Republicans want to seal the Florida ballots!

[AndrewR]

Harvey: You cannot understand the basic statements I wrote above -- typical. Those liberal blinders are pretty thick, eh? Go piss in the wind -- it's about as effective and useful as your posting.

chess9: You're just upset because your idiot lawyer was completely wrong. Just tell him there are some CLE courses he can take to relearn the law. BTW, you may want to retain another one.

 

[Russ]

<< I believe Al Gore won this thing and will not stop debating it until I see otherwise >>



veryape,

Here, let me help you &quot;see&quot;.

Oh, the pain! The pain!

Russ, NCNE

 

[ride525]

<< Uh, duh, we already won! >>



Yeah, and the vote was 5-4.

But the question is, who really got the most votes in Florida?

 

[fragarific]

Ride, nice sig line

 

[K_Factor]

Another recount will prove nothing. The way some of you people talk, it sounds like you think that there can be a &quot;perfect count&quot;. That is complete and total BS. To put this in perspective, look at some numbers. There were over 6,000,000 votes cast in Florida. The final numbers show that Bush won by ~200, which is a whopping .00003%. Would it prove that Gore won if he comes out ahead by 200 after the next recount? The margin of error, regardless of the method of counting, is much larger than the margin or victory. Flipping a coin for the answer to who really won the state of Florida would be as accurate as another recount, and a whole lot faster...

 

[chess9]

K-Factor:

A bad case of apriori reasoning. You won't know till you count the ballots what the margin of victory for Gore is and whether it is inside or outside &quot;the margin of error&quot; which is still an undefined quantity, and probably rightly so.

Without counting dimpled chads, Gore will win because of the large number of uncounted votes in Duval, and Miami-Dade counties. The Re-Poop-Lickums here know that, and have a deadly fear of the truth.

 

[etech]

Chess, the ballots were counted, the ballots with dimples were not votes.

There are NO uncounted ballots in Florida

 

[veryape]

The question is not whether there can be a perfect recount,its can we tell who got more votes in Florida. Most republicans are not even disputing the fact that Gore got more votes,some are but most are not. They are using the line of defense that even though there were many more problems in dem counties then rep,due to the fact that the dem machines are older due to less money and ballot problems,there can be no remedy until the next election so tough luck for Gore. I just cannot stomach that.

Who are any of you to say its in the best interest of the country not to count the votes by hand. It may not be in your best interest but it is in mine.

 

[fragarific]

etech,

The ballots that were for Bush and were not counted for him are uncounted!

The ballots that were for Gore that were not counted for him are uncounted!

 

[K_Factor]

OK chess9, I will admit that &quot;the margin of error&quot; is about as defined as &quot;determining the intent of the voter&quot;. If votes with dimples are aloud to count as a vote, then a vote that registered with a clear hole and has a dimple must count as an overvote and be thrown away. It amazes me that you are so sure that Gore was cheated and actually won the state of Florida. The fact is that Florida was very close, and there had to be a winner and a loser. If it was a football game, Bush would be ahead 30-29, and have the ball at his own 2 yard line with time running out. Can you blame him for taking a knee, given the fact that the other team was trying to get more time put on the clock, extra time outs, 5 downs, ...?

 

[fragarific]

Thats why there are referee reviews. To stop someone from stealing a game on a bad call!

<edit> good analogy though

 

[K_Factor]

And that, fragarific, is exactly what the US Supreme Court did.

 

[Russ]

<< Thats why there are referee reviews! To stop someone from stealing a game on a bad call! >>



Yep, they are called the United States Supreme Court and they prevented Gore from doing precisely that.

Russ, NCNE

 

[fragarific]

and a 2-pt reversal for Russ.

I'll be back later.

 

[chess9]

K-Factor: He didn't &quot;take&quot; a knee, he &quot;gave&quot; a knee. The Supreme Court move was a blatant foul! Ugh, I hate these sports metaphors.

Also, &quot;margin of error&quot; is completely undefined. At least intent of the voter is a start.

But why object to the count? You won't be doing it, will you? It won't be your money spent on the count, will it? What's the harm? The fear the truth is lurking out there? Don't worry, whatever result comes out, the Republicans will spin it as a victory for them for any number of reasons. They have managed to turn the simple act of counting votes into a circus so they can put their man into the Presidency. Must be a lot at stake for them, eh? You know, oil depletion allowances raised for the oil tycoon supporters of Bush, ad nauseum. They beat Gore unfairly, and now they want legitimacy too. Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen. You can only be a virgin once, unless you're Madonna.

 

[Russ]

<< The Supreme Court move was a blatant foul! >>



Yep, the Florida Supreme Court was way out of line.

Russ, NCNE

 

[rmeijer]

Both the FLSC and the USSC are partisan. That much is clear. However:

I think the Florida SC has been consistant in its rulings: it attempts to give the benefit of the doubt to the voter. This has benefitted both Republicans (Martin and Seminole), and Democrats (recounts, in general). They even went so far as to overrule Harris' 'impartial' judgement, all to give the benefit to the voter. Every case was close to unanimous.

The US SC, however, has acted in an inconsistant manner. They have ruled on the equal protection clause only rarely, and never in a case where malicious intent was not demonstrated. Their ruling went against their mantra of staying out of State affairs, and the court was deeply divided over what their ruling should be.

The US SC had to decide, but they were in unchartered waters. They made a hasty decision in which only history will either vindicate or condemn them. Their ruling, whether right or wrong, will always been seen as out of place.

On the other hand, the FL SC had a long history of solving such election matters and could rule with confidence. I do not think that History will look at their ruling as 'out-of-place', or partisian, for that reason alone.

 

[~zonker~]

The 'truth' is that AlGore has conceded, for reasons that are obvious. Accept that fact and live with it. GW will be the next president.

Recounting the ballots by whatever means will not change that truth. Counting the ballots that have been manipultaed and counted and handled countless times may be an interesting excersize, but will serve no useful purpose.

If the results come out different, the counting process will again be questioned, ad nauseum. What is the goal? Do you want to generate a governmental crisis that every American should be trying to learn from and preventing in the future instead of reviving. If the results some out the same it was a waste of time.

I believe that the election process will be examined closely and hopefully events like this will be a sad memory for everyone...

 

[chess9]

rmeijer:

Truly awesome post. I'm impressed!

Zonker:

So, counting the ballots will precipitate a &quot;governmental crisis&quot;, eh? Why?

Do you have so little faith in our democracy that the mere counting of ballots will destroy us? Seems a bit far-fetched, Zonker.

 

[~zonker~]

chess... I think you would use the results of a recount that changed the apparent winner to diminish the power of the presidency. Why?

i would come back again and question your method of counting and the turmoil continues...

You haven't answered my question... What is the goal?

 

[RGN]

Bush lost the vote my ass!! :disgust:

 

[veryape]

The goal is in fact to invalidate Bush as president and prove Gore won. No bones about that. Too bad if you do not like the fact that votes cast for Gore that were not counted,even though intent is clear,will be counted. Say it will be unfair all you want. It won't change who is in office right? so what do you care? I want to know and shove in you repu blicans faces who truly won. Its our right to know who had moree people vote for them in Florida. I could care less if the thought of a constitutional crisis or any other crisis scares you,its our right and it will cause no crisis as republicans have tried to scare the public into believing. It will only prove what Gore has said all along and vindicate him of all the badmouthing,at least from some people with reasoning w/o partisan. Now if it were done before the electors voted then..........

 

[chess9]

Zonker: Yes, we're entitled to know who really won the vote. Historians want to know, the news media want to know, and even most Americans want to know. The only people who don't want to know are those who are afraid of the truth.

You wouldn't be afraid of the truth would you?

And, haven't you spent the last eight years diminishing the Presidencey? Ah, consistency thou art a jewel.

VeryApe: Ditto to that, man.

 

[~zonker~]

chess... I have not been trying to diminish the presidency. I think Clinton is a good moderator and phenominal politician who had the character to diminish the presidency without anyone's help.

I'm not afraid of the truth, I'm concerned about people who refuse to accept the truth and attempt to change it. The certified vote totals are currently available, if you want to thumb your nose at the process that's fine. But the truth according to the laws of the land is easy to find. We already know... you seem unable to comprehend this.

 

[etech]

It's really quite simple, Gov. Bush won and will be the 43rd President.

That is what will go down in the history books, democratic whining,crying, whimpering and knashing of teeth will be of no avail.

You can claim that the votes were not counted, but you should know by now that they were. They were counted by the standards of the State of Florida on the day of the elections. They were counted by the machine readers. They were then recounted by the machines.