[Retired] The LCD Thread

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Tasiin
Have you heard anything about how easy the oversaturation of standard gamut material is to correct on the DS-263N? Apparently it has a color saturation option in the OSD, and I haven't heard as many people complaining about the wide gamut on this monitor as on others so I'm assuming it's not too bad.

I'm not happy at all with the LCD26's sRGB emulation, so I can not assume the DS's would be any better. Honestly, I do not like it much at all; it's bearable, just not nearly as good as a real sRGB panel. Use native/calibrated and a color profile in Photoshop/Firefox, this is by far the best option for most people.

Not really sure whether I want to get the DoubleSight or try and find a TN I can live with until OLED or something better is available. A 22" with 75 Hz would still be superior for gaming, but the DS-263N should be immeasurably better overall. ToastyX at Hardforum said his DS-263N was capable of 68 Hz, but it caused some banding. It's probably not capable of 75 (at least without issues) which is really too bad.

Like I said I don't see how anything other than the DS is even an option for you. That's pretty clear right now to me. But who knows, maybe you just had a string of bad luck.

On a somewhat unrelated note, do you know of any colorimeters that can match one display's colors to another without actually calibrating either to "perfect" settings? If so, is there any chance it could be done through just the monitor's OSD controls for the RGB balance and such without actually needing to create a color profile? It wouldn't need to be at all perfect, just somewhat close. I think I remember reading that the Spyder 2 with the Pro version software might be able to do this, but I wasn't sure if it'd need to make a profile or not.

I do not know of any that calibrate to themselves, however most displays calibrate to sRGB well enough (within undetectability, minus probe error) that you are basically doing that. Between display types (LCD v. CRT) or different coatings it might be difficult if not impossible to make the whole spectrum match.

I wouldn't worry so much about calibration as finding a display that you are happy with, unless you are doing matching work. I would not attempt to get my two IPSes to match even, I just calibrate each one to my favorite settings and go from there. One is glossy and the other matte so they probably wouldn't ever match.

 

[zod96]

How does that LG stack up again the Nec 20wmgx2?

 

[Tasiin]

Originally posted by: xtknight

I'm not happy at all with the LCD26's sRGB emulation, so I can not assume the DS's would be any better. Honestly, I do not like it much at all; it's bearable, just not nearly as good as a real sRGB panel. Use native/calibrated and a color profile in Photoshop/Firefox, this is by far the best option for most people.

Like I said I don't see how anything other than the DS is even an option for you. That's pretty clear right now to me. But who knows, maybe you just had a string of bad luck.

Well, that's a bit concerning to me. I think the over saturation would definitely get under my skin if it's hard to correct in programs that aren't color-aware/support profiles. I honestly don't understand why LCD manufacturers are pushing this so much when it's clearly not ready -- it's just one more thing on top of all the others to watch out for when trying to find a decent LCD. My concern over this and the refresh rate are what lead me to look into TNs (basically the only other option at this point) in the first place, otherwise I would have already bought the DS.

Originally posted by: xtknight
I do not know of any that calibrate to themselves, however most displays calibrate to sRGB well enough (within undetectability, minus probe error) that you are basically doing that. Between display types (LCD v. CRT) or different coatings it might be difficult if not impossible to make the whole spectrum match.

I wouldn't worry so much about calibration as finding a display that you are happy with, unless you are doing matching work. I would not attempt to get my two IPSes to match even, I just calibrate each one to my favorite settings and go from there. One is glossy and the other matte so they probably wouldn't ever match.

I'm actually not trying to match two radically different displays to each other -- I know that would be an exercise in futility.

The reason I asked is that I have three CRTs -- two basically unused Dell P1130s and a P992 I'm using now (which I thought was dead, but is actually working again now). Despite being new, the better of the two P1130s looks terrible by comparison and has dull, grayish colors that no amount of fiddling with the contrast or anything else has helped. No two monitors will ever look exactly the same of course, but these should look very similar (every other P1130 I've seen does look right) and are essentially the same thing in different sizes.

I'm not sure if there's something physically wrong with it or if it just needs calibration. I figured calibrating it closer to what I'm used to would be "safer" than attempting to calibrate either or both to something I've never seen before (though who knows, I could like it more). I was hoping to find something inexpensive to do this since I have no idea if a colorimeter will save it or not, but even if it doesn't work out it could be a good investment for any LCD I may buy in the future.

 

[10e]

Better calibrated sRGB mode and slightly less blur in gaming. In some games like Gears of War, that already have blur built in, the effect can be disturbing (even though I'm already disturbed). I usually shut off the built-in game blur, but I still find the BenQ a bit better in this regard.

I notice some input lag on the LCD2690, but it's not enough to remotely bother me, but the BenQ has a "sharpness" and quickness while gaming that I like.

Strangely enough, my BenQ FP241VW which is measured at the same input lag as the NEC (or worse) doesn't show lag cloned with the G2400W, whereas the NEC shows a bit. After having cloned both against the BenQ, I can see a bit of lag on the NEC, but none on the FP241VW, BUT the measurements are nearly the same, as each is about two frames behind the G2400W.

BTW never measure input lag with two monitors cloned in Vista x64 and an 8800GTS 512MB. The difference in switching ports is nearly two frames difference. Ie. on port 1 the NEC is 3 to 4 frames behind the G2400W, but when the ports are switched, the G2400W is generally only 1 to 2 frames ahead. I didn't see this issue with an ATI HD3870 using ports back and forth. FYI.

In all other aspects the NEC outstrips the G2400W. That should be expected given the price difference, but the BenQ is excellent for the low price of $350.00 to $400.00 especially if consoles are connected to it. It has accurate color that is good for movies (sometimes too good up close) and while the scaler doesn't hold a candle to the NEC's, it does not change the input lag.

It also does 1280x1024 at 75hz with no frame skipping, which is good for some gamers, and it can do this at 1:1, aspect or full scaling. I have tested this and I guarantee it is not skipping frames, while the NEC does. I was able to instantly spot this difference.

As you've said (and I agree) the sRGB mode of the 2690 leaves a fair bit to desire. I get better results using SVII to calibrate to a D65 target and an sRGB gamma curve than I do using the pre-set.

Regards,

10e

[/quote]

If you have one thing you miss when using the LCD2690WUXi for PC use, versus the G2400W, what is it? (assuming the G2400W still has an advantage or two)[/quote]

 

[10e]

I'd be careful with that though. You don't want to trade one problem for another. If you don't have any other issues with it I'd keep it.

I returned it primarily because I had 12 stuck pixels at the top of the panel, and I can't justify having that at this price.

The new one is tighter but a little more pressure can move it too. I'm just not comfortable using much pressure on LCDs in general though.

Weirdly enough I checked this on my older Dell 2005FPW and it moves a bit in the top left corner too. Maybe another S-IPS feature


Good luck,

10e

Originally posted by: gersson

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: gersson
Hey, xtknight: Will I be able to get by calibrating my NEC 2690 (and NEC 20WMGX2) w/ Spectraview II and an X-Rite Eye-One Display LT? Or should I go for the display 2 model?
Everything I've seen online indicated that it is the same hardware -- different softwar

What do you suggest?
Thanks

See here: http://www.necdisplay.com/Supp...Monitors/spectraview2/

GretagMacbeth Eye-One display V1 and V2, Eye-One Monitor, Eye-One Pro, and Spectrolino, Monaco OptixXR (X-Rite DTP 94), ColorVision Spyder2, Datacolor Spyder3.

I don't really know if it's "supported", but it might work. Even though it's the "same" hardware it can still have a different device ID. I would look for the USB ID it gives over the USB bus and then look this up in a database online such as http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids

I don't know about yours but my Gretag-Macbeth Eye One Display 2 reports 0971:2003 (VIDID). Also, product of "Eye-One display".

Tell me what it shows up as in Windows. http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7068/devidnf3.png

If yours is the same then it's unlikely the software will be able to tell the difference, unless it has an identification function in the specs. Might be best to e-mail NEC or ask on somewhere like HardForum.

Thanks a lot, man
As always: You are THE MAN!

I'm going to play it safe: bought the xrite display 2.
I have a friend who let me use the Spectra II software.

Given what 10e has said, I'm contemplating exchanging my 2690 for another model because it too came in with a loose panel @ the top.

 

[TNPI]

Newegg opened up ordering for the DS 263-N at $689.99. I just placed my order moments ago.

 

[FatLeprechaun]

Originally posted by: TNPI
Newegg opened up ordering for the DS 263-N at $689.99. I just placed my order moments ago.

We're positive that newegg has the one with the polarizer/filter whatever?

 

[tongqi2]

I just purchased the DS 263-N from Newegg as well. I know about Newegg's 8 dead pixel policy and was wondering if there's any way around that if I get, say, 7 dead pixels? I don't know if I misread from somewhere but I think I saw that it might be possible to get another monitor directly from DS if there are dead pixels.

 

[Dashel]

Yeah that's my concern too with Newegg. WHat options would you have in that case? Would DoubleSight RMA it?

 

[Woofmeister]

My concern as well. The 8 pixel for return policy is the only thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger since I ordinarily would buy from the Egg without a second thought.

As and for a related topic, newegg has a combo deal on a monitor lift stand with the DoubleSight that would add height adjustability to the DoubleSight; a feature I'd likely miss when replacing my Dell. That's almost tempting at a combo price of $814.98.

 

[TempletonPeck]

Originally posted by: tongqi2
I just purchased the DS 263-N from Newegg as well. I know about Newegg's 8 dead pixel policy and was wondering if there's any way around that if I get, say, 7 dead pixels? I don't know if I misread from somewhere but I think I saw that it might be possible to get another monitor directly from DS if there are dead pixels.

Usually the manufacturer will replace it with a lesser number of dead pixels. I don't know what DS's policy is though.

edit: from the Doublesight website:

The TFT LCD panel consists of millions of small transistors. Defective transistors will each cause a missing red, green or blue dot. We follow the industry quality standard set by major LCD panel manufacturers. It is customary that some panels have a few defective transistors. These panels are not considered bad quality and you can use them without uneasiness. DoubleSight Displays considers more than six defective transistors per panel to be defective and thus eligible for repair within a one-year warranty period.

 

[TNPI]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

As and for a related topic, newegg has a combo deal on a monitor lift stand with the DoubleSight that would add height adjustability to the DoubleSight; a feature I'd likely miss when replacing my Dell. That's almost tempting at a combo price of $814.98.

Provantage is showing that same stand for $96.52. It should offer quite a bit more versatility, but I'll wait until I get the monitor before deciding whether I need more function from a stand. also, I've never dealt with Provantage so I'm a little skeptical at that price when the msrp is $149. Here's the link,

http://www.provantage.com:80/e...3-321-057~7ERGT0AL.htm

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I recommend getting the DS-263N from somewhere where you can return it.

What is the general consensus of the best place to order the DS-263N? I've heard people mention Buy.com and Amazon as having good return policies for monitors, but I'd like to get some more feedback on that. I might be able to swing one sooner than I thought (within the next 3 months), and I want to have an idea of the best place to order in case I get 5 stuck pixels, which is below the return policy of DoubleSight.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: TNPI

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

As and for a related topic, newegg has a combo deal on a monitor lift stand with the DoubleSight that would add height adjustability to the DoubleSight; a feature I'd likely miss when replacing my Dell. That's almost tempting at a combo price of $814.98.

Provantage is showing that same stand for $96.52. It should offer quite a bit more versatility, but I'll wait until I get the monitor before deciding whether I need more function from a stand. also, I've never dealt with Provantage so I'm a little skeptical at that price when the msrp is $149. Here's the link,

http://www.provantage.com:80/e...3-321-057~7ERGT0AL.htm

I've dealt with Provantage before and don't recall any problems. Nice find on the price though.

 

[zod96]

I might be picking up the LG and selling my nec 20wmgx2. I would like to have something bigger than a 20 inch....

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Damn for the price of the 2690 I could have bought 2x Doublesights :shocked:

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: zod96
How does that LG stack up again the Nec 20wmgx2?

The LG L227WT is wide gamut unlike the NEC, so colors may appear more vibrant. It may also have a higher contrast. However, don't expect quite the detail or viewing angles of the NEC. Remember, the L227WT is a TN, and if you have further questions about TN vs IPS try consulting the Panel Types in the OP; these factors hold true for every single panel of the type, with no exceptions. They're inherent, natural properties of the technologies.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Tasiin
Well, that's a bit concerning to me. I think the over saturation would definitely get under my skin if it's hard to correct in programs that aren't color-aware/support profiles. I honestly don't understand why LCD manufacturers are pushing this so much when it's clearly not ready -- it's just one more thing on top of all the others to watch out for when trying to find a decent LCD. My concern over this and the refresh rate are what lead me to look into TNs (basically the only other option at this point) in the first place, otherwise I would have already bought the DS.

The avg. consumer either likes oversaturated colors, or doesn't know any different. Although it does work well if you do work in the Adobe RGB space.

I'm actually not trying to match two radically different displays to each other -- I know that would be an exercise in futility.

The reason I asked is that I have three CRTs -- two basically unused Dell P1130s and a P992 I'm using now (which I thought was dead, but is actually working again now). Despite being new, the better of the two P1130s looks terrible by comparison and has dull, grayish colors that no amount of fiddling with the contrast or anything else has helped. No two monitors will ever look exactly the same of course, but these should look very similar (every other P1130 I've seen does look right) and are essentially the same thing in different sizes.

I'm not sure if there's something physically wrong with it or if it just needs calibration. I figured calibrating it closer to what I'm used to would be "safer" than attempting to calibrate either or both to something I've never seen before (though who knows, I could like it more). I was hoping to find something inexpensive to do this since I have no idea if a colorimeter will save it or not, but even if it doesn't work out it could be a good investment for any LCD I may buy in the future.

Something probably is physically wrong with it, but calibration can help you get it to the best point, most likely. What the best point is, I am not sure.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: tongqi2
I just purchased the DS 263-N from Newegg as well. I know about Newegg's 8 dead pixel policy and was wondering if there's any way around that if I get, say, 7 dead pixels? I don't know if I misread from somewhere but I think I saw that it might be possible to get another monitor directly from DS if there are dead pixels.

Originally posted by: Dashel
Yeah that's my concern too with Newegg. WHat options would you have in that case? Would DoubleSight RMA it?

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
My concern as well. The 8 pixel for return policy is the only thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger since I ordinarily would buy from the Egg without a second thought.

As and for a related topic, newegg has a combo deal on a monitor lift stand with the DoubleSight that would add height adjustability to the DoubleSight; a feature I'd likely miss when replacing my Dell. That's almost tempting at a combo price of $814.98.

I'm really not the person to ask about Newegg policies but probably not.

Yes, you can try dealing with DS. I don't know much about their policies either but I'm sure those who have exchanged before with them can elaborate.

Sometimes the manufacturers themselves are more lenient than are their policies online.

Originally posted by: kalrith

Originally posted by: xtknight
I recommend getting the DS-263N from somewhere where you can return it.

What is the general consensus of the best place to order the DS-263N? I've heard people mention Buy.com and Amazon as having good return policies for monitors, but I'd like to get some more feedback on that. I might be able to swing one sooner than I thought (within the next 3 months), and I want to have an idea of the best place to order in case I get 5 stuck pixels, which is below the return policy of DoubleSight.

I'm really not sure. I have only ordered LCDs from Newegg myself and never dealt with the other companies. I get asked this a lot but don't hear too much feedback from people who have dealt with them. Hopefully someone can chime in.

Most people deal with the manufacturer directly, because they are almost always more lenient than the merchant (at least when you talk to them).

I am fairly sure Dell has a no-questions-asked return policy (21 days?) even for non-Dell-manufactured LCDs ordered from Dell.com but they don't carry the DS-263N.

 

[Dashel]

I called DoubleSight support. First, they answered and the woman was very nice. So that's a good sign Second she said up to 4 dead pixels unless it's in the center then it's 2. So that's better than Egg's policy.

Also, I posted this on (H) but figured I'd do it here as well in case anyone is interested:

I saw that if you go here they send you here for a 5% off coupon and you can get it from Buy.com for 665.99. I may do that if they get it in before NewEgg.

 

[infinitesadd]

I'm down to deciding between the BenQ G2400W and the LG L227WTG-PF. I do a lot of gaming, no dvd watching. Other than that its standard home office use. THe price is really not that far off, because the BenQ has free shipping on amazon and the LG is only available at best buy.


I still can't decide what to get tho

help me out!

 

[10e]

Both are great gaming monitors.

The BenQ has slightly more accurate colors, but the LG is glossy and slightly more vibrant.

For my purposes the BenQ is better because I wanted proper pixel mapping for 720p and 1080p consoles. For PC use, flip a coin, as both should be great. I also wanted a 24" with 1920x1200 resolution vs. the 1680x1050 resolution of the 22" monitors out there.

I guess if resolution is important for you, go with the BenQ. If you want larger pixels and 1680x1050 resolution, go for the LG.

Regards,

10e

Originally posted by: infinitesadd
I'm down to deciding between the BenQ G2400W and the LG L227WTG-PF. I do a lot of gaming, no dvd watching. Other than that its standard home office use. THe price is really not that far off, because the BenQ has free shipping on amazon and the LG is only available at best buy.


I still can't decide what to get tho

help me out!

 

[zod96]

Just picked up the LG for $249.99 at fry's now I'll see how this compares to my nec 20wmgx2...

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Originally posted by: zod96
Just picked up the LG for $249.99 at fry's now I'll see how this compares to my nec 20wmgx2...

even with my 2960 the 20wmgx2 is still a beauty.
Post your observations when the LG comes in: I have a friend who needs a new monitor bad. At that price he should be able to sneak it in.

 

[zod96]

Ops just realized I goofed on the price it should have read $299.00 not $249.00 sorry about that...I get off from work in a minute or so and will hook up the LG when I get home, and post some observations ....