Responsible gun owners don't have to brandish their guns or fire warnings, right?

[rudeguy]

In high school I hung out with dudes that would somewhat often go out either individually or in some group size and F with people just like that. It's not just 'Oh look they're crossing the street, let me greet them and wish them a happy day'. It's, 'These mofo's are are looking right at me, laughing loudly, and basically intercepting me with a purpose'. If you've been in that situation(s) before, you know exactly what I'm talking about. They have zero reason to see you, motion towards you, all cross the street towards you, then when you start crossing over to what was their side of the street, they change course as you do and start veering back to their original side of the street. It's not a good situation to be in.

You never addressed my point.

What if one of them is legally carrying?

 

[rudeguy]

A holstered weapon has never been legally considered a threat.

The OP's intent was to threaten.

But that is here nor there. What if the person he just judged, thought that person has done nothing wrong, has a gun?

 

[werepossum]

The OP should be thankful now that he's no longer the biggest idiot in the thread. Exactly how is changing "use of force" to "use or threatened use of force" (the entirety of the law) going to sell firearms?

What, haven't you heard of the hordes of potential gun buyers who are only interested in brandishing?

 

[spidey07]

The OP's intent was to threaten.

But that is here nor there. What if the person he just judged, thought that person has done nothing wrong, has a gun?

What if they do? If that person shoots they are guilty of murder because there is no threat nor reasonable assumption of such.

What he's talking about is why brandishing should be OK as it would be a deterrent. The clear disparity of force making a b-line for somebody with verbal threats would be a good shoot without any brandishing anyway.

You're falling for the liberal "blood in the streets, wild west everywhere" fallacy that never happens.

Brandishing is normally just showing that you are armed. It is totally different than drawing and actually pointing at somebody. If I ever have to draw and point my weapon at somebody the trigger is getting pulled as soon as the muzzle covers them.

It would be nice to legally be able to draw and be at a low and ready position which is what this seems to address.

 

[chucky2]

You never addressed my point.

What if one of them is legally carrying?

Then they can brandish as well I guess. In which case, what I'd likely do in that situation is stop walking, hand on pistol when they were getting close, and just stand my ground. If they keep walking that's good. If they don't, then a simple 'Evening, can I help you guys with something?' would suffice to see where they want to take this.

Thing is, if he's legally carrying, the chances are pretty low for the situation escalating. People who legally carry by far and large aren't looking to use it to their advantage offensively. I'd rather that group of guys all be carrying legally than be a group of guys who might be carrying but not legally.

 

[rudeguy]

Then they can brandish as well I guess. In which case, what I'd likely do in that situation is stop walking, hand on pistol when they were getting close, and just stand my ground. If they keep walking that's good. If they don't, then a simple 'Evening, can I help you guys with something?' would suffice to see where they want to take this.

Thing is, if he's legally carrying, the chances are pretty low for the situation escalating. People who legally carry by far and large aren't looking to use it to their advantage offensively. I'd rather that group of guys all be carrying legally than be a group of guys who might be carrying but not legally.

So if you are walking down the street to meet a friend at a restaurant when suddenly some starts eyeballing you and reaching for a gun, you are just going to put your hand on your gun? No. You would draw as would I. If he didn't make any further moves it might stop there but if he pulled it would be over. I would shoot him.

 

[rudeguy]

I'm talking about both really. If I'm walking down one side of the street and on the other side 40m away a few guys move over with that 'We're about to F with this dude look/actions', I'd rather not wait until they're 30' away and then just pull on them. I'd much rather calmly and deliberately take my shirt, move it out of the way, and make a visible and clear effort to ensure my pistol is where I expect it to be...and that right there is brandishing, at least in my book. If that causes them to second guess their 'fun' activity and move out of my path of travel, good. If it doesn't then it was going to be a problem anyways. The other side to that is if I hadn't done that, and waited until they within a pull scenario distance, now it's a big WTF surprise. That may sound like a good thing, and maybe it is sometimes, but I think sometimes it's not. Really I think it's situation dependent.

And by the way...you would be committing a felony in your state.

http://www.myillinoisdefenselawyer.com/il-criminal-charges/assault/

 

[Nebor]

Umm...

Brandishing because someone crossed the street and you don't like how they look? Really?

So what if one of them is legally concealed carrying? You just threatened him with a firearm and now you are dead.

As I've said before, the kind of people who you should be worried about aren't going to be legally carrying, and you shouldn't have to worry about them calling the police because some guy unholstered a handgun. Worst case, you scare some "innocent" hood rats, best case, you present a hardened target to some hardened criminals and they decide to wait for someone softer to come along.

If you cross the street to avoid someone, and they cross to intercept you, you'd be a fool not to draw your weapon because all context clues point to you being in imminent danger.

 

[WackyDan]

Warning shots are not legal I think in most states/locals and is a stupid concept period.

Brandishing is not always a bad thing though the context is almost always taken to mean something bad.

You can draw your weapon on someone provided you are convinced you meet the criteria for self defensive use of deadly force. If for whatever reason you do not fire your firearm and the threat deescalates (matter of seconds) then congrats, you have used your firearm defensively without firing a shot... or needing a lawyer. This would be considered a legitimate brandishing of your weapon.

That said, if you adhere to what your state defines as justified use of deadly force, by time you reach the justification to draw your weapon you are still in the need to fire to preserve your life or that of another.

 

[chucky2]

So if you are walking down the street to meet a friend at a restaurant when suddenly some starts eyeballing you and reaching for a gun, you are just going to put your hand on your gun? No. You would draw as would I. If he didn't make any further moves it might stop there but if he pulled it would be over. I would shoot him.

Reaching for an open gun? Yeah, I'm going to reach also. Reaching behind them...how do I know it's a gun and not an itch they're scratching? I would not draw in that case. I don't want people to know I carry - I'm not whipping out my pistol every move someone makes. If he pulls his gun then yeah at a minimum when I see he's pulling I'm going to be asking him what he's doing and discretely and fastly as possible reaching for mine. If he shoots me what's your point? He's committed murder for no reason. That has nothing to do with our posts or this thread.

And by the way...you would be committing a felony in your state.

http://www.myillinoisdefenselawyer.com/il-criminal-charges/assault/

Everything is illegal in IL...

 

[PrinceofWands]

That is not universally true, presenting your firearm can act as a deterrent, ending the situation without any violence from either party. However, it is true that if the other party is sufficiently armed, it could lead to escelation.

Yes, it can go either way. While walking my dog through a small park area one evening a man came suddenly out of the bushes at me. When my dog started bark/growl/alerting he lifted his shirt and reached for his waist. I immediately drew and held at low ready. He stopped, stumbled, turned and ran.

Now, I can't say that he definitely had a weapon, nor that he was ABSOLUTELY going to injure me...but it seemed reasonable that's what was going on, and I'm still here unharmed, so in the end I'm comfortable with my choice. Had I waited to know for sure he could easily have harmed me before I could have gotten my weapon into play. Certainly not worth the risk.

 

[rudeguy]

Reaching for an open gun? Yeah, I'm going to reach also. Reaching behind them...how do I know it's a gun and not an itch they're scratching? I would not draw in that case. I don't want people to know I carry - I'm not whipping out my pistol every move someone makes. If he pulls his gun then yeah at a minimum when I see he's pulling I'm going to be asking him what he's doing and discretely and fastly as possible reaching for mine. If he shoots me what's your point? He's committed murder for no reason. That has nothing to do with our posts or this thread.



Everything is illegal in IL...

You dont get it do you? I put you in his position and the real you committed murder.

Do you see why brandishing is a bad idea?

 

[rudeguy]

As I've said before, the kind of people who you should be worried about aren't going to be legally carrying, and you shouldn't have to worry about them calling the police because some guy unholstered a handgun. Worst case, you scare some "innocent" hood rats, best case, you present a hardened target to some hardened criminals and they decide to wait for someone softer to come along.

If you cross the street to avoid someone, and they cross to intercept you, you'd be a fool not to draw your weapon because all context clues point to you being in imminent danger.

No.

Worst case you just made an innocent encounter a deadly situation. You are smarter than that. You know this.

 

[chucky2]

You dont get it do you? I put you in his position and the real you committed murder.

Do you see why brandishing is a bad idea?

No, you don't get it. No where in my scenario am I just reaching for my pistol, pulling it out, and shooting someone. In my scenario I'm on one side of the street, a group or even a single person is on the other, I see they see me, they now cross over to my side and I determine they are threatening to me by their behavior. I now move to the middle of the street or the other side of the street, and they decide when they see me doing this to now intercept me. I still haven't drawn, but, I probably am brandishing at that point. At some point I've stopped and am now in a defensive posture clearly with my hand on my pistol.

We have now arrived at you putting me in what I've considered the aggressors shoes. As this aggressor, I am now intercepting this person, this person is brandishing a firearm, I am continuing to walk towards this person, this person has stopped walking towards me and is clearly on the defensive, and your response to this is I should pull out my own firearm and shoot him?

Lets give your argument the benefit of I somehow haven't realized that I'm being considered a threat to this person until I get within range that I can see this person is carrying and oh look at that, now brandishing but not yet having pulled. How do you arrive at I now pull and shoot him, rather than choose a much better course of action and either now stop myself and talk it out, or, just move away from such a person which I can clearly do and move on my merry way?

I guess my point here really is an argument can almost be made for anything...one can create any scenario to fit their argument. What my point is, and I'm sorry if I haven't been clear/verbose enough, is that being allowed to legally brandish likely will prevent far more shootings/altercations than the limited number of two good guys misreading each other and one gunning the other - although I freely admit, it's going to happen.

 

[Nebor]

No.

Worst case you just made an innocent encounter a deadly situation. You are smarter than that. You know this.

There are no innocent encounters that go down like that. If you add in another individual or more closing from the rear, you have a very typical and dangerous robbery setup. Same thing if you're at a gas station late at night and someone approaches you out of nowhere on foot. There's no innocence to it. It's get the fuck away from me or get a gun in the face time.

Your best weapon is good situational awareness. If you're willing to let some thugs run right up on you just because they don't have any visible weapons, you drastically reduce your chance of emerging unscathed.

 

[Nebor]

No, you don't get it. No where in my scenario am I just reaching for my pistol, pulling it out, and shooting someone. In my scenario I'm on one side of the street, a group or even a single person is on the other, I see they see me, they now cross over to my side and I determine they are threatening to me by their behavior. I now move to the middle of the street or the other side of the street, and they decide when they see me doing this to now intercept me. I still haven't drawn, but, I probably am brandishing at that point. At some point I've stopped and am now in a defensive posture clearly with my hand on my pistol.

We have now arrived at you putting me in what I've considered the aggressors shoes. As this aggressor, I am now intercepting this person, this person is brandishing a firearm, I am continuing to walk towards this person, this person has stopped walking towards me and is clearly on the defensive, and your response to this is I should pull out my own firearm and shoot him?

Lets give your argument the benefit of I somehow haven't realized that I'm being considered a threat to this person until I get within range that I can see this person is carrying and oh look at that, now brandishing but not yet having pulled. How do you arrive at I now pull and shoot him, rather than choose a much better course of action and either now stop myself and talk it out, or, just move away from such a person which I can clearly do and move on my merry way?

I guess my point here really is an argument can almost be made for anything...one can create any scenario to fit their argument. What my point is, and I'm sorry if I haven't been clear/verbose enough, is that being allowed to legally brandish likely will prevent far more shootings/altercations than the limited number of two good guys misreading each other and one gunning the other - although I freely admit, it's going to happen.

Your argument is well reasoned and sensible. It follows traditional "shout, shove, shoot" escalation of force and puts you in the best possible position in a bad situation.

The odds of two "good guys" ending up in a situation are very low, since "good guys" don't go around menacing one another and presenting themselves as thugs\assailants.

 

[spidey07]

There are no innocent encounters that go down like that. If you add in another individual or more closing from the rear, you have a very typical and dangerous robbery setup. Same thing if you're at a gas station late at night and someone approaches you out of nowhere on foot. There's no innocence to it. It's get the fuck away from me or get a gun in the face time.

Your best weapon is good situational awareness. If you're willing to let some thugs run right up on you just because they don't have any visible weapons, you drastically reduce your chance of emerging unscathed.

BINGO!

You don't just walk up to somebody unannounced, especially more than one on one. Well, anybody with good intentions doesn't or anybody that doesn't want to get shot. Somebody bent on a robbery or worse does for the element of surprise and catch the victim off guard.

Guy out of nowhere coming up to you - "Hey man, got a few bucks for some gas?" = about to get robbed, mugged, or worse.

 

[spidey07]

Your argument is well reasoned and sensible. It follows traditional "shout, shove, shoot" escalation of force and puts you in the best possible position in a bad situation.

The odds of two "good guys" ending up in a situation are very low, since "good guys" don't go around menacing one another and presenting themselves as thugs\assailants.

Good guys, aka, lawfully carrying a firearm don't go looking for trouble and would easily say "whoah, weapon down I mean you no harm and will be on my way kind sir"

Thug? Not so much. Multiple thugs in a group? No way. Until you've been in that situation you don't understand.

There's about 6-7 times in my life that I felt like there was a need to brandish and if necessary be ready to fire.

 

[rudeguy]

No, you don't get it. No where in my scenario am I just reaching for my pistol, pulling it out, and shooting someone. In my scenario I'm on one side of the street, a group or even a single person is on the other, I see they see me, they now cross over to my side and I determine they are threatening to me by their behavior. I now move to the middle of the street or the other side of the street, and they decide when they see me doing this to now intercept me. I still haven't drawn, but, I probably am brandishing at that point. At some point I've stopped and am now in a defensive posture clearly with my hand on my pistol.

We have now arrived at you putting me in what I've considered the aggressors shoes. As this aggressor, I am now intercepting this person, this person is brandishing a firearm, I am continuing to walk towards this person, this person has stopped walking towards me and is clearly on the defensive, and your response to this is I should pull out my own firearm and shoot him?

Lets give your argument the benefit of I somehow haven't realized that I'm being considered a threat to this person until I get within range that I can see this person is carrying and oh look at that, now brandishing but not yet having pulled. How do you arrive at I now pull and shoot him, rather than choose a much better course of action and either now stop myself and talk it out, or, just move away from such a person which I can clearly do and move on my merry way?

I guess my point here really is an argument can almost be made for anything...one can create any scenario to fit their argument. What my point is, and I'm sorry if I haven't been clear/verbose enough, is that being allowed to legally brandish likely will prevent far more shootings/altercations than the limited number of two good guys misreading each other and one gunning the other - although I freely admit, it's going to happen.

I understand your point. And I'm not saying that it's not a valid point. I'm trying to get you to think of scenarios other than "obvious bad guy attacks me". My dream is for every good guy to be armed. I want bad guys to fear good guys instead of the other way around. But part of arming everyone is making sure that good guys don't get a bad reputation.

I try to imagine what things would look like from a camera with no audio. If it only captured you reaching for your gun without the bad guy making an aggressive move, how would that look? It would make Zimmerman sound like a hero compared to you. Then we would have another shit storm of gun hating.

I'm also a bit concerned because I look like a bad guy to some people. I'm a big guy, shaved head, big goatee...I don't want someone drawing down on me because they don't like how I look. Because I promise I won't wait to talk things out if someone pulls a gun on me for no reason.

 

[spidey07]

I understand your point. And I'm not saying that it's not a valid point. I'm trying to get you to think of scenarios other than "obvious bad guy attacks me". My dream is for every good guy to be armed. I want bad guys to fear good guys instead of the other way around. But part of arming everyone is making sure that good guys don't get a bad reputation.

I try to imagine what things would look like from a camera with no audio. If it only captured you reaching for your gun without the bad guy making an aggressive move, how would that look? It would make Zimmerman sound like a hero compared to you. Then we would have another shit storm of gun hating.

I'm also a bit concerned because I look like a bad guy to some people. I'm a big guy, shaved head, big goatee...I don't want someone drawing down on me because they don't like how I look. Because I promise I won't wait to talk things out if someone pulls a gun on me for no reason.

You're playing devils advocate and I can appreciate that. I'm also a big guy, 6'3, 210lbs, not likely as thick as you. As a big guy you know you have to watch your actions and be careful because folks will be spooked.

What you're missing is somebody pulling a gun on you has nothing to do with your looks and everything to do with you actions, body language and attitude. If it comes to the point that somebody shows you their weapon, YOU ARE WAY TO FUCKING CLOSE AND NEED TO BACK OFF RIGHT THE FUCK NOW ALONG WITH YOUR BUDDIES, nothing but death if you come any closer.

You may be a gentle giant like me, but others don't perceive you that way. I also doubt you would put yourself in a situation to get shot. I assume everybody is armed and as such don't make them be scared of me.

 

[rudeguy]

You're playing devils advocate and I can appreciate that. I'm also a big guy, 6'3, 210lbs, not likely as thick as you. As a big guy you know you have to watch your actions and be careful because folks will be spooked.

What you're missing is somebody pulling a gun on you has nothing to do with your looks and everything to do with you actions, body language and attitude. If it comes to the point that somebody shows you their weapon, YOU ARE WAY TO FUCKING CLOSE AND NEED TO BACK OFF RIGHT THE FUCK NOW ALONG WITH YOUR BUDDIES, nothing but death if you come any closer.

You may be a gentle giant like me, but others don't perceive you that way. I also doubt you would put yourself in a situation to get shot. I assume everybody is armed and as such don't make them be scared of me.

I'm very careful when I'm out. I try to be very aware of my surroundings and the people around me. But I can also be a total moron. I get lost easily. I could just picture myself wandering around trying to find a restaurant, crossing the street a few times while trying to get where I need to go. It would make a shitty day if I saw someone pulling a gun on me because they thought I was a bad guy.

I don't want to be in a deadly situation so I avoid putting myself in one. Maybe it's because I can rely on my fists, but I don't see why I would show my gun just because some punks got near me. The second my gun comes into play, even if it's holstered, the situation is now potentially deadly.

 

[chucky2]

I understand your point. And I'm not saying that it's not a valid point. I'm trying to get you to think of scenarios other than "obvious bad guy attacks me". My dream is for every good guy to be armed. I want bad guys to fear good guys instead of the other way around. But part of arming everyone is making sure that good guys don't get a bad reputation.

I try to imagine what things would look like from a camera with no audio. If it only captured you reaching for your gun without the bad guy making an aggressive move, how would that look? It would make Zimmerman sound like a hero compared to you. Then we would have another shit storm of gun hating.

I'm also a bit concerned because I look like a bad guy to some people. I'm a big guy, shaved head, big goatee...I don't want someone drawing down on me because they don't like how I look. Because I promise I won't wait to talk things out if someone pulls a gun on me for no reason.

Yeah, I understand. I understand that there are scenarios where someone is going to feel threatened, brandish, and brandishing is going to lead to an escalation that probably could have been avoided had they not brandished. And while I recognize that being bad, and unavoidable in some number of those cases if this law hadn't passed, I think that will be outweighed by the number of events that are deescalated because someone knows they can brandish.

Time will either prove me wrong or right.

 

[spidey07]

Stand your ground laws prevented innocent victims protecting themselves from prosecution.

All the Wild West shit didn't happen at all as predicted by liberals.

Funny how law abiding citizens follow the law. Criminals don't.

 

[chucky2]

Yeah, well, animals are good about using just enough law to know how to exploit it. So prepare yourself for them to do just that. This won't be 100% good, it'll be abused at some point some time.

 

[spidey07]

Yeah, well, animals are good about using just enough law to know how to exploit it. So prepare yourself for them to do just that. This won't be 100% good, it'll be abused at some point some time.

True.

But it saves one children's lives it's ok. That I have been assured of.