Rethinking Marx

[SlingXShot]

To work and back I listen to conservative radio shows (there is nothing else, no liberal point of view or even moderate radio shows .. almost none). I sometimes kind of agree, mostly disagree and sometimes completely disagree. The reason I listen to that side is I try to understand their point of view.. these radio hosts seem paranoid, like they need to relax, they think it is end of the world because of obama (socialism). It finally hit me about may be 2 weeks ago, why these conservatives are those same people at the top of corporate greed... those CEOs who just care about them selves. It was when obama gave his first interview to a middle east news organization. These republicans were shocked, like stabbing them with a knife multiple times. While I thought that was a great move on his part...since the middle east people hates us... To these conservatives, they don't care what happens to Europe, to Russia, to anything outside US. They are all about them selves and their country. They have no global point of view, they will let those outside rot...And it was confirmed. I have a buddy, who is in the army, goes to iraq and afghanistan all the time. We argued, since he supported mccain, and I said..obama trying to make US look friendly again... you know what he said. f em... they dont matter... look thats a very bad view..its something you should get slapped for ... i think may be how you were raised... think about it...which people you think are the best souls? those who try to help you all the time and don't do anything for them selves..or just take care of them selves...

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Socialist: You got way to much shit and your greedy. We are going to take your shit, and give it to people that need it more than you do. We are going to take your guns, also.

Capitalist: Huh??? (Pulls out gun, shoots Socialist in head.)


Socialism fails...

it's this kind of mentality that makes me wonder if the human race will last another 100 years.

Look back in history, back to the point when man started to walk on his hind legs, and tell me about some other kind of mentality that got us to where we are.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed


Let's hear your thoughts.

Socialism is pretty. You set your goals, and capitalism provides you the ride to get to them. Face the facts ste****ot, Socialism is easy, and that is why you are a socialist.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Cad,
I think arguing that socialism will fail because of human nature is awfully short-sighted given that our banking system just failed due to human greed. Not saying your stance is without merit, but I think that's a pretty terrible example to use, especially right now.

Eh? Are you confused? Just because something else(something you don't seem to understand anyway) isn't perfect has ZERO bearing on why socialism fails.

The point is that human nature can lead to failure under any system. That's why the point is invalid due to null correlation.

Yeap, don't blame the system when it's human natural and greed that caused the problem. In fact, I'd argue that under socialism, because fewer people (one central government) have the power, we will have bigger problem with human greed for money and power.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

The USSR was not a Socialist country. It was a State Capitalist system run by a dictatorship.

In a nutshell, this is why you fail miserably. You know nothing.

And before you make a comment about "adding" to the topic or explaining my position, nothing needs to be added or explained. Your quote speaks volumes for itself.

In other words you have no clue, but generally just want to disagree with anything.

Well, at least you did it without throwing a fit or swearing.

The term "State Capitalism" means nothing and has been used on and off by socialists, communists, capitalists and everything in-between for 150 years to mean a dozen different things. In other words, you can use the term to mean anything, and that's what people have done. Using amorphous concepts to create your fanciful interpretations to muddle history and reason is dumb and transparent.

You people love to create new fad words for your broken-down system and now you have resorted to using imprecise and undefinable words to obfuscate things further. Do you have any idea how monumentally foolish you look when you say the USSR was state capitalism when the very term 'state capitalism' was originally used by socialists to describe socialism? What's the next slogan going to be?

Besides you have to get with the times bro... many scholars today are using the term 'state capitalism' to describe countries such as France and Sweden. You better get your definitions in order!

Capitalism is a pretty simple concept and it's based on a few premises. Two of them are the ideas of private property and free markets. Of course the USSR had neither so qualifying capitalism with 'state' simply turns capitalism on its head and destroys any meaningful connection to the original concept... it's an oxymoron and attempting to paint a picture using such an anti-concept is nothing but intellectual suicide. Using an artificial term to demolish a legitimate concept thereby creating some sickly contradictory term full of disparate and incongruous is a silly little trick. Your credibility, if you had any to begin with, is zero.

Nor was the USSR a dictatorship after 1953. It was authoritarian or totalitarian, run by a group or party, much like China is today. Any definition of dictatorship that I know of is centered on an individual, and the USSR was very far from that post-Stalin.

What you statement tells me is you're engaged in a cover-up, consciously or not, by attempting to make reality fit your emotions. That's called rationalization, and when your words achieve nothing but the opposite of your alleged goals, you begin to seek false identities... such as the statement: "It [USSR] was a State Capitalist system run by a dictatorship."

Pitiful.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed


Let's hear your thoughts.

Socialism is pretty. You set your goals, and capitalism provides you the ride to get to them. Face the facts ste****ot, Socialism is easy, and that is why you are a socialist.

Please ,explain what is "easy" about Socialism. I have heard it called many things by right leaning folks, but this one is new to me.

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: SickBeast
First of all, socialism is necessary in a capitalist society as it acts as a safety net for the people who lose their shirts. It would take a very callous group of people to let their brethren starve to death just because they lost their job due to a layoff situation.

As for the comparisons to France, it's quite interesting. The French actually as much per hour as people in the US, but they work less hours per week. They wind up with a longer life expectancy and a higher quality of life.

For all the nay-sayers to socialism: Look to France as an example where it worked. Their system is about as far to the "left" as you can get without going to communism, yet they still have a strong country and an amazing society and culture.

France does not "work." France is more broken than the US.

Maybe in your opinion. They certainly have a stronger currency, and did not have as severe a market meltdown (or a mortgage crisis).

They're certainly not an example of a country that was "ruined by socialism" as others in here have suggested.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not follow the news? France is fuxored. Look at the damn news.

Fucks sake man :roll: , rioting is the French past-time, its what they do to remind their leaders that if they get too cocky then the guillotines are getting dusted off, its quite a healthy thing to keep in the back of a politicians mind.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Using amorphous concepts to create your fanciful interpretations to muddle history and reason is dumb and transparent.

If you like the phrase or not it still is valid to describe the system that they had.

And the Russians have always been into super populist leaders.
Sure, Breshnav and Gorby were not as popular as Lenin or Stalin or Putin but it does not change the fact that all power was to the head of the Soviets.

I have Emma Goldman's autobiography right here next to me, and Alexander Berkman and her talk about the USSR many times, and refer to it as State Capitalist.

When she is exiled to Russia in 1920s she visits Peter Kropotkin and he refers to his country as a "State Capitalist nightmare".

This book was written in the 1930s.

USSR was a State Capitalist system, they had wage scales, markets for goods in the hands of private enterprise etc.

China is a perfect example.

Since the USSR went down Cuba has tried to move away from state capitalism and do the whole Socialist thing (out of pure survival) but it is very hard when isolated, the revolution needs to be a worldwide thing for centralized efficiency imo.

I could never buy into Stalin's "Socialism in one country" bit, not when you have so many countries that hate your guts that are world powers you need to trade with.

But then we would be getting into Trotskyism and world revolution.
Trotsky got an ice pick in his skull for suggesting the USSR be somewhat Socialist and work and trade with the Capitalist countries to provide a good example to their citizens against Stalin's view.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: WelshBloke


Fucks sake man :roll: , rioting is the French past-time, its what they do to remind their leaders that if they get too cocky then the guillotines are getting dusted off, its quite a healthy thing to keep in the back of a politicians mind.

Here in the USA we could learn a bit from the French when it comes to not getting bent over by our government.

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: WelshBloke


Fucks sake man :roll: , rioting is the French past-time, its what they do to remind their leaders that if they get too cocky then the guillotines are getting dusted off, its quite a healthy thing to keep in the back of a politicians mind.

Here in the USA we could learn a bit from the French when it comes to not getting bent over by our government.

Also about cooking :wine:

 

[OCGuy]

I love how the troll calls anyone who think Socialism is a huge joke (a vast majority of the US) is "right-leaning".


Go spread your propaganda somewhere else.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
I love how the troll calls anyone who think Socialism is a huge joke (a vast majority of the US) is "right-leaning".


Go spread your propaganda somewhere else.

You overestimate your talk radio comrades numbers.

Most rational people do not even understand the word Socialism here yes, but understand that in moderation what ideas work although they would not call it so in public thanks to talk radio knuckleheads and the fact that USSR was our enemy for so long.
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

How many of the far-left or fundamentalist countries do you think you can speak your mind without fear of reprisal?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

How many of the far-left or fundamentalist countries do you think you can speak your mind without fear of reprisal?

Plenty of countries have free speech. And most of them are left-leaning. (if not ALL -feel free to name one who is not)

Kinda curious, what far-left countries do you speak of? I can think of none except possibly Cuba, where now they do let you speak out but you cannot expect government funding for it if you are a musician for example.

The semi-Socialist European countries of the first world all have free speech just like this one.

Welcome to 2009, laissez-fair capitalist mindset is on the run except for a few reactionary talk radio listeners in the USA such as yourself hanging on to the cold war ideology against their own best interests as workers thanks to talk radio funded by monopolistic big business interests.

The thing you righties will never get:
Capitalism always destroys itself through its own short-term greed
The workers struggle has always been and always will be there when people are suffering/taken advantage of.
A functional and prosperous society always moves to the left, which is why the right is always playing catch up.
Yesterdays liberal is todays conservative and all that comrade.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: K3N
Anti-government mentality doesn't get society far.

I suppose that's the first thing you think of when we refer to the bill of rights. Obama stated your ideology fairly well. That our bill of rights is a list of things government cannot do to you when it should be a list of things it can do to you.

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: BoberFett
A government powerful enough to force absolute equality will eventually used for personal gain. Instead of being corporate executives, those with a desire power and wealth will end up in government.

then the people should try to take over it again and be up to date with independent information (not the corporate media)

A government is like GUN , which can be good or bad, depending on who pocesses it.

Then keep it a small gun and not a nuclear tipped ICBM.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

How many of the far-left or fundamentalist countries do you think you can speak your mind without fear of reprisal?

Plenty of countries have free speech. And most of them are left-leaning. (if not ALL -feel free to name one who is not)

Let me think of at least one so I dont look stupid:

Russia

North Korea

China

Venezuela

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

How many of the far-left or fundamentalist countries do you think you can speak your mind without fear of reprisal?

Plenty of countries have free speech. And most of them are left-leaning. (if not ALL -feel free to name one who is not)

Let me think of at least one so I dont look stupid:

Russia

North Korea

China

Venezuela

Russia is not a left leaning country, North Korea is Stalinist, about as right-wing reactionary as you can get, China is State capitalist, Venz has free speech regardless of waht the neo-liberal press wants to accuse Chavez of. (the radio station thing is 100% justified as they took part in a coup, the management who were complacent were removed (and not even tried with any crime!) and the Station lost its license That is not censorship, they would jail you straight up in this country if MSNBC helped in a coup against Bush without waiting for any license to expire)

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this is a free country (to some degree) last I checked, I will speak my mind anywhere I please.

How many of the far-left or fundamentalist countries do you think you can speak your mind without fear of reprisal?

Plenty of countries have free speech. And most of them are left-leaning. (if not ALL -feel free to name one who is not)

Let me think of at least one so I dont look stupid:

Russia

North Korea

China

Venezuela

Russia is not a left leaning country, North Korea is Stalinist, about as right-wing reactionary as you can get, China is State capitalist, Venz has free speech regardless of waht the neo-liberal press wants to accuse Chavez of.

Summary: Funny--hilarious--even better--you couldnt think of anything

 

[Steeplerot]

Ok, since you think you are so smart with your cut and pastes.
How are any of those countries left leaning (besides Venz which as I said has free speech).
Russia has not been left leaning since Lenin died and that is debatable.
China? Give me a break, yeah, no labor unions, they have no welfare state, and democracy is a joke.
North Korea is a dictatorship worse then China, same, no unions, no democracy, no social net.
404 left wing ideology not found.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Paul Craig Roberts had an interesting take on how the nation's current economic malaise, created by Global Labor Arbitrage, might breathe some life back into Marxism.

Thought For Labor Day: Conservative Dogma Pulling Marx Out of His Grave

Libertarians and free trade economists don?t realize it, but they are pulling Marx out of his grave.

Free traders are resurrecting class war, not because they are Marxists but because they confuse free trade with global labor arbitrage. Free traders turn cold shoulders to US job losses from offshore outsourcing, because they mistake the losses for the beneficial workings of comparative advantage.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Paul Craig Roberts had an interesting take on how the nation's current economic malaise, created by Global Labor Arbitrage, might breathe some life back into Marxism.

Thought For Labor Day: Conservative Dogma Pulling Marx Out of His Grave

Libertarians and free trade economists don?t realize it, but they are pulling Marx out of his grave.

Free traders are resurrecting class war, not because they are Marxists but because they confuse free trade with global labor arbitrage. Free traders turn cold shoulders to US job losses from offshore outsourcing, because they mistake the losses for the beneficial workings of comparative advantage.

Ouch at the link, vdare is a pretty partisan some say straight up hate site, but hallelujah for them for figuring that running the worlds workers wages down in a race for short term profit is stupid. Now if they would make that connection to free trade scams on less developed nations like NAFTA/CAFTA they might actually figure out a reasonable solution instead of rounding Mexicans up and shooting them or whatever.
Broken clock being right and all that.

And btw, this is a total misrepresentation of what Marx was saying, but its Vdare so I am not surprised.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Strange how the Righties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every recession in the last 60 years was under republican rule.

Fact:

Periods of democratic rule have seen more GDP growth historically than under republican rule.

Strange how the lefties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every major city is a Democratic stronghold

Fact:

Cities are ridden with crime and poverty.

Fact:

Neither side has all the answers, so stop acting like your shit doesn't stink.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Time Magazine Feb. 2nd 2009
The book has been on the best-seller lists in Germany for nine weeks, and in the provincial town of Trier it has special resonance, especially in tough economic times.

It's Marx's Das Kapital, and dozens of copies of it are laid out in the bookshop in Trier's pedestrian-only town center. But no, this is not the seminal 19th century work on political economy by Karl Marx, who was born in Trier in 1818. It's a book by Reinhard Marx, the former Roman Catholic Bishop of Trier who is now Archbishop of Munich and Freising. He cheekily borrowed the title for his own thesis, namely that today's troubled economy needs to reconnect with fundamental Christian values if it is to be restored to health.

The book's introduction is a letter to Reinhard's celebrated namesake in which he rejects revolutionary Marxist solutions. Nonetheless, as he surveys the wreckage of the global financial system and the growing insecurity of ordinary people, the Archbishop wonders: Was Marx's critique of capitalism right after all? "It lasted longer than you expected back in the 19th century," he writes, "but could it be that capitalism is just an episode of history that will end at some point because the system will collapse as a result of its internal contradictions?"


Great article in Time, had the big bearded guy on the cover of the European editions also.

Roman Catholic huh? Sounds like someone who's tired of secular government having all the control and wants the church to be back on top.

Under capitalism there are have a lot and people who have less. Under catholic rule there were people who were allowed to talk to god and people who weren't allowed to read.

I'll stick with capitalism, thanks.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Strange how the Righties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every recession in the last 60 years was under republican rule.

Fact:

Periods of democratic rule have seen more GDP growth historically than under republican rule.

Strange how the lefties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every major city is a Democratic stronghold

Fact:

Cities are ridden with crime and poverty.

Fact:

Neither side has all the answers, so stop acting like your shit doesn't stink.

I dont see republicans trying to ban cities

We are talking about economic policy...

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Strange how the Righties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every recession in the last 60 years was under republican rule.

Fact:

Periods of democratic rule have seen more GDP growth historically than under republican rule.

Strange how the lefties can always claim they know the way to prosperity.

Fact:

Every major city is a Democratic stronghold

Fact:

Cities are ridden with crime and poverty.

Fact:

Neither side has all the answers, so stop acting like your shit doesn't stink.

WTF.... cities are centers of poverty AND wealth. The rural areas are always medium income in comparison. Why? Because commerce occurs in cities, creating wealth. And the poor gravitate to cities because of many opportunities for jobs; obviously all don't get a good job though. This has nothing to do with politics.

Way to really show your idiocy and bias....