 a year earlier. San Francisco logged 316 cases, more than two times the 2001 tally, according to preliminary estimates. But Palm Springs, which is far smaller than either metropolitan area, has in one year developed one of the highest per capita rates of syphilis in the nation.
Riverside County in 2002 reported 54 new infectious syphilis cases ? 48 of them in the eastern part of the county that includes Palm Springs. The entire county reported only 17 cases of infectious syphilis a year earlier, said Barbara Cole, director of disease control for Riverside County.
The California Department of Health Services issued an alert in late January warning health authorities nationwide of the Palm Springs problem and asking them to report syphilis cases among people who recently traveled to the area. In part, the upsurge can be traced to the area's growing popularity among gay men for retirement and recreation.
"The disease is spreading dramatically here," said Robert Farrell, director of medical services at the Desert AIDS Project.
Syphilis, though easily treatable with antibiotics, can lead to blindness, neurological problems and even death if left untreated. But the disease is most worrisome, in the near term, for what it signifies: a breakdown in safe-sex practices that can lead to other sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.
Many men with syphilis already are co-infected with HIV. In San Francisco and Los Angeles counties, at least half of those testing positive for syphilis are HIV-positive. Moreover, the sores caused by syphilis facilitate transmission of the AIDS virus.
Public health officials hope that by promoting syphilis prevention and testing at the 14th annual White Party, they will reach men at risk for HIV or those who have the virus but don't know it.
Volunteers are distributing laminated wallet-sized cards warning, "Check him out! Syphilis is spreading rapidly among gay men in the Coachella Valley. The increase in cases is dramatic and is impacting the health of individuals who are infected."
The reverse side of the cards includes information about symptoms, prevention strategies and treatment.
In addition, hotels and bars are being asked to distribute condoms and lubricant, which helps prevent condoms from breaking, Cole said.
White Party founder Jeffrey Sanker ? whose Web site touting the event contains many photos of muscular, shirtless men ? said he is working with local health officials and volunteers to promote safer sex.
"The safety and comfort of my patrons is my No. 1 priority," Sanker said. "The continued risk of HIV infection as well as the recent outbreak of syphilis cases in the Palm Springs area are both issues we certainly cannot ignore."
The event takes its name from the color white, which organizers said symbolizes the renewal of the spring season. Partygoers are charged $250 for access to all weekend parties or $400 for a "Titanium" pass that admits them to VIP lounges.
The main event is held Saturday night at the Palm Springs Convention Center. Last year, pop and movie star Jennifer Lopez and her dance troupe made a surprise appearance. The party continues Sunday morning at the Wyndham hotel with an event called "Climax After Hours."
Desert AIDS Project officials said Sanker has donated 10,000 condoms and tubes of lubricant ? matching the agency's contribution.
Two weeks ago, a Desert AIDS Project official said Sanker could do more to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. But John Brown, the group's executive director, said this week, "I haven't perceived him [Sanker] as being an obstacle."
He added that gay-oriented events should not be expected to meet a higher standard than other spring break gatherings.
Some White Party veterans said they are aware of the risks, and they take precautions.
"I've been to the White Party many times," said Riverside businessman Darren Conkerite, 36. "You need to be safe ... but that shouldn't take away from the fun."
Officials in Los Angeles County and San Francisco are sending health workers to the party to help with education and testing ? although they acknowledged feeling somewhat helpless to control the spread of syphilis even in their own communities.
Both Kerndt and Dr. Jeffrey Klausner, his counterpart in San Francisco, have launched many awareness campaigns in the last two years, but they said the obstacles have been enormous.
"We're talking about sex addiction, drug addiction, loneliness, isolation, low self-esteem and disease, lots of it," Kerndt said.
Although some people can be encouraged to practice safer sex, he said, "We know information is not enough to change behavior.... There is this hard-core group: They want sex and they want it without a condom."
In its first, or primary, stage, syphilis causes a painless sore on the penis or in the mouth or anus. If it progresses to Stage 2, it can cause a rash. After that, more severe problems can develop if it is untreated.
Klausner said he isn't sure that his department will be able to stop the syphilis epidemic from reaching 2,100 cases, the same as 1983, the highest recorded level since tracking began nearly five decades ago.
"We're working very hard every day to look for innovative responses," he said, "but if it increased back to the levels in the early '80s, would I be completely surprised? No."
LA Times
Originally posted by: konichiwa
One can find examples of rampant sexual misconduct for any sexual group. So what?
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
So, when is Rick Santorum up for re-election? I can't wait to see the attack ads from this!
Seriously, though. Pennsylvania is a moderate "swing state", and soundbites like this are going to haunt him if he has to run against some strong Democratic opposition.
Originally posted by: NightTrain
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
So, when is Rick Santorum up for re-election? I can't wait to see the attack ads from this!
Seriously, though. Pennsylvania is a moderate "swing state", and soundbites like this are going to haunt him if he has to run against some strong Democratic opposition.
You might be surprised. If someone tries to paint him as anti-gay, it may actually help him instead of hurt him. Anyone who thinks differently is dreaming. I'm surprised everyday at how many people are openly hostile towards gay people.
At any rate, Santorum's point is a valid one...perhaps not in the way he intended. I would echo what alot of people have said in regards to certain sexual activity being considered illegal. The incest one is a tough one..still undecided there but if a person wants to marry 10 people, I don't see where that's the government's business anymore than two homosexuals doing whatever they please.
If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery
Because he didn't say it. Interesting that the "AP reporter" is the wife of John Kerry's campaign manager.Originally posted by: Iwentsouth
"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery,"
Why is gay in brackets in the quote?