Republicans want to seal the Florida ballots!

[glenn1]

"You are wrong. America has not accepted the outcome.."

You just go on believing that. The Republicans thought the same just a couple years ago during impeachment. The outcome this time will be no different, and better that you understand and accept that now. Otherwise, you'll get to learn the hard way, the same way the R's did.

Have fun beating your head against the wall for the next couple of years.

 

[fragarific]

>1) I still see in many posts that a lot of people are still condemning Clinton for getting a little "frisky" in the oval office. You know, Clinton was the best president this country has had in ages, possibly ever... and if gettin' some tail kept him doing a great job, I'm all for it.

>2) People seem to be expecting a second depression simply because Bush was elected. Luckily for us, the constitution does provide a fairly reliable system of checks and balances to keep any one person from totally ruining the country.

>3) 4 years isnt that long. we survived reagan, we survived sr, we can survive dubya as well.

this is probably the best thing to ever come out of AOL

 

[glenn1]

Very reasonable post Frag. That's the great thing about America, it survives and transcends any given person. Just as you state, we survived Reagan and Bush Sr. - on the Democratic ledger, we survived Carter and Clinton as well.

I will agree that Clinton was not a bad President. Not a great one necessarily, but I think that the legacy of his years in office will help guide us in making that determination later on.

 

[chess9]

The constant comparison of the impeachment proceedings to the mere counting of ballots is inapposite and certainly unfounded. Impeachment was a case of a small group of House Republicans ramming through an anti-Clinton agenda which promptly ran into a buzz saw in the more moderate Senate. Furthermore, impeachment was folly done at taxpayer's expense. How many millions of dollars did the Republicans waste so they could subsequently lose 3 Senate seats and, what, 3 House seats, and probably the Presidency? How many of you now comparing counting the votes to impeachment were egging on the House? <my fly on your walls says:All of them!>

George Bush will still be el presidente after we REALLY count the ballots. But the real value of the recount will be the impetus it gives to States and Counties to fix their voting equipment, procedures, and laws. Florida is well overdue.

An added benefit, of course, will be the delight of Democrats in casting spells of illegitimacy upon the Bush presidency. All of which will further weaken the two party system, which may be the most salutory consequence of this tawdry affair. Without at least 3 or 4 minor parties squabbling like Elites in a politics thread, how can we claim to be a legitimate modern democracy?

 

[glenn1]

Chess... i'm not comparing the two events. What i'm comparing is the long-running fixation by the opposite side on the issue at hand. People were disgusted eventually by what was called &quot;scandal fatigue&quot;. What i am saying is that we will encounter the same phenomenon if this &quot;count every vote&quot; thing drags out to similar indeterminable lengths of time. The longer this goes on, i assert, the less people will care, even if you are 'right'. I'm not making a judgement of the propriety of the count argument at all, for or against either side.

 

[veryape]

Boberfet,what exactly am I in denial about? If you are implying that I don't realize Bush has already stolen the White House your wrong,I realize this. Denial would be me believing justice could ever prevail with a bunch of partisan hacks making key decisions for something which is supposed to be decided by the majority of the people,not the courts.

Don't lecture me on the electoral college as I know its how this election is and was decided andc thats not where my argument lies,it lies in the fact that the ussc decided this election,not the electors who were rightfully chosen by the people. Of course you will repeat the same trash you have since the beginning-all votes were counted-Gore lost,get over it-USSC is the law of the land-we don't elect the president by the popular vote-Hand recounts are not accurate.

I'm certain that most Americans would have liked to know who really got the most votes in Florida and would have been willing to wait to find out if Bush would have just stopped interfering. So stop trying to speak for America! I'm not evenso sure you speak for all republicans. I'm sure we will find out when the electors votes are opened in January

Unless of course they are all partisan and do not care what the people really want.

[edit]Boberfet,this post was not all directed at you,just the first sentence or so. Just wanted to make sure you don't think i'm flaming you or anything.

 

[etech]

fragarific
>1) I still see in many posts that a lot of people are still condemning Clinton for getting a little &quot;frisky&quot; in the oval office. You know, Clinton was the best president this country has had in ages, possibly ever... and if gettin' some tail kept him doing a great job, I'm all for it.

Clinton was condemned for commiting perjury. His bad judgement for haveing sex with an intern is just an insight into his character. What else has Clinton done in the last 8 years?

>2) People seem to be expecting a second depression simply because Bush was elected. Luckily for us, the constitution does provide a fairly reliable system of checks and balances to keep any one person from totally ruining the country.

People are expecting a recession because the democrats have had control of the economy for so long. It started at least 6 months ago and is now showing up in the stock market. Only the foolish and uninformed will blame it on Pres. Bush. I agree the media will be sure to blame it on him though.

>3) 4 years isnt that long. we survived reagan, we survived sr, we can survive dubya as well.

We survived Clinton, we will do better with President Bush. We almost did not survive Carter or Johnson.


Chess9, you are still whining. The impetus for Florida to fix their voting system is there without the need for MORE recounts. If you keep trying to make up reasons it weakens what little arguments you think you have.

 

[glenn1]

&quot;All of which will further weaken the two party system, which may be the most salutory consequence of this tawdry affair. Without at least 3 or 4 minor parties squabbling like Elites in a politics thread, how can we claim to be a legitimate modern democracy?&quot;

Chess, i would argue that the number of parties is really irrelevant... i don't care if there 2 or 20, so long as one of them did a reasonable job of representing my views. It would do me no good simply for a third party such as The Greens to rise to challenge the status quo, since they certainly do not support the same goals that i would.

People such as me whose political beliefs do not neatly fit into one or more of the prevailing ones of the day are put in the difficult position of voting for &quot;the lesser of two evils,&quot; or voting for an extreme longshot candidate in hopes of keeping one of the major parties &quot;honest.&quot; In a sense, that's what i did this election. I voted for Forbes in the Primaries, and Harry Browne in the general. Not because i'm a true Libertarian believer, but because i have political views that split right down the middle between conservatism and libertarianism.

Perhaps that's why candidates like McCain (and perhaps someday, Powell) seem to draw such broad and diverse crowds. They typically are very light on particulars in articulating their political beliefs and what policies they would pursue (at least in my opinion), but that allows almost anyone to attribute to them whatever views they will.

For that reason, while i wasn't particularly impressed by most of the campaign promises made by either Gore or Bush this year, i do give them credit for being willing to lay out clearly and openly what they wished to accomplish.

 

[Michael]

BoberFett - I think that it was 99.? that voted for someone other than Libertarian. I think that the Green party and the Reform Party both outdrew them. I would rank the Libertarian party as an extreme fringe party with the Communist Party on the opposite side of the Libertarians.

Everyone is entitled to belong to and vote for whatever political party they wish. I would prefer to be involved in one of the two main parties because I want my vote to actually count. I'm not just talking about the election night vote, I'm talking about the primaries and the conventions where the main themes and initiatives are decided.

Michael

 

[chess9]

Glenn:

You strengthened my argument for me.

The two parties do not represent the diversity of interests in our country, but they have managed to maintain a monopoly on political power. (I think the new Attorney General should look into the problem.) You voted for a third party candidate for that reason. Some voted for Nader for that reason. This is SOP in most countries. In America, the 5% threshhold for campaign matching funds acts as a brake on the creation and growth of third party candidates. We need more third party candidates AND runoff voting as Dabanshee has suggested.

Etech:

I wouldn't have started this thread if I had known that it would grate so badly on your one remaining nerve. I am truly sorry for exposing you to the perilous realities of political life. Do we need to pass the plate so you can afford the counseling this trauma has caused? I've already contributed my two cents.

I guess the Republicans fear a re-count more than they feared losing the election. But then, it's bad enough to have a bumbling red neck for a President, let alone an illegitimate bumbling red neck. Sic transit gloria.

 

[etech]

Chess9, sometime I would like to see a post from you without a lie in it. Maybe you can post one on Christmas as a present for the board.

Gore lost.
I only hope you have the money to get the help you need to get in accepting that. Do we need to take up a collection for you?


Your two cents was counterfeit, as were many of the dimpled chads in Florida.


Posted before but still apropro.

If there is the need to get away from the two party system a place to start would be in removing the &quot;vote by party&quot; check box on ballots. I always vote for each person based on whom I think would be best suited for the office. It seems that voting by party is detrimental to that and the establishment of other parties.

 

[fragarific]

Have they sealed them yet? I've been out of it.