[Retired] The LCD Thread

[QuantumPion]

I just ordered my Planar from CDW yesterday, but found out today it was backordered so I won't get it until next week

Does the fact that it is backordered at CDW, and out of stock at other places like Amazon, indicate that a new model is about to be released? And if so should I cancel my order and wait?

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: laikinasis
Please help me to pick a 22-24" LCD....
(...)

My current search result (Europe, Lithuania):
(...)

Hey, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, here in Poland. I'd probably get the NEC 2490WUXi (H-IPS with polarizer, no wide gamut) but it's unavailable in Europe :/

Basically, the following monitors are still an option for me:

-> Eizo S2431W (price and maybe S-PVA black/contrast crush are its disadvantages but I think I'll go for it anyway)
-> NEC 2470WNX (good monitor IMO, I've seen it and liked it - check it out IMO; it even seems subjectively somewhat faster than Eizo and has the same panel - I haven't noticed any backlight or color homogenity issues; some reports on quite visible inverse ghosting)
-> LG W2600HP / HP LP2475W (great viewing angles, input lag and response time but both are wide gamut and have no polarizer which means white haze on blacks; plus the LG is too bright)
-> Benq V2400W (yes, it's TN but it's also cheap, has good response time, colors and contrast)
-> Hyundai W241D (same panel as Eizo and NEC, i.e. good response time and contrast but it's a firmware and quality lottery - overtightened or loose panel screws, dead pixels, inverse ghosting and poor brightness settings make it a risky purchase - but it's cheap for a PVA)

IMHO: try to get the NEC or a good Hyundai - just test it for dead pixels and check the firmware version (3.70 is what you're looking for).

 

[laikinasis]

Hey, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, here in Poland. I'd probably get the NEC 2490WUXi (H-IPS with polarizer, no wide gamut) but it's unavailable in Europe :/

Yeah, that's a BIG loss

-> Eizo S2431W (price and maybe S-PVA black/contrast crush are its disadvantages but I think I'll go for it anyway)

How are the prices in Poland ? In Lithuania this one costs exactly 1000 EUR, which is a bit excessive, since in Germany it's prices vary from ~700 EUR to ~900 EUR. I've inquired the salesperson for any discounts. And can you post any links to a normal review of this monitor ? I'm really interested in response times / input lag.

-> NEC 2470WNX (good monitor IMO, I've seen it and liked it - check it out IMO; it even seems subjectively somewhat faster than Eizo and has the same panel - I haven't noticed any backlight or color homogenity issues; some reports on quite visible inverse ghosting)

I've heard that it's more laggy than most users expect. I could not find objective measurements how many ms or frames it's lagging.

-> Hyundai W241D (same panel as Eizo and NEC, i.e. good response time and contrast but it's a firmware and quality lottery - overtightened or loose panel screws, dead pixels, inverse ghosting and poor brightness settings make it a risky purchase - but it's cheap for a PVA)

Pity, no one sells Hyundai monitors here ;/

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: laikinasis

-> NEC 2470WNX (good monitor IMO, I've seen it and liked it - check it out IMO; it even seems subjectively somewhat faster than Eizo and has the same panel - I haven't noticed any backlight or color homogenity issues; some reports on quite visible inverse ghosting)

I've heard that it's more laggy than most users expect. I could not find objective measurements how many ms or frames it's lagging.

I owned a 2470, and it was actually faster (response time) with less lag than any other 24" VA available at the time except for the BenQ that was discontinued months ago (FP241 something?). Lag was 2 frames, or 3 if using the monitor's internal scaler instead of the video card's, which meant much less lag than the Samsungs and Dells, at least back then (last year)...I haven't looked at a 24" VA since, so I don't know how it stacks up against the newest models.

I played several games on it, and the only one where I could notice the lag was CoD4. However, when I compared it to my CRT side-by-side, you could clearly see the lag just moving the mouse or dragging menus and windows around the desktop...although that's true of any VA AFAIK.

It was a beautiful monitor and was usual NEC quality: no stuck pixels, completely uniform panel with no backlight bleeding, highly adjustable, fantastic contrast and blacks, etc. However, it did have the normal VA issues like black crush, contrast or color shift, and so on. I didn't notice ghosting in the vast majority of cases, but in Far Cry, if you were sprinting across an area with no foliage, the ground would sort of flicker, which I was told was caused by barely perceptible ghosting.

I was in love with the thing until I saw the 26" Planar IPS in action...no more VAs or TNs for me after that.

 

[Centurin]

Okay, I just recieved my Planar today. It looks great and I don't notice any dead pixels. My question is does anyone know how to calibrate it properly?

I checked the calibration threads listed, but they don't have anything for the Planar. I don't want to go screwing around with the color controls and mess something up. So far, I've only adjusted the brightness and the contrast. I'm still not exactly sure what clipping the greyscale gradient means, but I think I avoided it. Anyone with a Planar who could shed some light would be great. Thanks.

 

[LightningRider]

Nice thread as usual you guys got here.

I see a lot of suggestions and opinions on 24" monitors.

But what about 27"? Are there any out there that are good for games as well as movies, general usage and programming (text)?

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Centurin
Okay, I just recieved my Planar today. It looks great and I don't notice any dead pixels. My question is does anyone know how to calibrate it properly?

I checked the calibration threads listed, but they don't have anything for the Planar. I don't want to go screwing around with the color controls and mess something up. So far, I've only adjusted the brightness and the contrast. I'm still not exactly sure what clipping the greyscale gradient means, but I think I avoided it. Anyone with a Planar who could shed some light would be great. Thanks.

Try this. If you don't like it, you can go to "recall" in the menu to restore defaults.

Use default TEXT mode. Leave contrast at 50. Set brightness to 25 or less. Turn sharpness down to 40. Now turn the gamma down in your video card's control panel using the tests on this site: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/#gammacalib

To see the difference setting sharpness to 40 makes, look at the sharpness test before and after. To eyeball your gamma, use the gamma test (2.2 is recommended), white saturation test (with contrast at 50, you should see the last set of checkerboard boxes faintly appear as you slide the gamma down), and viewing angle tests (letters should blend into background). Lowering the gamma can make a dramatic improvement, but if you set it too low, you'll get some banding in gradients.

 

[Centurin]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Try this. If you don't like it, you can go to "recall" in the menu to restore defaults.

Use default TEXT mode. Leave contrast at 50. Set brightness to 25 or less. Turn sharpness down to 40. Now turn the gamma down in your video card's control panel using the tests on this site: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/#gammacalib

To see the difference setting sharpness to 40 makes, look at the sharpness test before and after. To eyeball your gamma, use the gamma test (2.2 is recommended), white saturation test (with contrast at 50, you should see the last set of checkerboard boxes faintly appear as you slide the gamma down), and viewing angle tests (letters should blend into background). Lowering the gamma can make a dramatic improvement, but if you set it too low, you'll get some banding in gradients.

Thanks a lot. My only other question is with the color temp. It says 6500k is recommended, but the only defaults are 9300k and 7500k. Is the default setting satisfactory, or should I try to tweak it?

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Default User mode is 6500k, so you shouldn't need to mess with that.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: laikinasis


How are the prices in Poland ? In Lithuania this one costs exactly 1000 EUR, which is a bit excessive, since in Germany it's prices vary from ~700 EUR to ~900 EUR. I've inquired the salesperson for any discounts. And can you post any links to a normal review of this monitor ? I'm really interested in response times / input lag.

Around 900 EUR.

The best review I know can be found here:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore...eview-eizo-s2431w.html

Input lag was measured by a guy on Prad forums - it's around 26-28 ms on average, so mostly 1-2 frames.

Response times are very decent - no smearing, no ghosting. The Prad gamer rating would have been higher (probably ++ casual / + hardcore) if there was no "corona" effect in synthetic tests. However, since it wasn't observed in games (even FPS), I couldn't care less about it.

 

[ericinho]

The HP LP2475W is about half the price of the Eizo + has a s-IPS panel opposite to Eizo's PVA panel. So even though the blacks may have some white hazing, this is a no brainer ofcourse.

 

[Centurin]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Default User mode is 6500k, so you shouldn't need to mess with that.

Thanks for all the help. The Planar is a beautiful monitor. I just got done playing Test Drive Unlimited at 1900x1200 and what a difference. Even the menu buttons weren't all that bad to work with. Thanks to all the people who answered my questions in this thread.

 

[laikinasis]

Big thanks to darXoul. Now there's only 2 monitors I'm choosing from: Eizo S2431WSE and NEC 2470WNX. If the first one's input lag is less than 2 frames, we have a winner (I've inquired the global Eizo site about this, still waiting for an answer). If it's about 2 frames, I'm getting NEC.

I am also surprised how everyone is not aware of wide gamut problem. All I see is a bunch of happy users who think that DELL 2408WFP or HP 2475W are great monitors until the purchase, and after a while everyone's whining about oversaturated colors, finding there's no simple solution to that.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: ericinho
The HP LP2475W is about half the price of the Eizo + has a s-IPS panel opposite to Eizo's PVA panel. So even though the blacks may have some white hazing, this is a no brainer ofcourse.

Far from it, unfortunately. I was also eagerly anticipating reviews of this monitor (prad.de review is in progress) but even though it has an IPS panel which essentially means good response time, low input lag and great viewing angles, there are some drawbacks/potential problems as well:

1. Wide gamut. Oversaturation "by definition", no easy way to counter it, as confirmed e.g. on Hardforum.
2. Strong pink tint on whites to the right, greenish tint to the left - reported by multiple users.
3. Some grey/black, visible overdrive ghosting reported as well.
4. Buzzing/humming sounds reported by some users, but not by all or even most of them. Still, a potential issue.
5. No polarizer really means milky blacks and screen in general at angles or even hazy corners when viewed properly.

BTW, input lag of 10-40 ms (25 ms avg as measured by TFTCentral, around 20 ms as measured by some Hardforum poster) seems OK but nothing really stellar, and well comparable to better PVAs out there, like the Eizo.

If it had a polarizer and normal gamut, I'd probably give it a shot.

 

[ericinho]

1. depends who you ask. Some people complain about strong oversaturation. Others find it much ado about nothing. And indeed, since all future PVA/IPS screens are likely WG, software is bound to catch up soon.
5. Fair enough, but also for the Eizo you would have issues because of the PVA panel. The question is, what troubles you more... and is the Eizo 300 euro more worth?

 

[darXoul]

The price difference in Poland is actually around 400 EUR. Well, this is exactly the question - is it worth the price premium? Advantages are deeper blacks, better contrast, way better out-of-the-box colors, no wide gamut oversaturation, no reported white pink or green tint, no reported RTC ghosting in games, fewer buzzing sound reports (if any). Disadvantages are a bit inferior viewing angles and possible slight color shift/black crush (although no one really reported it specifically on the Eizo, seems to be more a general PVA property).

Looking at the best TNs however, we could risk the statement that only the absolutely craptastic vertical viewing angle is a disadvantage for gaming/general use, with the strong advantages of response time, low input lag (on the best TNs, many 5 ms models perform subpar in both categories) and price.

Annoying! Why doesn't anyone invent LCD tech combining speed of TNs with contrast of PVAs and viewing angles of IPS?

 

[laikinasis]

Updated information: Eizo S2431WSE, as officials in Eizo say, has an average of 16.5 ms input lag (1 frame) when used at native resolution (1920x1200) and 33 ms (2 frames) when used at non-native resolution. That's what I'm talking about Tommorow I'm hoping to order it

 

[imported_mostlyprudent]

LCD advice for special circumstances:

I have a neighbor with very poor vision who needs help choosing an LCD. To see his computer he uses special software that magnifies the screen. Essentially, the software zooms in on an earea of the screen and enlarges it to fill the entire screen. As the mouse move to the edge of the screen, the view shifts to another portion of the screen. He also uses inverted colors (dark background light text). He says that he has tried some cheeper LCDs and they tend to be very blurry around the center of the screen when it is enlarged, like looking through a tunnel.

Any thoughts as to what would be most important? Response time, imput lag, viewing angle all seem likely subjects. I tested a free download trial of the software on my CRT and on an Acer AL2016wbd. On the Acer LCD everything looked blurred and fuzzy to me.

 

[Afrd2shtstrngerS]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Afrd2shtstrngerS
Hello there,
First of all thank you xtknight; you built a very informative thread here. After skimming this thread, I have couple of questions and I am all open to your suggestions.

I would like to connect my Dell Latitude D630 laptop (Core 2 Duo T9300, 2gb ram, X3100 video card) to an external LCD monitor and my preferences are:

1) 19" to 22" S-IPS panel
2) would like to have DVI or HDMI input
3) would like to have HDCP compatibility
4) would like to have a higher resolution

All I am doing is web surfing and photoshop related tasks. My budget allows me to go up to $300 and in the recommendation sections I found the HP LP2065 (20.1"). Are there any other contenders I should look at it?

Thanks in advance.



PS: I forgot to mention that I found Dell 2007WFP as another option; however I am not sure if all of them come with S-IPS panels.

The 2007FP, 2007WFP, and LP2065 are all lotteries. With the LP2065 it seems you have a higher chance of getting an S-IPS panel, though.

Make sure you think it's worth it to get a smaller IPS panel over a bigger TN. For most people, it probably isn't worth it, but if you do some photo editing or are very particular about color shifts then IPS is the only choice. S-IPS will deliver a high quality image with fine details of photos fully intact, but not always a high dynamic range (dark black, bright white) one. Which one is best for you depends on what you use it for.

The LP2065 doesn't have HCDP compatibility but it is nevertheless a good choice. It's $390 now on Newegg however.

If you primarily do games on the computer, a TN is a better choice. If most of your time is spent on general use (web, e-mail, desktop, dialog, "flat colored" things) then an IPS panel is better. VA panels aren't better than good TNs any more at sizes below 23", or they might be worse since more advancement is going towards the TNs. For movies, IPS panels are fairly nice and have less bleeding than TNs or VAs.

Hey there xtknight,
I ended up purchasing the 20.1" factory refurbished NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 (S-IPS panel) for $205. It will be here within 10 days - thanks again!

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: laikinasis
Updated information: Eizo S2431WSE, as officials in Eizo say, has an average of 16.5 ms input lag (1 frame) when used at native resolution (1920x1200) and 33 ms (2 frames) when used at non-native resolution. That's what I'm talking about Tommorow I'm hoping to order it

I haven't been following your conversation, but only one frame of lag is very good for a PVA! Most of them average 2 frames or more at native.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Centurin

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Default User mode is 6500k, so you shouldn't need to mess with that.

Thanks for all the help. The Planar is a beautiful monitor. I just got done playing Test Drive Unlimited at 1900x1200 and what a difference. Even the menu buttons weren't all that bad to work with. Thanks to all the people who answered my questions in this thread.

Did those settings work well?

And yes, this thread was a lifesaver for me when my 21" Trinitron died after 10 years. Thanks again XTKnight!

 

[Centurin]

I went to the lcd test page you linked. I can't change the gamma settings on my 8800gtx without the gradients banding, so I just left it at the default. I tried to set it so everything was close to a 2.2 gamma, but like I said, it caused banding. At default levels, 10% and 25% were close to 2.2 while 48% was around 1.8. If I adjust the gamma, I can see the last checkerbox in the white saturation test, but like I said, I get banding. I don't really know which is worse tbh. The site said for games, banding was worse, so I chose to leave the gamma alone.

While I admit I saw a difference when I lowered the gamma, it wasn't big enough for me to really care about. I'd rather have the smooth gradient.

Thanks for the help

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Centurin
I went to the lcd test page you linked. I can't change the gamma settings on my 8800gtx without the gradients banding, so I just left it at the default. I tried to set it so everything was close to a 2.2 gamma, but like I said, it caused banding. At default levels, 10% and 25% were close to 2.2 while 48% was around 1.8. If I adjust the gamma, I can see the last checkerbox in the white saturation test, but like I said, I get banding. I don't really know which is worse tbh. The site said for games, banding was worse, so I chose to leave the gamma alone.

While I admit I saw a difference when I lowered the gamma, it wasn't big enough for me to really care about. I'd rather have the smooth gradient.

Thanks for the help

If you look, the Nvidia control panel pages are like the checkerboard...the gray-to-white gradient behind the menus actually has lighter steps on the right end of the scale that only appear if you turn the gamma down a bit. So I assume the best thing is to turn it down just enough to see those last steps in the checkerboard and CP.

Also, I don't think most games are affected by adjusting the gamma in your CP, only by adjusting gamma within the game. CoD4, for instance, starts with gamma set to "0" no matter what you set in your CP. So you'd only get banding in games if you turned it down too low in the game itself. That's also why your desktop looks lighter when you exit a game than when you started it...its reset your gamma.

Either way, all that matters is what looks best to you. I'm still used to the more saturated colors on my Trinitron CRT, and turning the gamma down a little is the only way I can make the Planar look similar. Otherwise, everything looks a bit washed out and not quite as "rich", even with the brightness set to 0.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Araemo
Has anyone used the LCD2490WUXi for gaming that can comment on the image delay and response time?

I'm currently using a Viewsonic VX900, so as long as both are better than that, I'll be happy. But I haven't seen any serious reviews of this monitor, so I can't compare the specifications/measurements.

As long as the image delay is no worse than the VX900, I may still want the 2490, partially for the better color quality.

The high end monitors are not going to better than the VX900. They will probably be a little slower. That doesn't mean it will be very serious and unless you're badly addicted to games, frankly you probably won't care about it or even notice it.

If you think you fit into that category, then steer clear of it and get a TN panel instead.

I don't think the LCD2090 has as much input lag as the LCD2490. I'm not sure. It's a lot to spend for a 20" monitor, especially these days.

Originally posted by: ericinho
@ All with experience with a wide-gammut monitor:

I am actually curious how wide-gammut performs in practice... Is WG something to avoid if you use your computer for a broad range of activities (so watching movies, internet browsing, office work and administration) besides sRGB design work???

It's really not that bad for anything except editing sRGB work (even then, you can use profiles). I don't like it when people say wide gamut is bad for normal desktop use, because it most certainly isn't. Many web browsers offer the option of loading in a color profile to correct colors, and most other colors don't matter. I don't think that you will think they are that oversaturated.

There is simply more demand for wide gamut monitors and very soon, I believe that new sRGB monitors will cease to exist probably even in the photo editing sector. More software will incorporate better color management to deal with the "Wide Gamut Problem".

Originally posted by: LeoM

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: LeoM
Hi, first time LCD buyer here. I'm coming from an NEC FE791sb Diamondtron CRT, so I'm used to a high quality picture, suitable at least for web photo work. I need to stay under $500.

I am looking at two widescreen units -- the LG L227WTG and the NEC 20WMGX2. I can get the LG new of course, and the NEC is available as a factory refurb. Both have gotten high praise in this thread but I haven't seen a direct comparison between the two, subjective or otherwise. Any comparative info appreciated.

I have owned both and I can say the NEC is still better for photo work because of better screen stability (viewing angle). That's the clear choice here IMO. (The LG of course is great for movies and games, though, but the NEC is too.)

xtknight, many thanks for the advice. I have two further questions if you can help me on these:

1) I'm concerned about black point and dynamic range. Most of the photos I edit are architectural, which means lots of shadows, contrasty images, and detailed wood grain in closeups. I understand that LCD blackpoints in general can't equal CRT, but how do the black values and dynamic range compare between the LG and the NEC in your experience?

The LG has a slightly lower actual black point (say the LG is about 0.20 nits, while the NEC is roughly 0.28 nits), but this is nearly irrelevant when you realize that the viewing angles of the LG will immediately crush dark details.

The dynamic range (ratio between actual white, actual black) is about the same when you look at it, but I think that the contrast (ability to distinguish one tone from another) is significantly better on the NEC because of the viewing angle.

2) Factory refurb is apparently my only option for the NEC. Am I likely to get a functionally "like new" unit going that route, or is that pretty much a gamble in the LCD market?

You are quite likely to get a "like new" unit, so it's a viable path. Obviously, there's always the possibility of risks but I don't think I had to tell you that.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: pdp76

The Lenovo L220X (VA, wide gamut) comes to mind but the cheapest I've seen it go for is $450 and who knows if this place is reputable: http://www.costcentral.com/pro...433HB2/N56403/froogle/

The Westinghouse L2410NM is alright, but it has had poor quality control (at least lately).

The ASUS PW201 has a VA panel (as far as I know, based on X-Bit Review of the unit in another country, and the user reviews, but I am not 100% sure), and it's available for $210 AR on Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824236007

I recommend trying out the PW201 actually. It is a glossy panel just like your AL2051W and has a USB hub. It's probably not going to be an "upgrade" though, more like a sidegrade.

Thanks for the reply, just to clear things up a little, the AL2051W is my wife's, I'm currently using a Dell 1703FP. Great little monitor, they don't make them like this anymore, but the problem is, it is "little", I'm dying for a little more desktop space nowadays.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, I took a look at the PW201, it does look pretty decent. I'll definitely take it into account because the price is certainly right! If it's as good as the AL2051W, I'll probably get that one, do you think any stores still carry them so I can take a look in person? Those monitors are about 2 years old now.

I have never heard of that monitor being in-store, unfortunately.