[Retired] The LCD Thread

[muppet22]

stuck pixels are pretty easy to see, especially if you're looking for them. i dunno about dead pixels though..not as obvious i suppose. so you may have a perfect monitor

backlight bleeding is pretty easy for me to spot..it is really annoying and makes it difficult to watch the dark parts in movies (think: killer sneaking into a house at night..but wait, someone left the backlight on! so the victim wakes up and escapes)

 

[UTFan81]

Originally posted by: muppet22
xtknight, have you read xbit's analysis of input lag?

what do you think? it really puts my concerns of input lag to rest..and that was my biggest concern for nearly all of the monitors i was considering..

interesting article thanks. I have a 2232BW which supposedly has more input lag than the 226bw but in all other respects is a much nicer screen. I don't notice the input lag at all and that is probably why. 2232BW should probably be on the recommended list because although it still suffers from a panel lottery the two dif panels perform identically and according the behardware are calibrated pretty closely to unlike the 226bw.

 

[zod96]

How do you tell if you got a good panel on the 2232? I got the 2232GW and aside from backlight bleed from the top and bottom it seems perfect. Also what is the difference between the 2232GW and the 226BW aside from the bezel and the glossy screen? They seem to have identical specs..

 

[zod96]

Is their a difference in DVI cables? I am using my old dvi cable from my nec 90gx2 on my new samsung 2232GW, I left the new one in the box. But is their really a difference in dvi cables on LCD's?

 

[muppet22]

Originally posted by: muppet22
uhhh...it looks like the 275T Plus is already out? so far i've seen it in a handfew of online canadian sites and 1 US website: http://www.ncixus.com/

i think it just came out this past week? i will look into this more..

ok its on quite a few us web sites, but it's not in stock and won't be available until around 2/27..and if you're in the US and buy the canadian version, your warrenty won't work here :\

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: PaulMops
Hi,

I was intrigued by the ~180 price point of the LG 204WT recently. I'm looking to buy either a 20 or a 22" monitor, but am looking to spend somewhere between 200-300$ on it. I use it for just about everything, and it's probably going to be where I hook my consoles up to as well. I just bought an X2VGA2 box for that, so I don't need component inputs, but in case I decide to spring for a PS2, I would like a monitor that has 1:1 pixel mapping (I think that's what it's called, but basically I want the option to display black bars, rather than stretching the image).

I checked out the 204WT in circuitcity, and couldn't find an option for that. Sad face

Is there any tricky buzz word for 1:1 pixel mapping I need to keep an eye out for?

Centered mode is another name for it, or sometimes it's called "none" in the scaling menu. Aspect ratio scaling also has black bars but it squeezes only one dimension of the image so you have only one set of black bars. Centered mode will center whatever the source res is, most of the time leaving you with black bars around the whole thing unless one dimension is already the same as the native.

What's a good 200-300$ panel in my price range? I'll literally be using it for everything, and the only real caveat is extras like USB ports, extra plugs and all that don't matter to me. I'm only really somewhat interested in HDCP, just for future proofing.

Will the 204WT fit the bill? It looked great in store, but I'm wondering if I was just too much of a dunce to actually locate the 1:1 feature. Are all service menu's accessible via the same methodology across brands (turning power off, and powering back on while holding the menu button)?

Scaling options wouldn't be solely in the service menu.

Your advice and recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks,
-- Paul

I wish I had better news for you, but LCDs in the $200-300 range simply don't have scaling options.

PRAD is your best luck at finding such an LCD, although setting (in the search filters) interpolation settings=yes yields some LCDs, they are either unavailable in the US or I am unable to reasonably confirm that the LCDs include centered mode. Or, they are way too expensive.

http://prad.de/en/guide/ausstattung_auswahl.html

Couple exceptions: the VX2240W and Lenovo D222, but they don't have any reviews and I can't confirm the interpolation settings with these, either.

I am pretty sure the HP w2207 offers aspect ratio and fill scaling (at least this is what I could deduce from the PRAD review).

http://prad.de/en/monitore/rev...t11.html#Interpolation

That's probably your best bet right now, and its reviews are decent. Do remember aspect ratio scaling isn't the same as centered mode though. Aspect ratio scaling will still distort the image. The L227WT offers the same options. http://prad.de/en/monitore/rev...t12.html#Interpolation

According to the manual, the NEC LCD225WXM and LCD205WXM also offer only aspect/fill scaling with no 1:1.

Even then, it is unknown whether 720p will be supported. If 720p isn't in the monitor's EDID resolution list, then it won't even work at all even if 1280x720 works from your graphics card on the PC. That's what happened when I tried to hook my tuner up to my ViewSonic VP930b: nothing at 720p or 1080i. I don't even know if it worked at 480p. And it even said HD-720p was supported on the specs. A crime, huh?

You might try asking at HardForum to seeif they're aware of any. But I'm not aware of any $200-300 LCDs that offer centered mode. Your best bet is to get the LP2065 for $350 which not only includes a good panel but also scaling options. Besides, it has a solid reputation. 1:1 mode is listed in the LP2065's manual:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizs...7&prodSeriesId=1815933

Unfortunately I don't even see 1280x720 listed in the support resolutions on the LP2065 so I don't know what would happen if you tried to hook it up. I doubt 1080i is supported. So you'd be stuck with a lowly 480p.

The Gateway HD2200 might be an option but again I have no idea what scaling it supports and it's $350. It says it supports 720p (just like my ViewSonic!) But I'm guessing they're serious since it actually has a Faroudja video processor as well. Unfortunately it has pretty poor reviews.

I've read reports that the SP2208WFP has all scaling options but I don't know what resolutions it supports.

Looks like the Westinghouse LCM-22w2 is out of the race: 22" Westinghouse LCM-22W2 Won't do 720p - Xbox 360 & Xbox Forums

At last, maybe the Sceptre X22WG will work for you. It even claims 1080p support. Several reports say it scales and it's only $230. Check out this thread for more details: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1111713

 

[PaulMops]

Hey,

Thanks for the response Xtknight! You've definitely got one of the best LCD resources on the net in this little thread. At least, the most easily digestible for a novice buyer

I think I'll take your advice and just save some money until I can afford something in a higher price range. I figure, my monitor is one of those items that has the potential to stay with me for a number of years if I make a smart choice. I'm currently using an Acer AL1917, which is fine for all of my intended uses, but the on-monitor color controls are really god awful. I've got to use ATIs software to tweak the colors to a decent level ... which won't really help me when I hook a console up. Also, I'm craving wide screen goodness (and having a second monitor will grant me access to the long desired dual monitor setup!).

 

[Dainas]

Originally posted by: xtknight


I have to agree with you after seeing the L246WP (or was it an L245WP) along with a Gateway FPD24 (S-PVA) and 245BW. I thought the Gateway looked the best, but the 245BW was more vibrant than the lifeless LG.

Just a heads up for anyone in the 24" market. Not all of the LG245/246WP are created equal.

I saw my first one in a bestbuy and was unimpressed but ended up ordering a 245WP just out of a disdain of input lag and TN style shift. I got mine last Wednesday and must note sitting next to my 2407WFP ao3 and all other PVA/MVA monitors I've seen, its hands down the best for black/color levels and gamma shift. No, I'm far too perceptive and overtly observant for this to be placebo effect. Mine was made in oct 2007(likely months after all my local Bestbuys CC and Fry's got their last shipments of LG246WP) with a newer firmware, which is all I have to go on.

 

[JASTECH]

xtknight, I am still looking at the NEC LCD monitors but the black of my SONY G520 would be missed I think? I have read a little on the LED backlight but not sure if this is the series to wait for or what? My SONY has horizontel lines (11 of them) going from large to small gaps from bottom to top. I was told its the capasotors leaking and it is washed out unless I correct with my 8800 GTS. Can you shed some Light Emitting Diode on this? (Pun intended)

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Gordon Airporte
The VP930b has been discontinued and is very hard to find online right now. You can get the head only, without the stand. Looks like it's time to remove it from the list.
The VP2030b is still around as far as I can tell.

I will reduce the VP930b to limited availability then phase it out completely later.

In other news, the specs on the Dell 2408 (178 degrees, 6ms g2g) suggest a S-IPS panel, right? It hasn't launched yet, but I'd like to see the price before I buy something else...

No, the Dell will probably be S-PVA. An S-IPS panel would be too expensive.

Is anyone planning on producing a 22" that isn't a TN? I like the pixel pitch for the resolution, but the viewing angle thing is a big down-side.

Lenovo (L220X (wide gamut) - 1920x1200) and Eizo (S2231W (wide gamut), S2201W (std gamut) - 1680x1050) have S-PVA 22" panels but they are quite expensive for what they are.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: muppet22
xtknight, have you read xbit's analysis of input lag?

what do you think? it really puts my concerns of input lag to rest..and that was my biggest concern for nearly all of the monitors i was considering..

Well yes I have read it. My opinion on it really hasn't changed. I think 2 frames or above is noticeable for some hardcore gamers. I do believe casual gamers can get used to it pretty easily if it's even an issue at all for them, and in 99% of cases general use will be fine period. But the most hardcore will want to stick with the Gaming LCDs and that's all.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar
xtknight,

My replacement LCD2690wuxi arrived on Valentine's Day, which was appropriate because it's a thing of beauty, I love it, and I want to bear its children. :heart:

(This was the replacement unit sent by Buy.com after I sent back the one with the horrible ghosting/image persistence problem.)

What a gorgeous monitor this is! As soon as I turned it on and the Windoze splash screen came up, I knew it was a good one -- it looked wildly different from the first one. After boot-up, I started moving windows and palettes around, and NO image persistence! I'm swooning with joy! :thumbsup:

I haven't done anything except turn down the brightness (I think it's at about 40% now, and still really too bright) -- I'm still basking in the glow. It arrived just in time for me to spend a couple of hours adjusting photos in Photoshop, and the images looked great, except of course for the blacks not being as black as the old CRT (but I knew about that limitation).

If you have any suggestions for adjusting the monitor (just using the built-in capabilities -- I haven't bought the Spectraview kit yet so I can't calibrate), I'm all ears.

Honestly you won't get any farther along by messing with the monitor's settings...until you get SpectraView.

But you can set it to sRGB in the OSD if you're working with sRGB material. I'm actually not even sure what this does but maybe there is some color space emulation here.

Although I'm not thinking about sending this one back, how do I check for problems? I found a web page that lets me generate an almost-full-screen (except for menu and scroll bars) black/red/etc. screen, and I don't see any dead or stuck pixels, but maybe I'm missing them? Are they real obvious? Is it possible I got a panel with no problem pixels at all? And would it be obvious if I had backlight bleeding? I tried the black screen (with the room lights turned off) and didn't see anything funny, but again I wasn't sure where or what to look for.

Thanks again for recommending this monitor -- it was well worth waiting for, and worth the cost -- and for all of the great info in this thread.

Mallomar

Well there's no real trick to finding dead pixels, you just have to notice them. And if you do find one, there's not a whole lot you can do unless there are four or five (unless the support team at NEC feels like being nice). So I say just use the monitor and if any appear decide what to do from there.

Note some dead pixels only appear on certain primary color backgrounds (only on red, green, blue). I think using a white or black background might catch them all anyway, I don't really know.

Backlight bleeding really shouldn't be an issue unless you got a truly messed up unit. And if you did, you'd be able to tell on a black screen. If you see nothing out of the ordinary then you're good. Something out of the ordinary would be bands of fluorescent light leaking through very obviously on what's supposed to be a black screen. Of course there's always going to be a little showing, that's just how LCDs work but if it looks like a great impediment to your experience then it's time to exchange. It should primarily look dark gray or darkish white/bluish. Bad leaking usually would occur at the edges but if you can't see it clearly and immediately then it's not serious enough. Mostly it only manifests itself on a real dark screen anyway.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: UTFan81

Originally posted by: muppet22
xtknight, have you read xbit's analysis of input lag?

what do you think? it really puts my concerns of input lag to rest..and that was my biggest concern for nearly all of the monitors i was considering..

interesting article thanks. I have a 2232BW which supposedly has more input lag than the 226bw but in all other respects is a much nicer screen. I don't notice the input lag at all and that is probably why. 2232BW should probably be on the recommended list because although it still suffers from a panel lottery the two dif panels perform identically and according the behardware are calibrated pretty closely to unlike the 226bw.

They perform identically but they have a lot of input lag, a lot more than the 226BW. And the different panels make it extremely hard to compare reviews for this LCD. For now, I have little desire to recommend it. The second panel appears to have much worse quality of grays/default colors and some of the comparisons aren't even available:

http://www.digitalversus.com/d...6&mo2=278&p2=2617&ph=1

I don't know how many other panels this LCD has. C panels also, maybe Chunghwa ones too? Have they been discovered?

I don't believe the lowest quality panel of the 2232BW is any better than the 22"s I have up already.

If you can identify Samsung panels at your local store then I say go for it and try it out. It's probably decent but I don't see enough user experience reviews of it on HardForum to recommend it over my other 22"s when it has no other pro reviews. I want people to be aware of the 2232BW/2232GW but I don't feel like it deserves a place on my list at least yet, so I'm not sure what to do. I think that they will come across it enough if they look around though.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: zod96
Is their a difference in DVI cables? I am using my old dvi cable from my nec 90gx2 on my new samsung 2232GW, I left the new one in the box. But is their really a difference in dvi cables on LCD's?

There can be, but most of the time the difference is the other DVI cable will give you black outs or lots of image corruption. It will usually be a major problem not just something subtle.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: JASTECH
xtknight, I am still looking at the NEC LCD monitors but the black of my SONY G520 would be missed I think? I have read a little on the LED backlight but not sure if this is the series to wait for or what? My SONY has horizontel lines (11 of them) going from large to small gaps from bottom to top. I was told its the capasotors leaking and it is washed out unless I correct with my 8800 GTS. Can you shed some Light Emitting Diode on this? (Pun intended)

I don't know what's wrong with your CRT (all I can suggest is looking at repair FAQs).

LED backlights do not reduce the black level. The black level is determined by how much light the crystals can block. However, "local dimming" technology (on big TVs) can reduce the backlight in one area of the LCD because the LEDs cover the screen. That one area (or those areas of darkness) will have a lower black level. I don't even think this tech is available on any monitors yet.

LED backlights could potentially yield better uniformity.

You probably will be disappointed by an LCD's black level but all you can do is get used to it. On the best LCDs it won't be an impediment, it's just an inconvenience.

 

[Tephras]

Originally posted by: JASTECH
xtknight, I am still looking at the NEC LCD monitors but the black of my SONY G520 would be missed I think? I have read a little on the LED backlight but not sure if this is the series to wait for or what? My SONY has horizontel lines (11 of them) going from large to small gaps from bottom to top. I was told its the capasotors leaking and it is washed out unless I correct with my 8800 GTS. Can you shed some Light Emitting Diode on this? (Pun intended)

Interesting, I had to join this forum after reading your post because I have the exact same thing showing up on my monitor and have not been able to find any info on the net about it. My monitor is a Dell-branded 21" Sony Trinitron and googling for "trinitron faint horizontal lines" and similar searches will, of course, only give me explanations of the shadow mask support wires on these type of CRTs.
On my monitor there are 15 horizontal, slightly angled, lines across the screen and these lines have been visible for at least a year now. Where did you hear that leaking capacitors is the efficient cause?

 

[Tasiin]

xtknight - what are your thoughts on widescreen vs. 4:3 in the 20" range? I know you recommended the 2007WFP earlier, but I'm left wondering what the advantage of widescreen in this size is exactly. It seems like you trade pixel density, compatibility, and a lot of vertical for only a little width. I've read that it makes running multiple maximized programs side by side a little easier, but going by the numbers alone (1600x1200 and 1680x1050) it doesn't seem like it'd make much of a difference. 1050 vertical wouldn't be a huge step up from my CRT's 960, either. Is there some sort of advantage to widescreen that I'm overlooking, aside from movie watching of course?

I may not have much choice either way, because the 2007FP is very expensive right now (and apparently a crapshoot due to the lottery) and the LP2065 is also a pretty big gamble. If there's no really point to 16:10 for me though, I could always try waiting a few weeks to see if the pricing/availability situation improves for either of those.

 

[muppet22]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: muppet22
xtknight, have you read xbit's analysis of input lag?

what do you think? it really puts my concerns of input lag to rest..and that was my biggest concern for nearly all of the monitors i was considering..

Well yes I have read it. My opinion on it really hasn't changed. I think 2 frames or above is noticeable for some hardcore gamers. I do believe casual gamers can get used to it pretty easily if it's even an issue at all for them, and in 99% of cases general use will be fine period. But the most hardcore will want to stick with the Gaming LCDs and that's all.

hmm..are you basing this off of first hand experience or other sources? i dont think it will be an issue (and i've read a lot of strong opinions on hardforum) but i am a hardcore gamer and i've only played on TN's

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: muppet22

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: muppet22
xtknight, have you read xbit's analysis of input lag?

what do you think? it really puts my concerns of input lag to rest..and that was my biggest concern for nearly all of the monitors i was considering..

Well yes I have read it. My opinion on it really hasn't changed. I think 2 frames or above is noticeable for some hardcore gamers. I do believe casual gamers can get used to it pretty easily if it's even an issue at all for them, and in 99% of cases general use will be fine period. But the most hardcore will want to stick with the Gaming LCDs and that's all.

hmm..are you basing this off of first hand experience or other sources? i dont think it will be an issue (and i've read a lot of strong opinions on hardforum) but i am a hardcore gamer and i've only played on TN's

Yup. I've had a TN w/o overdrive (0 input lag) and two LCDs with 32 ms of lag (VP930b and 20WMGX2). No difference noticed there.

My LCD2690WUXi (usually 50 ms lag) however feels a little slow and it could potentially be annoying for gaming. I still don't have hard proof either way, it's just what I've noticed. I advise that people form their own opinions based on their own experiences. Certainly I could use this 26" screen on a daily basis although I would stick with CRT or <1 frame lag LCD for any 'competitions'.

If I had to guess, I think you should give one of these LCDs a try. But if you're the type of person that cares about every last frag you might consider sticking with low input lag TNs.

 

[JASTECH]

Originally posted by: Tephras

Originally posted by: JASTECH
xtknight, I am still looking at the NEC LCD monitors but the black of my SONY G520 would be missed I think? I have read a little on the LED backlight but not sure if this is the series to wait for or what? My SONY has horizontel lines (11 of them) going from large to small gaps from bottom to top. I was told its the capasotors leaking and it is washed out unless I correct with my 8800 GTS. Can you shed some Light Emitting Diode on this? (Pun intended)

Interesting, I had to join this forum after reading your post because I have the exact same thing showing up on my monitor and have not been able to find any info on the net about it. My monitor is a Dell-branded 21" Sony Trinitron and googling for "trinitron faint horizontal lines" and similar searches will, of course, only give me explanations of the shadow mask support wires on these type of CRTs.
On my monitor there are 15 horizontal, slightly angled, lines across the screen and these lines have been visible for at least a year now. Where did you hear that leaking capacitors is the efficient cause?

Welcome to this forum!

Actually it was my brother, he works at a casino in Reno, Nevada as a Tech. Super and they do a lot of repairs on them. My lines do have a angle to them and it has been a while they have been there. He said if the monitor just sits for a long period the caps will leak too. So I am here looking for a replacement LCD as close to the quality of this one (new that is, lol).

 

[JASTECH]

xtknight, here is what I had found.
http://www.behardware.com/arti...ng-s-1rst-lcd-led.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/10/28/a_revolution/

 

[The Keeper]

I just got my brand new LG L227WT half-a-week ago and I love it. No problems whatsoever so far, I haven't noticed any ghosting or input lag. My previous LCD was Samsung Syncmaster 172X (17") though. I don't know how games look like in lower resolutions because I haven't tried yet, but 1680x1050 looks great.

 

[Engraver]

Originally posted by: muppet22

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: muppet22
so i've had a change of heart with the dell 3007wfp-hc..although i'm sure it is nice and all, after looking for a new video card i've come to the conlusion that it's native resolution is just to high to get good fps while gaming.

so i've turned to the 24"-27" size category. i think 1900x1200 will be just fine. the problem is there weren't many IPS panels in this range..the planar 25.5" seems to be the best option, although ToastyX's review over on HardForum was kind of scary.

what i'm most interested is no backlight bleeding, deep blacks with the lights off (i.e. nice for movies), low response times (for fps games), and lastly some sort of viewing angles (although i could sacrifice this)...so far i think my best options are: Planar PX2611W, Samsung 275T, Samsung 245BW, but i haven't really looked into it very thoroughly yet. i'm not really interested in perfect colors, so i'm not sure if the NEC LCD2X90WUXi's or planar are for me.

what do you guys think?

Maybe the Samsung 275T will suit you well. It has great response time. The only thing is, I don't know about input lag. It wasn't mentioned in the reviews I saw. I was going to be optimistic and say that since the 305T wasn't too bad, nor was the 275T, but I can't confirm this.

The 275T Plus, a new model, is due out soon and unfortunately I wouldn't just jump on this assuming it's only better. There are times when the successors of popular LCDs are actually worse (e.g. Samsung 2232BW vs older 226BW).

Until then the Planar really is a good bet because it has very low input lag. Better than the 245BW since the 24" TN's viewing angles might be frustrating, and plus the colors won't be as true. The LCD2690 probably has more lag than you'd like (I measure 50 ms).

people on hardforum recorded 2 frames of input delay on the 275T. i've decided against getting a TN (so no 245BW)..the planar's reviews i've seen are a bit unnerving..especially that it doesn't have as deep of blacks as the 275T

I tried the 275T before the PX2611W. Coming from the 20WMGX2 which had virtually no input lag, the 275T was a nightmare. In some games it isn't really noticeable (Crysis), and others it seems extremely bad (Bioshock). It does have really good color and blacks though, even with that color shifting PVA crap, the colors pop out at you much more than the Planar. I would have kept it even with the color shift if it wasn't for the input lag.

 

[zod96]

Are their any 8 bit low MS 20 or 22 inch LCD's out their besides the nec 20wmgx2?

 

[Teslacoiled]

Originally posted by: Tephras

Originally posted by: JASTECH
xtknight, I am still looking at the NEC LCD monitors but the black of my SONY G520 would be missed I think? I have read a little on the LED backlight but not sure if this is the series to wait for or what? My SONY has horizontel lines (11 of them) going from large to small gaps from bottom to top. I was told its the capasotors leaking and it is washed out unless I correct with my 8800 GTS. Can you shed some Light Emitting Diode on this? (Pun intended)

Interesting, I had to join this forum after reading your post because I have the exact same thing showing up on my monitor and have not been able to find any info on the net about it. My monitor is a Dell-branded 21" Sony Trinitron and googling for "trinitron faint horizontal lines" and similar searches will, of course, only give me explanations of the shadow mask support wires on these type of CRTs.
On my monitor there are 15 horizontal, slightly angled, lines across the screen and these lines have been visible for at least a year now. Where did you hear that leaking capacitors is the efficient cause?

Jastech and Tephras

I have a Sony F520, and I had those lines for months, 2 years ago. Then one day I started clicking/trying everything in the monitor's OSD! The Image Restoration did it!!! And I haven't seen any lines since then. I just didn't use it for a very very long time before that. Now it's once a week for me. :-D
I hope it''ll be that easy for you two, please post back and tell us!