[Retired] The LCD Thread

[dedejean]

@xtknight
tnx for the advices.

Btw, i remembered few posts back i asked for the FIXED aspect ratio for non-native resolutions and you told me nvidia drivers has it. Now i am using catalysts 7.6 and it doesnt work (although there is an option on the control center of catalyst). I read in ati's catalyst update that it is still a known bug and has yet to be fixed. Are there any 3rd party software or utility that does that? Or am i stuck with my buggy vista64 and poor catalyst driver?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dedejean
@xtknight
tnx for the advices.

Btw, i remembered few posts back i asked for the FIXED aspect ratio for non-native resolutions and you told me nvidia drivers has it. Now i am using catalysts 7.6 and it doesnt work (although there is an option on the control center of catalyst). I read in ati's catalyst update that it is still a known bug and has yet to be fixed. Are there any 3rd party software or utility that does that? Or am i stuck with my buggy vista64 and poor catalyst driver?

Sadly enough you are stuck with it until ATI fixes it.

I take that back. The PowerStrip software might have options.

 

[xtknight]

Using a higher contrast and lower brightness seems to help the heat "burn-in" problem.

Originally posted by: jim1976
I am an owner of a Dell 2707wfp from last week..
I wanted the 30incher but the lack of component outputs left me with no alternative..

I was afraid of investing in this monitor due to the relatively big dot pitch (0.303), but I had no other alternative since I wanted a big screen mainly but not only for PC use, but for my PS3 and 360 as well..

All I can say is that I'm really pleased with my choice, it's a very good monitor in terms of brightness,contrast and color quality, and it performs really well with the consoles as well..

Dot pitch is nowhere near annoying, despite the fact that I was using a Dell 2001fp with a much smaller dpi..

I'm really glad with my purchase and I bought it in a good price as well..

Does anyone know a site with tips on how to calibrate my monitor better? I know this is, for the most part subjective, but I could definitely use some tips, especially about color values and temperatures..

The standard for daylight is 6500K (kelvin). Most people use a value between 5000K (warmish) to 9300K (coolish).

I like 6000K, a slightly warmer-looking value than 6500K. Sometimes the ambient light can affect how warm your picture really appears.

The best way to adjust it is to use a colorimeter, of course, if one is available. If not, then here's the next best:

1. Clear all software and video card gamma correction values (all should be = 1.00 or default).
2. Use the standard/general "Image Mode" (Dell) for general PC use.

3. Adjust the brightness and contrast to something comfortable. Usually you want a higher contrast and lower brightness with LCD monitors. A high brightness causes a higher black level. It's preferable you instead exploit your LCD's high contrast by adjusting "contrast". This will need to be a value low enough that it doesn't burn the end of a grayscale gradient. It's easy to tell when this is happening if you just load up a grayscale. Find a value that is comfortable for you and doesn't clip the grayscale. Some Dells only have a brightness setting but you should be able to find something acceptable to satisfy those criteria.

4. Load up a pure white image. Use "user settings" for your monitor. Adjust R, G, and B until the white looks natural to you. Note that contrast is a secondary adjustment of R, G, B values (it sets a bias to them), so these settings kind of go hand-in-hand. A too high value of either contrast or the R/G/B components will cause burning at the end of the grayscale, not something you want.

Since the Dell 2707WFP's color temperature tracking is great, this R/G/B adjustment should be enough to get you a natural picture across the whole gradient.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: lemon45
I've read this whole thread and searched the forum, and I can't find an answer to this question:

Welcome to the forums!

I own a macbook pro and I plan on buying a 22 in LCD to use in both OSX and windows XP. I plan to use the monitor for casual gaming and to watch movies. Certain manufacturers provide calibration software that is compatible with both OS's (ie Samsung's MagicTune) while others are PC only (HP's MyDisplay). I plan on buying either Samsung's 226BW or HP's w2207.

You're really not missing much. These programs rarely help. They only give you what you can access in the monitor's setups yourself in addition to a few test images.

Since HP's software is not OSX compatible, will I not be able to fully calibrate the monitor in OSX? Will this be a problem?

Again neither will fully calibrate your monitor. At best, they'll give you slightly better results than default. I'm betting Mac OS X has basic gamma adjustment somewhere.

Or is OSX's Display Calibration Assistant sufficient? Color accuracy is not necessarily important (I won't be doing photo editing or print work), but I would like the display to look good (obviously). Thanks!

I assume you mean the dialog at the bottom of this page: http://www.computer-darkroom.c...isplay/colorsync_1.htm

Yes, it looks like that will probably be just as good. All you have to do is use your monitor's controls as much as you can and reserve adjustment of software controls for small tweaking.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Machinus
How much does one have to spend on a color meter to get the most out of a new LCD?

I should probably have something on this in the guide, but the cheapest ones worth buying are around $150 USD.

Do not buy the Pantone Huey.
.
.
Did I say not to buy the Pantone Huey? It makes midtones worse than default.

Try the Spyder2 Express (yes, you can get it at Target for $130 USD). http://www.google.com/products...2&btnG=Search+Products

The X-Rite DTP-94/Monaco Optix or Eye One Display 2 (supposed replacement for DTP-94) are the best colorimeters. The i1 Display 2 is available for around $230. There are versions made by Gretag-Macbeth (original) and Pantone. They both use the same hardware but come with different software. The Spyder2 Pro is probably a slight step down from the i1 Display 2, but still good.

With the Eye-One Display 2 I can get results like this, so I don't really think spending any more to get the Monaco Optix XR (slightly better) is necessary.

First, VP930b with no calibration: yuck!

Voila...VP930b (P-MVA, 6000K): 20070716_vp930b_d60_sRGB_120_1.png

20WMGX2 (S-IPS, 6000K): 20070716_20wmgx2_d60_sRGB_120_1.png

Both were able to be calibrated at/below deltaE94 1.00. The cut-off for human eye perception is about 2.00, but a 1.00 on the typical tones means maybe 1.5 to 2.0 on some other ones.

I'm really happy with the results of it, so the Gretag-Macbeth Eye One Display 2 comes highly recommended. That's about as cheap as you can go before you get something that's good for photo editing. The Spyder2 Express will just make your colors slightly better. I don't really know how good it is...I've never used it. I've heard it could correct the ugly high-gamma AUO panels. I think the i1 Display 2 is the best value personally since you get just about the best for ~$230. And you can use it forever, on every monitor or laptop you get, as long as they have software/driver support. I think the i1 already supports XP64 (thus Vista32 and Vista64(?) also).

P.S. If you don't let your monitor warm up for at least half an hour, the brightness and color temp can drift like crazy (well, to a colorimeter's eye). Just disable screensaver/monitor shut-off power mgmt (DPMS), and then leave your display on for awhile before beginning calibration.

 

[xtknight]

(for reference, your last post)

Originally posted by: Nnyan
First of all in all my research on LCD's this post has been the most useful, so my hats off to you xtknight.

My main problem with getting an LCD is the fact that I am VERY refresh rate sensitive. 60Hz on a CRT will have me feeling dizzy and nauseous within a few mintues. Now I understand that LCD's and CRT's are different when it comes to refresh rates (or so I've heard), so I don't know if my issue is directly related to refresh rate, lag or what. My problem is that even though it is not as bad as a low refresh rate CRT I will start feeling a bit dizzy/nauseous after 30-60mins on an LCD (for example my wife's Dell E207WFP).

I mostly use my PC to do gaming and some work related stuff. While I do watch some movies and use photoshop some its not a huge concern. I'm looking to get a 20-22" LCD that is very good with gaming and hopefully does not make me feel dizzy.

Based on my research I'm thinking of the Acer AL2051W or the LG226WT(X). I'm having problems finding the 226 in stock anywhere but I did notice that newegg had a new LG L204WT-SF in stock but I can't find a review for it. Anyone know how this stacks up?

OK, so you needed an LCD that was easy on the eyes...(and...head, apparently)

Originally posted by: Nnyan
OK so now that the LP2065 is out of consideration b/c of the panel lottery and I can't find any L226WT's I'm back to trying to figure out what to get. Not sure if I should hold off for a few months to see how the new releases pan out.

So far my tenative list is:

HP w2207
LG L204WT
Acer AL2051W

Any other ideas?

Using the Acer AL2051W at a low brightness might be the best option. It depends if your eyes are bothered by screen door effect (more emphasized with anti-glare coating) or reflections (more emphasized with reflections). All I can say is, the glossy coating is much easier on my eyes than the anti-glare. It doesn't even look as bright and it's just more soothing. Of course, glossy is only an option if you don't have lots of ambient light.

The next best (or maybe even best) option would probably be the HP w2207. It has a big dot pitch, very easy on the eyes, and it also has a glossy coating. It's a TN but since they aren't so harsh as MVAs they might actually be easier on your eyes. Again this depends if you're more bothered by the uniformity or the brightness.

The w2207 due to its bigger dot pitch might be easier on your eyes. But if you don't have focusing trouble, just nausea, maybe the AL2051W (at a low brightness) would be the best option? I can only take wild guesses here. Maybe the glossy coating would bother you and the L204WT (anti-glare) is indeed the best. You might just need to get used to LCDs but I can't say I hear of nausea too often. The best advice I can give to you is to try first a glossy and if that bothers you then an anti-glare. Sorry I couldn't really limit that down for you much.

I think I said glossy coatings might be bothersome due to reflections in your last thread, but one thing I missed is that they are also easier on the eyes if you don't have many ambient lights. So, in short, for eye comfort, this is what I think:

Glossy + few/diffused/even ambient lights > Anti-glare > Glossy + many ambient lights.

 

[Shifty3421]

xtknight, I just got my new AL2051W and I'm very happy with it so far. However, it doesn't do well on your grayscale test. Anyway, how can I calibrate this monitor?

 

[Yikes2000]

I plan to buy the ColorEyes Display Pro + Spyder2 Bundle for $239.

Probably for Christmas...

 

[bryanvlo]

xtknight, I wasn't aware of this fact, but in your post rebutting Yikes arguement for wider gamut, you mentioned you might need a more expensive colorimeter to adjust it. Does that mean colorimeters such as the more affordable Spyder Express will not be up to task of calibrating wide gamut screens, such as my new Dell?

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The best way to adjust it is to use a colorimeter, of course, if one is available. If not, then here's the next best:

1. Clear all software and video card gamma correction values (all should be = 1.00 or default).
2. Use the standard/general "Image Mode" (Dell) for general PC use.

3. Adjust the brightness and contrast to something comfortable. Usually you want a higher contrast and lower brightness with LCD monitors. A high brightness causes a higher black level. It's preferable you instead exploit your LCD's high contrast by adjusting "contrast". This will need to be a value low enough that it doesn't burn the end of a grayscale gradient. It's easy to tell when this is happening if you just load up a grayscale. Find a value that is comfortable for you and doesn't clip the grayscale. Some Dells only have a brightness setting but you should be able to find something acceptable to satisfy those criteria.

4. Load up a pure white image. Use "user settings" for your monitor. Adjust R, G, and B until the white looks natural to you. Note that contrast is a secondary adjustment of R, G, B values (it sets a bias to them), so these settings kind of go hand-in-hand. A too high value of either contrast or the R/G/B components will cause burning at the end of the grayscale, not something you want.

This is the simplest and most logical step-by-step method of non-colorimeter calibrating I have seen. Very useful and worth a section in the OP. :thumbsup:

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
xtknight, I wasn't aware of this fact, but in your post rebutting Yikes arguement for wider gamut, you mentioned you might need a more expensive colorimeter to adjust it. Does that mean colorimeters such as the more affordable Spyder Express will not be up to task of calibrating wide gamut screens, such as my new Dell?

The Spyder2 Express will probably have a lot of trouble with a wide gamut monitor.

The Eye One Display 2, Monaco Optix XR, Spyder2 Pro(?) will probably do fine with it. I thought that there were specialized colorimeters for calibrating wide gamut monitors, but I'm not getting many results. So, I'm not 100% sure.

Here is some brief info on the matter: http://www.color.org/documents...rementandProfiling.pdf

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BernardP

Originally posted by: xtknight
The best way to adjust it is to use a colorimeter, of course, if one is available. If not, then here's the next best:

1. Clear all software and video card gamma correction values (all should be = 1.00 or default).
2. Use the standard/general "Image Mode" (Dell) for general PC use.

3. Adjust the brightness and contrast to something comfortable. Usually you want a higher contrast and lower brightness with LCD monitors. A high brightness causes a higher black level. It's preferable you instead exploit your LCD's high contrast by adjusting "contrast". This will need to be a value low enough that it doesn't burn the end of a grayscale gradient. It's easy to tell when this is happening if you just load up a grayscale. Find a value that is comfortable for you and doesn't clip the grayscale. Some Dells only have a brightness setting but you should be able to find something acceptable to satisfy those criteria.

4. Load up a pure white image. Use "user settings" for your monitor. Adjust R, G, and B until the white looks natural to you. Note that contrast is a secondary adjustment of R, G, B values (it sets a bias to them), so these settings kind of go hand-in-hand. A too high value of either contrast or the R/G/B components will cause burning at the end of the grayscale, not something you want.

This is the simplest and most logical step-by-step method of non-colorimeter calibrating I have seen. Very useful and worth a section in the OP. :thumbsup:

Yeah, I added this (+colorimeter recommendations) as well as a Cleaning subsection to the OP.

 

[bryanvlo]

Can someone tell me how to take a picture of the monitor so I can capture backlight bleeding? I need directions on how to set up the camera I think. Not very familiar with this sorta thing.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: Nullvoid
Will having this higher gamut colour really be much of an improvement for these TN panels? I also wonder if they will be charging a big price premium for them over the older models. If it's not too much extra then I guess I could maybe hold out for one of them, although with production only starting in July...I guess it will take quite some time for them to appear in stores.

The higher gamut will be a good improvement to TN technology, which can use as many improvements as it can get. Will it match a MVA+high gamut display? Of course not, but it'll at least be that ("--") much closer.

I'd expect the L227WT to be $100 more than the L226WT.

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
Do you have any opinions on this 24" Acer AL2416WB?

Not to be mistaken with the AL2416WBsD which is TN.

It seems to have a viewing angle of 178d but I can't seem to find any opinions on it.

Good find, I don't know much about it. I'll have to keep an eye open for reviews/etc. Price looks great and the viewing angle (if it was quoted correctly) indicates an 8-bit P-MVA.

I ended up buying this monitor. While I'm no expert, it is quite nice. It's very bright and crisp. No dead pixels and the viewing angle is very good. I don't have too many taxing games so I ran the Lost Planet demo on it and got some tearing. I don't know if it's from my video card (8800GTS 640) or a driver glitch but some scenes would tear even if slowly panning around. The new monitor cost me $450 so I'm quite happy with it regardless.

I have an old 21" Sony CRT which back in the day cost me $1,200 sitting right next to the new monitor and I can't believe how bad it looks. It looks completely washed out.

The one thing I don't like about the monitor is the positioning of the power button. It's recessed below the panel and is not visible while you are standing. You need to feel around for it.

 

[dedejean]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: dedejean
@xtknight
tnx for the advices.

Btw, i remembered few posts back i asked for the FIXED aspect ratio for non-native resolutions and you told me nvidia drivers has it. Now i am using catalysts 7.6 and it doesnt work (although there is an option on the control center of catalyst). I read in ati's catalyst update that it is still a known bug and has yet to be fixed. Are there any 3rd party software or utility that does that? Or am i stuck with my buggy vista64 and poor catalyst driver?

Sadly enough you are stuck with it until ATI fixes it.

I take that back. The PowerStrip software might have options.

nice nice nice!! tnx. Seems like to compromise aTI's control center, i have 2 more (ATI tray tools, powerstrip) control panel installed... i hate this.

 

[mattmatteh]

i was considering getting benq fp241wz till i noticed you updated the thread with "Removed ... from recommendations (all AMVA panels now, sorry)" i havent seen many reviews of that model, i thought it would be similar or better than the previous version fp241w. i was looking for a larger wide screen lcd for desktop and movies (has to be good for movies) i dont game much if at all. also needs to work with any operating system, nothing where some settings only can be changed with a windows app. sorry if i didnt read all of the thread, i have read parts of it. the forum loads very slow. and i have been researching for the last month and about to finalize my decision. i would go ahead with the benq fp241w but not sure if all the suppliers have the ones with the newer firmware loaded. i would rather not get stuck without the 1:1 or aspect. does anyone know if tigerdirect, newegg, or any other are shipping with the new firmware ?

thanks for an excellent thread on lcd's!

i agree with you on not recommending an lcd that has a panel lottery, well done.

matt

 

[xtknight]

Welcome to the forums, mattmatteh.

Originally posted by: mattmatteh
i was considering getting benq fp241wz till i noticed you updated the thread with "Removed ... from recommendations (all AMVA panels now, sorry)"

Well that was the LP2065. But since the FP241WZ uses an AMVA (or maybe S-PVA?) also I assume you're concerned about the quality of AMVA panels. They are probably great 24" panels but the ones that they use in panel lotteries tend to be bargain bin. Dell used crappy, Grade B PVAs in its UltraSharp series during the panel lottery of the 20.1". I assume the case is the same for HP. On the converse, BenQ uses Grade A VA panels.

i havent seen many reviews of that model, i thought it would be similar or better than the previous version fp241w. i was looking for a larger wide screen lcd for desktop and movies (has to be good for movies) i dont game much if at all.

Yes, it is better and faster than the last FP241W. It's a bit more expensive, as well.
http://www.digitalversus.com/d...8&mo2=142&p2=1564&ph=7

also needs to work with any operating system, nothing where some settings only can be changed with a windows app. sorry if i didnt read all of the thread, i have read parts of it. the forum loads very slow. and i have been researching for the last month and about to finalize my decision. i would go ahead with the benq fp241w but not sure if all the suppliers have the ones with the newer firmware loaded. i would rather not get stuck without the 1:1 or aspect. does anyone know if tigerdirect, newegg, or any other are shipping with the new firmware ?

It should work with any OS, and AFAIK the FP241WZ has OSD controls.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1161471

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
Can someone tell me how to take a picture of the monitor so I can capture backlight bleeding? I need directions on how to set up the camera I think. Not very familiar with this sorta thing.

Probably use macro mode and set the exposure really bright so it catches all the bleeding. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet personally but over the next few days I'll see if I can get around to it.

 

[bryanvlo]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
Can someone tell me how to take a picture of the monitor so I can capture backlight bleeding? I need directions on how to set up the camera I think. Not very familiar with this sorta thing.

Probably use macro mode and set the exposure really bright so it catches all the bleeding. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet personally but over the next few days I'll see if I can get around to it.

Thank you.

 

[mattmatteh]

the comparison on http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php and the review on behardware.com suggest that the benq fp241wz is a pva panel, i thought it was amva. any idea how 2 sites could be wrong or is the benq in fact a pva ?

matt

 

[Nnyan]

@xtknight thanks for the gentle mental nudge = )

I'm going to do a bit of shopping at the local stores to see if I can see both of these LCD's in person prior to purchasing one. I've worked with glossy laptop LCD's before and they didn't seem to bother me much but we'll see how my RL viewing goes.

Thanks!

 

[Ika]

I've .... I've .... I've forsaken xtknight's ways... I've given in to aesthetics + ignorance > panel quality! I skipped over that Acer AL2051W to pick the monitor I had previously chose, 216BW. I know that the Acer most definitely had a better screen. I know that the 216BW's screen quality probably sucks. But why, you ask? Because... I DESPISE GLOSSSYYYYY and don't think I'll get used to it. For $50 more, I get a non-glossy screen and a much better looking (though not in terms of panel quality) monitor. Oh, and I get an extra diagonal inch. Ooh I'm excited

Um... in any case, I'll be posting thoughts about my monitor shortly. Since there are so few reviews on the 216BW, I thought this would be a good chance to write something up (though it definitely won't be in-depth, as I've had no experience with a good monitor and have no idea where the nearest colorimeter is).

 

[GEOrifle]

Xtknight i'm thinking to get SAMSUNG LCD TV 26" for $700(or 23" for $600) instead to buy just 22" LCD PC monitor for $350. Your opinion please: where i'm gona win and where to lose? (going to combine it at one spot for PC+TV, maybe it su*ks?).

Thanks.



22" SAMSUNG LCD TV
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16889102123

26" SAMSUNG LCD TV
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16889102126

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Yeah, I added this (+colorimeter recommendations) as well as a Cleaning subsection to the OP.

Good idea with the Cleaning subsection. Maybe it would be worth mentioning that, if anybody absolutely has to use an alcohol solution (which they shouldn't, but maybe everything else failed), they should only use diluted isopropyl, not any other type of alcohol. As far as I know, that's the only type of alcohol commonly used for cleaning delicate surfaces, possibly coated, for example in optical equipment. I would start very 'soft', something like 20% isopropyl, 80% distilled water, and if that doesn't work, maybe try a 50-50 solution, but no more than that, even though the alcohol that you buy from the store is already diluted. Even a weak solution of alcohol could potentially cause some damage to the coating (after all, it's a solvent), so it should only be considered as a last resort.

Oh, and by the way, congratulations on the format and contents of the new post - I've been meaning to say this for some time. It's the most useful and up-to-date guide one could find on the Net at the moment, in my opinion.

 

[Skott]

I been out of the LCD loop since my last buy last year so looking for an update on the LG Flatron 22". Supposedly the best 22" for multimedia and gaming. I'm gonna order next week so thought I'd start doing my final research. My local Circuit City has the L226WTQBF in stock. I'm going to go look at it this weekend sometime but wanted to get any latest updates about it. XKnight's guide says many of the problems have been fixed in later models. Anyone got one and have an opinion wether its good or not? I'll be using it for gaming mainly when not surfing the web.

P.S. I know the 22' LCDs dont have the best panels compared to 20, 21, and 24 inch LCDs but I'm wanting a 22" anyway.