Responsible gun owner handles marital conflict resolution the mature way... or maybe not

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
oh yeah? Im hostile and disrespectful? You are perpetuating a lie about guns that will result in peoples deaths and you call me hostile? Get the fuck out of here.


Sounds like you missed the point that was being made entirely. Pro-gun posters aren't villains, nor are you a hero for discussing this subject on the internet. Simmer down now, you righteous great white knight trying to save lives.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
Sounds like you missed the point that was being made entirely. Pro-gun posters aren't villains, nor are you a hero for discussing this subject on the internet. Simmer down now, you righteous great white knight trying to save lives.

Of course pro gun people aren't villains! The problem is every pro gun person is a good guy until they aren't. Come up with a solution and you too can be a hero!
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Would you actually believe him if he said yes?

Don't know. I'd want to know the story. I am familiar with looking into defensive gun use where some analyses looked at described incidents and found many were actually describing crimes. I would imagine also that those prone to bring a gun into a conflict are those prone to getting into conflicts where a gun may be useful.

But obviously there are scenarios where a gun would be helpful. In the general case, the odds are more likely that a gun will cause harm. More likely than either is that it won't be used at all.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,803
581
126
Of course pro gun people aren't villains! The problem is every pro gun person is a good guy until they aren't. Come up with a solution and you too can be a hero!
wtf is that even supposed to mean? Completely asinine rhetoric. Everyone is a good <fill in the blank> until they aren't.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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Don't know. I'd want to know the story. I am familiar with looking into defensive gun use where some analyses looked at described incidents and found many were actually describing crimes. I would imagine also that those prone to bring a gun into a conflict are those prone to getting into conflicts where a gun may be useful.

But obviously there are scenarios where a gun would be helpful. In the general case, the odds are more likely that a gun will cause harm. More likely than either is that it won't be used at all.

Fair enough. Thanks.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Have you used them in a fashion to protect you or loved ones from bodily harm?


I've never used my guns in self defense. Also never murdered or attempted to do so with them. I also haven't used them to commit suicide or attempt to. My guns have been used to put holes in paper more than anything.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I've never used my guns in self defense. Also never murdered or attempted to do so with them. I also haven't used them to commit suicide or attempt to. My guns have been used to put holes in paper more than anything.

Thanks for clarifying.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,128
2,167
136
Who says these gun owners are responsible and If they acquired this gun legally? For all we know bubba could have gotten the gun illegally from his local meth dealer. Find that out and then we can discuss it.

IMO we need to focus on the dramatic increase in knife attacks and deaths in the UK. I heard they want to begin selling dull knives and license knife sharpeners.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
Who says these gun owners are responsible and If they acquired this gun legally? For all we know bubba could have gotten the gun illegally from his local meth dealer. Find that out and then we can discuss it.

IMO we need to focus on the dramatic increase in knife attacks and deaths in the UK. I heard they want to begin selling dull knives and license knife sharpeners.

I'm sure you did hear that. Most bubble dwellers uncritically accept what they are being told so long as it agrees with them.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
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In an overall statistical sense, yes, that is true. But since deaths caused by gun ownership fit in to certain patterns, it's also possible to self-screen. So, for example, you might not want to have a gun in your house if a) you have young children, especially young boys, b) you have a history of depression or other mental illness, c) you have anger management issues (could be depression, see b) or d) you are in an acrimonious marriage, like the guy under discussion in this thread (no way she shot him over a porn subscription alone, pretty obvious this went way back.)

The other important aspect of this that a gun for self-protection isn't necessarily about actually stopping someone from harming you. That is the idea in the gun owner's head, but isn't the primary benefit. The benefit is actually that it may make you feel safer. There is value in just feeling safe and secure.

There are some interesting issues in there. How valid your points are kind-of depends on what the argument is actually about (which is not at all clear to me).

I partially see your point about "self-screening", except that, logically, surely most of those who ended up using their guns on themselves, or being shot by another member of their household, believed that they _did_ so 'self screen'? I don't know how many people own guns at home with the thought of 'I know I get very depressed and feel like killing myself, but if I do it will be good to have a gun to hand'. Such self-screening is going to be imperfect, otherwise people wouldn't be dying, surely?

With the story in this thread, it's not at all clear what was going on, the story is bizarre - could even be the onset of dementia or something, maybe? If the marriage had always been that troubled I just find it a bit surprising there hadn't been publicly-visible, if not lethal, violence long ago. I don't feel like there's enough information to know what to make of it. (Though hard not to agree with the point posters have made about older people and outdated technology.)

With the 'feeling safer' thing, that doesn't really settle anything - people can have all sorts of maladaptive techniques to try and cope with psychological issues, that doesn't mean those are sensible ways to do it. Often such things will be regarded negatively as a way of not dealing with the underlying psychological problem. They might actually make things worse in the long run, reinforcing the mistaken beliefs.

I guess the point of the argument is that on a population-wide level, allowing people to have guns at home has more negative outcomes than positive. On the level of public-health it does more harm than good, regardless of whether any individual is right-or-wrong in their judgement about what it does in their particular case.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
IMO we need to focus on the dramatic increase in knife attacks and deaths in the UK.

I've been wondering about that issue myself. Several things really puzzle me about it.


For one thing, I think it's because I'm getting old, but with these sorts of issues I constantly feel bemused by the time-scales people use when deciding there's a 'trend' or some sort of 'crisis'. The media here is going on relentlessly about the 'knife crime' or 'murder' 'epidemic' and 'crisis', but to me the figures don't seem to justify the sense of novelty or urgency about it.

Every single stabbing in London now gets onto the national news. But when, for example, they breathlessly declare 'this is the 35th fatal stabbing in London this year', that only translates to ten a month, which is exactly the same rate as 2018 and 2017, and indeed, not massively higher than most years for the last few decades. And in those previous years the media didn't report every single incident the way they are currently doing.

I agree the murder rate is too damn high, in absolute terms, and knife-killings in particular. But what I don't get, and this has got to be to do with being old and how one's perception of time changes with age, is the sense that this is some new 'crisis'. It's bad, but it's been bad for most of my life. I've always thought it was too high - we should do better (I blame neo-liberalism, aka 'Thatcher').

The second thing I find really puzzling is that while knife-homicide in particular has increased (and most UK knife-crime is in London), the overall murder rate in London is not particularly high. It's significantly lower than it was in the 80s and 90s, in fact. It seems as if knife murders are displacing other forms of murder. It's almost as if people are stabbing people to death instead of bashing them over the head or something. It's odd. I don't understand what is going on there, and the media hasn't even acknowledged that point yet alone explained it. Unless other forms of murder are declining due to improved emergency medical care meaning people are less likely to die from things other than stabbings?

I'm confused how to reconcile this data (and bear in mind London's population has grown by maybe 25% since 1990, so the actual murder _rate_ is even lower for the later years, a graph of the actual rate rather than absolute numbers would have a significant downward trend super-imposed on it)




With the knife-specific figures (in non-embeddable charts!) in this link (that seem to show a slightly different pattern, with a much more dramatic rise in the last couple of years)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42749089

It's quite confusing, and it irritates the heck out of me how useless the media is at properly analysing such issues.


Edit - yeah, the media is just _rubbish_ at thinking or talking about things properly. There are a few tiny islands of thoughtfullness in the BBC, but even the Beeb is largely moronic.
 
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