[Retired] The LCD Thread

[JKing76]

Well crap, guess that's why BenQ had it on sale last weekend. Now all they have left are stupid 1920x1080 monitors. Hopefully some new lines are about to come out.

 

[kyotousa]

Anyone know how to solve color profile problem? I have Dell 2408wfp
Due to it's wide gamut without proper LUT properties it's producing an oversaturated color in ACDsee and firefox.
However, in Adobe softwares PS CS4 & LR2 the color are undersaturated.

 

[deadken]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The Dell 2209WA is a great choice, as I've alluded to many times before. And, the graphics card should be plenty enough to handle 1680x1050 in most games. As far as $150 goes, ummm, the only suggestion I have is to get a brand name (Samsung, LG) instead of Hanns. I mean, true, Hanns makes their own LCDs (yes, surprisingly), they're just not that great of quality.

I know the ASUS VK246h is a great monitor, so I would give that ASUS 23" a shot.

VK246h: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...16824236048&Tpk=vk246h

Or even that if you want to spend the money on it. As far as 1920x1200 goes, I think you're fine, but look at benchmarks to be sure. Remember, turning on SSAA always takes significantly more bandwidth than simply raising the resolution a little. It raises bandwidth demands by squares.

Thanks for the input. I got the ASUS VH236H. My son loves it, but I have noticed an 'issue'.

When I was tweaking his set-up the other day, I was reading some information in an open window. I noticed something really weird, when I was reading a paragraph, one sentence looked a bit blurry. When I grabbed the window and moved it up or down a bit, whatever text was written at that specific height was blurry. If it was the second sentence in a paragraph, I could move the window higher and the second sentence would get clearer while the first or third would get blurry (depending whether I moved it up or down). It is very slight, but to me it is as plain as day.

So, it seems that it is definitely one section of the screen. I really need to open a window that is filled with text from top to bottom and see how many lines are fuzzy. Since my son games and surfs the web a lot, it might not be a deal. If it was my monitor, I would have already sent it back.

FWIW: I am using DVI and cleartype is on. The monitors recommended resolution is 1920 x 1080.
IIRC, I have it set for 1680x1050..

-Ken

BTW: From what I see, the Asus 24" monitor that you suggested has 1920 x 1080 resolution not 1920 x 1200.

 

[imported_rykerabel]

Originally posted by: deadken

The monitors recommended resolution is 1920 x 1080.
IIRC, I have it set for 1680x1050..

This is what is causing the alternating blur. The monitor is having to "make up" pixels to fill its actual 1080 horizontal lines with only 1050 horizontal lines of information.

 

[hotnikkelz]

download the monitor profile from tftcentral.co.uk then set it as default.
DO a goodgle search on how to configure firefox to cbe colour managed,

 

[Luddite]

Hi, I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on the new NEC 2490wuxi2. The online retailer I am thinking of ordering it from has an option to buy coverage for a zero dead pixel policy. It's about $100.

My question is, is this coverage ever worth it?

I live in Canada.

Thanks.

 

[MR STROKE]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: zod96
This is getting really annoying. The U2410 is out just about everywhere but here in the US where the company is from! And after talking with a Dell rep we probably wouldn't see the U2410 here for at least another month...

You have a good point. That really is pretty stupid.

Originally posted by: MR STROKE
Anyone have any thoughts or experience with the Apple Cinema 30' LCD?
It looks amazing aesthetically, but how is the performance and is it worth the $500 premium over other 30' monitors? or am I just paying for the Apple name and look?

It's LED-backlit, but I'm not sure how mature that technology is these days.

I would just go for a tried and true 30" like a Dell to be honest with you. Either way you're probably going to be happy though.

Is there any performance upgrade with the Apple being LED?(similar to TV's, better blacks etc.)

you recommend the Dell for the 30', which model of the 30'? is the Dell the best in the 30' range or just "bang for buck" vs the Samsung/HP/NEC??

thanks

 

[l3gion]

Hello everyone,

/*After reading several pages of this topic I would like to know your opinions about a 23" or 24" monitor, mostly to HD movies (need to have Full HD), Work and some FPS games. I don't want to spend more than 250$.

I'm from Portugal, so brands like Dell, NEC are really hard to find here. Because of this, I would like to know some LG, Samsung, HP, Asus, Acer monitors that suits my needs.
*/

I changed my mind.

I want some opinions about these three monitor-TV: LG Flatron M237WD, Samsung P2370HD or Samsung T240HD. Based on my needs, which one do you guys recommend? Any other monitor is an option.

Thank you

 

[genegold]

Originally posted by: kyotousa
Anyone know how to solve color profile problem? I have Dell 2408wfp
Due to it's wide gamut without proper LUT properties it's producing an oversaturated color in ACDsee and firefox.
However, in Adobe softwares PS CS4 & LR2 the color are undersaturated.

You'll hate to hear this now, but in serious discussions pros warn non-professional users away from PVA monitors for precisely what you are reporting - oversaturation. Set them up for Adobe Photoshop and they are oversaturated for normal web and office apps use. Firefox should be relatively better because it's color managed (unlike other browsers), but otherwise forget it. It would take me awhile to find the discussions I came across a couple of months ago when I was considering the HP PVA (or maybe the Dell), but some non-pros were posting how they had or were returning theirs.

 

[damage424]

Any suggestions for 1920x1200 GAMING lcd? Budget is fairly high, but nothing crazy. Also, how come Hanns·G HG-281DPB and ASUS VW266H didn't make it on the gaming list? Seems as a lot of people purchases those two monitors to game on.

 

[lesurderf]

I'm starting to to read about a new build and ordered two Dell 22 Inch 2209WA monitors yesterday. Since there has been inventory questions in the past I called Dell and salesperson Michael said estimated ship date would be Oct 13. That fits with my plans so I placed an order online and received an email order confirmation with estimated ship date of Oct 13.

Today received another email that order has shipped.

Your order (or part of your order) was shipped on 09/03/2009.

This e-mail contains the Estimated Delivery Date for your order(s),
along with tracking and delivery information.

I'll be back to these forums later with questions.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: azx7142
Hello,
I'm looking for a 24" LCD for gaming, but I can't decide between the BenQ G2400W and the Iiyama ProLite E2403WS, here is the link from digitalversus: http://www.digitalversus.com/d...&mo2=310&p2=2972&ph=12 .
What do you think is better?

Either one is very good....

But yeah I don't think the BenQ is available anymore anyway. Its stock has been very spotty.

Originally posted by: Suuave
I'm going to get a new 24" LCD...I've limited my choices to the following:

ASUS VK246H
BenQ G2410
Samsung 2433BW
LG W2453V-PF

Which one would be the best choice for Gaming and Movies?

Suuave

The ASUS is actually a very good choice from there, especially for free! (in your case)

Originally posted by: deadken

Originally posted by: xtknight
The Dell 2209WA is a great choice, as I've alluded to many times before. And, the graphics card should be plenty enough to handle 1680x1050 in most games. As far as $150 goes, ummm, the only suggestion I have is to get a brand name (Samsung, LG) instead of Hanns. I mean, true, Hanns makes their own LCDs (yes, surprisingly), they're just not that great of quality.

I know the ASUS VK246h is a great monitor, so I would give that ASUS 23" a shot.

VK246h: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...16824236048&Tpk=vk246h

Or even that if you want to spend the money on it. As far as 1920x1200 goes, I think you're fine, but look at benchmarks to be sure. Remember, turning on SSAA always takes significantly more bandwidth than simply raising the resolution a little. It raises bandwidth demands by squares.

Thanks for the input. I got the ASUS VH236H. My son loves it, but I have noticed an 'issue'.

When I was tweaking his set-up the other day, I was reading some information in an open window. I noticed something really weird, when I was reading a paragraph, one sentence looked a bit blurry. When I grabbed the window and moved it up or down a bit, whatever text was written at that specific height was blurry. If it was the second sentence in a paragraph, I could move the window higher and the second sentence would get clearer while the first or third would get blurry (depending whether I moved it up or down). It is very slight, but to me it is as plain as day.

So, it seems that it is definitely one section of the screen. I really need to open a window that is filled with text from top to bottom and see how many lines are fuzzy. Since my son games and surfs the web a lot, it might not be a deal. If it was my monitor, I would have already sent it back.

FWIW: I am using DVI and cleartype is on. The monitors recommended resolution is 1920 x 1080.
IIRC, I have it set for 1680x1050..

-Ken

BTW: From what I see, the Asus 24" monitor that you suggested has 1920 x 1080 resolution not 1920 x 1200.

Try native res. Otherwise you risk having issues with rendering.

Originally posted by: MR STROKE

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: zod96
This is getting really annoying. The U2410 is out just about everywhere but here in the US where the company is from! And after talking with a Dell rep we probably wouldn't see the U2410 here for at least another month...

You have a good point. That really is pretty stupid.

Originally posted by: MR STROKE
Anyone have any thoughts or experience with the Apple Cinema 30' LCD?
It looks amazing aesthetically, but how is the performance and is it worth the $500 premium over other 30' monitors? or am I just paying for the Apple name and look?

It's LED-backlit, but I'm not sure how mature that technology is these days.

I would just go for a tried and true 30" like a Dell to be honest with you. Either way you're probably going to be happy though.

Is there any performance upgrade with the Apple being LED?(similar to TV's, better blacks etc.)

you recommend the Dell for the 30', which model of the 30'? is the Dell the best in the 30' range or just "bang for buck" vs the Samsung/HP/NEC??

thanks

The Dell 3007WFP-HC is the best deal. The HP LP3065 is very similar too. And the 3008WFP is for power users (simply more inputs).

Originally posted by: l3gion
Hello everyone,

/*After reading several pages of this topic I would like to know your opinions about a 23" or 24" monitor, mostly to HD movies (need to have Full HD), Work and some FPS games. I don't want to spend more than 250$.

I'm from Portugal, so brands like Dell, NEC are really hard to find here. Because of this, I would like to know some LG, Samsung, HP, Asus, Acer monitors that suits my needs.
*/

I changed my mind.

I want some opinions about these three monitor-TV: LG Flatron M237WD, Samsung P2370HD or Samsung T240HD. Based on my needs, which one do you guys recommend? Any other monitor is an option.

Thank you

As far as the first two go, I'm not sure. The T240HD is an OK choice, not stellar. It has slower response time from what I recall (no overdrive). Try any 24" monitor from ASUS; it's bound to be better. Specifically the VK246h.

Originally posted by: genegold

Originally posted by: kyotousa
Anyone know how to solve color profile problem? I have Dell 2408wfp
Due to it's wide gamut without proper LUT properties it's producing an oversaturated color in ACDsee and firefox.
However, in Adobe softwares PS CS4 & LR2 the color are undersaturated.

You'll hate to hear this now, but in serious discussions pros warn non-professional users away from PVA monitors for precisely what you are reporting - oversaturation. Set them up for Adobe Photoshop and they are oversaturated for normal web and office apps use. Firefox should be relatively better because it's color managed (unlike other browsers), but otherwise forget it. It would take me awhile to find the discussions I came across a couple of months ago when I was considering the HP PVA (or maybe the Dell), but some non-pros were posting how they had or were returning theirs.

I don't think PVA has anything to do with it. PVA is high contrast, but the wide gamut backlight is the cause of the oversaturation problem.

Originally posted by: damage424
Any suggestions for 1920x1200 GAMING lcd? Budget is fairly high, but nothing crazy. Also, how come Hanns·G HG-281DPB and ASUS VW266H didn't make it on the gaming list? Seems as a lot of people purchases those two monitors to game on.

I don't like Hanns due to quality concerns but I've been wanting to add the ASUS monitors. Right now I will add a placeholder for them and fill in the info as I can find it. I'm only adding them for gaming for now. All I know is that they are fast cheap TN panels with a good choice of inputs. The VW266H at least has adjustable overdrive (0-100%). That's interesting.

 

[xtknight]

The new Samsung C-PVAs have been recommended (at least as soon as I can submit my post). X-Bit Labs did a comprehensive review on the 20" and 23" versions.

http://xbitlabs.com/articles/m...ng-sm-f2080-f2380.html

They have slower response time in darker tones, much like older P-MVA models, but they do sport overdrive and they work quite well for the price! I didn't have time to thoroughly look over the article, but I think that C-PVAs are S-PVAs with an older overdrive method, or something like that. Speculating, but possibly grade B as well. I don't know how they'd get them this cheap.

 

[looper]

xtknight...

First, would just like to thank you for your consciencetious attention to helping out in this massive thread! Beating a dead horse here, but if you can slog through this and respond I will be happy...

I want a 24" monitor/HDMI-DVI/,and 1920x1200 resolution(if you think it helps). It is primarily for 'FPS' online gaming (COD-WaW and the upcoming COD-MW2 due out Nov. 10th) for my son and me. I also do the standard MS Word letters/files, web-surfing, and email.

My computer is quite fast. (Specs are listed below in 'sig'). And we have a '22down/31/2up' cable connection to the game server.Our 'ping' to this server is typically @ 50-55ms. I think we have maximized our network speed as much as we can: port opened on our D-link DIR655 router for the game, shut-off background running processes, etc.

We want to maximize our speed within the game. Some folks say it's all about having a monitor that gets that image to your screen as fast as possible. Others say, of course that is important, but if you can run the game at high resolution as well, that helps you to 'see' better from distance on the game map....'see first/kill first'...As for seeing better from distance on a game map, is this true, that the better the video card, the higher the "draw distance" (how far away from where you're standing you can see) ? Supposedly, higher resolution increases detail at distance, so while it won't let you see someone further away, it will let you notice something you were able to see at a lower resolution, but couldn't tell if that something was a tree or an enemy.

I am looking at a few IPS models:
The HP 2475w and the new Dell U2410 due out here in the USA within a month or so. The HP is around @ $525. and the Dell will be more. Over at the Engadget site, news there stated LG about to come out with several IPS 'gaming' monitors. The TN monitors are much less money. But, for everyday non-gaming use?

I was running COD-WaW at 1600x1200 resolution. I am now playing at 1024x768, thinking I'm gaining some speed at lower resolution....but not really because my vid card can handle the 1920x1200 resolution the new monitor will have?

Getting a 16:10 ratio, 1:1 pixel-mapping(in case we run at non-standard resolution?), and non-wide gamut(over-saturated colors lead to inaccurate scene recognition in-game?) important in helping in terms of my goal here?

What do you folks think?

 

[zod96]

Just how good is the SAMSUNG F2380 with its CPVA panel against the Dell 2209WA with its E-IPS panel...

 

[albovin]

Originally posted by: xtknight
The new Samsung C-PVAs have been recommended (at least as soon as I can submit my post). X-Bit Labs did a comprehensive review on the 20" and 23" versions.

http://xbitlabs.com/articles/m...ng-sm-f2080-f2380.html

They have slower response time in darker tones, much like older P-MVA models, but they do sport overdrive and they work quite well for the price! I didn't have time to thoroughly look over the article, but I think that C-PVAs are S-PVAs with an older overdrive method, or something like that. Speculating, but possibly grade B as well. I don't know how they'd get them this cheap.

Dear xtknight,
As you know I have been a worldwide volunteer promoter of this site for a long time.
This is not a joke.
I do review monitors myself, I support several monitor forums in two languages, and I post much. I have never been tired of repeating: this is the place where beginners must start their search.
I admire your enthusiasm.
I value the comprehensive preface to this thread and especially the Recommendations part.
The Recommendations part used to be based on clear and logical technical principles, the content regularly updated and revised.

The first bell rang when I found a TN monitor in the PHOTO EDITING/WEB DESIGN section.
Why again about that TN (we talked already)?

This is a short story related to my Samsung F2380 review.
I happened to work on that review on a TN monitor. The task was to choose a couple of colors to match my usual blog template. This is an elementary "web design" task.
And that was funny. It wasn't possible just because the page element and the color palette were in different parts of the screen. The "right" color from the palette turned wrong when applied to the page element. After dancing in front of the monitor catching more or less appropriate viewing angle, I finally put two windows one (working window) over another (an older blog page) to physically match two pictures. Then I was trying "wrong" colors from the palette until they happened to be "right" on the page element.
After that ridiculous exercise I decided: no more TN. I will never pass by the recommendation like this even if it's supplied with an innocent remark "for leisurely/recreational work only". I will protest.

Back to the topic.
By no means I want to bash xbitlabs here although I don't share your "gold" impression of their "standards". Those reviews are translations of their russian home resource based on the internet&retail store called fcenter. We usually put a strict border between their "theoretical summary" articles that are awesome and their monitor reviews that are not "that awesome". I would stop here to be politically correct.

Much more realistic review by ToastyX from Hardforum.

Samsung's new C-PVA technology has revolutionized the low-end, economical market and offers an alternative to the harder-to-find eIPS panel type.

Excuse me, we've had the HP 2275w 22" PVA (~$330) available for at least one year and the Dell 2209WA e-IPS (~$290).
The Samsung F2380 is available for ~$320 (who-said-it's-easier-to-find?) - it's too little for "revolution"..

With a lower response time on darker tones but otherwise great performance, the F2380 should deliver for most needs, including office work, multimedia, and photo editing.

I am speechless.
Two reviews (with measurements and illustrations) are saying: colorshift on the Samsung F2380 is horrible! To make it minimally photo-editing-worthy you'll have to calibrate it. $320+$150=$470
How can we recommend it for photo editing?

Multimedia. Called High Definition monitor, it provides Half Definition on some videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOkGjFru4x0

Yes, it is a nice compact monitor for the office use.
But its vertical resolution is low.

This is an unbelievable monitor.
It seems that someone deliberately limited its potential in every aspect.
It has no wide gamut - a chance for PVA to return to the real world of images...
Nope! They made colorshift worse than ever before and killed the screen.
Same for movies.
They fixed fuzzy text on PVA. Great, give us a good screen for the office..
Nope. They cut resolution.
It's not necessary to mention that the Samsung F2380 response time is slow for games.
Is it cheap?
24"TN 16:9 can be found for ~$100 cheaper.

The real value of this monitor is that it's not a TN. That's its only real value.
Is it enough to be listed as recommended?
I don't think so.

Samsung F2080.
A 20" 16:9 PVA dwarf with 160ox900(!) resolution is recommended for photo editing/web design(?)
Do we edit photos at supermarket check-out stands?

Please pardon my emotions.
But these three straws have broken camel's back.


Looking forward to seeing more solid nominees in your Recommendations list.
With all the respect.

albovin

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: albovin
Dear xtknight,
As you know I have been a worldwide volunteer promoter of this site for a long time.
This is not a joke.
I do review monitors myself, I support several monitor forums in two languages, and I post much. I have never been tired of repeating: this is the place where beginners must start their search.
I admire your enthusiasm.
I value the comprehensive preface to this thread and especially the Recommendations part.
The Recommendations part used to be based on clear and logical technical principles, the content regularly updated and revised.

Yes, albovin, my friend, I'm aware of that and your posts are among the most valuable here. I always appreciate your contributions. At least you don't put words in my mouth and instead provide constructive criticism. Unfortunately it can be hard to see (or maybe, acknowledge). I think some other people wouldn't even bother reading your post and actually getting the useful info out of it and instead assume you were crazy. I don't assume that. I live to respond to and reap what I can from posts like this.

Here is the preface to my thought-out reply.

First, I don't think anything I've done here is patently terrible or "breaks the camel's back". I am not a regime or oligarchy. I'm open to suggestions. I don't think anybody died because they bought a CPVA monitor. It's far more useful to look at things logically. I took awhile to write the reply because otherwise I would have replied with something angry, impulsive, and illogical too. You've got some valid points but they are shrouded by tangents of fury (I'm not really sure why). Honestly it doesn't do anything for me. I take peoples' suggestions no matter how furious they are. Just because it's in text doesn't make it invalid or null.

The first bell rang when I found a TN monitor in the PHOTO EDITING/WEB DESIGN section.
Why again about that TN (we talked already)?

There has only EVER been one eIPS panel monitor in the world. And that has been reported as discontinued and out of stock for several months. So that's not your idea of "hard to find"? Is that not true??? I'd certainly like to know if there are other eIPS monitors. Besides, not everyone wants to order from Dell and wait forever for shipping.

Let's see:

I've put cpva at the end of the query because it's recently come to my attention that a bogus Samsung TN monitor is appearing in the results. Very unfortunate.

As of writing:

http://www.google.com/products...+f2380+cpva&hl=en&aq=f
Seven on the page, as far as I'm aware "in stock" everywhere.

http://www.google.com/products...+f2080+cpva&hl=en&aq=f
Again, seven.

Here lists that there are 611 in stock. It seems like a healthy product with more merchants to come. Now I'm not sure if that's true or not, but that's the status of things *now*. I would not be surprised if that changes in a month. If I had to guess, Samsung may discontinue this and bring other cPVAs to market soon. But I cannot tell the future.

http://www.google.com/products?q=dell+2209wa&hl=en&aq=f
Available from 2 sellers new (top).
[btw, inside is only one site, and it is listed as "Sorry, this product is no longer available." It is overstock only.]

The 2209WA is actually available here: http://search.dell.com/results...2209WA&cat=all&x=0&y=0

But it ships in 3-5 weeks....ouch! I don't want to wait that long for a monitor.


I'm fully aware Samsung hasn't revolutionized anything with CPVA (more likely, "evolutionized"). But when people look at what to buy, it sounds good, and if it persuades them to buy that over a TN then that's good. I said the same thing with the 2209WA. That doesn't hurt anybody. Haven't you realized that "Displays du Jour" is a little optimistic... not sure why this matters anyway. I guess it's fuel to add to the fire. In the stagnating market of non-TN LCDs pretty much any non-TN monitor is a revolution. Considering Samsung is a big company and PVA has always been more prevalent than IPS, I figured we could see many more CPVA monitors than eIPS. I was optimistic when I wrote it and I'm still happy it's there. Again, a couple optimistic sentences here are not invaliding the thread or the recommendations.

About TNs in photo editing:

The point of this was to provide a last resort, not a first-order recommendation. I guess this should be made even more clear. I thought it was. I guess it isn't. Let that be known.

Some people just want the best cheap monitor for photo editing. I would rather have them buy a good TN than a bad TN as they will often go and do. We're talking about dad and his kid editing family photos, not a production company. Yes, they should still have good quality, but sometimes they cannot afford it or sometimes they would just grab a random TN off the market and try to use it.

Let's pit this $330 cPVA against a random TN monitor at a lower price and see the results. Yes, they should be buying a $530 H-IPS (LP2475w) with the slight possibility of uniformity issues. OR maybe even a $800+ NEC 90 series. And I tell them they should be. Notice how the CPVA monitors are below the IPS ones and above the TN ones. It's not like I just deployed a CPVA payload into the Photo Editing section, only to land in some random place because I thought it was cool. I imagine maybe a thought process went into it, which admittedly isn't the case for everything I do.

What do you think is the better deal? A CPVA at $330 or TN at $220? I don't know, actually. I don't think anyone's going to question that the CPVA provides better overall performance after seeing it. It has nice contrast, generally wider viewing angles (with color shift on some dark scenes), and it's nice and bright. It's kind of cool it has two DVI-D inputs, of which you have been extolling the virtues, instead of more analog inputs like component and composite.

This is a short story related to my Samsung F2380 review.
I happened to work on that review on a TN monitor. The task was to choose a couple of colors to match my usual blog template. This is an elementary "web design" task.
And that was funny. It wasn't possible just because the page element and the color palette were in different parts of the screen. The "right" color from the palette turned wrong when applied to the page element. After dancing in front of the monitor catching more or less appropriate viewing angle, I finally put two windows one (working window) over another (an older blog page) to physically match two pictures. Then I was trying "wrong" colors from the palette until they happened to be "right" on the page element.
After that ridiculous exercise I decided: no more TN. I will never pass by the recommendation like this even if it's supplied with an innocent remark "for leisurely/recreational work only". I will protest.

Back to the topic.
By no means I want to bash xbitlabs here although I don't share your "gold" impression of their "standards". Those reviews are translations of their russian home resource based on the internet&retail store called fcenter. We usually put a strict border between their "theoretical summary" articles that are awesome and their monitor reviews that are not "that awesome". I would stop here to be politically correct.

Much more realistic review by ToastyX from Hardforum.

Samsung's new C-PVA technology has revolutionized the low-end, economical market and offers an alternative to the harder-to-find eIPS panel type.

Excuse me, we've had the HP 2275w 22" PVA (~$330) available for at least one year and the Dell 2209WA e-IPS (~$290).
The Samsung F2380 is available for ~$320 (who-said-it's-easier-to-find?) - it's too little for "revolution"..

With a lower response time on darker tones but otherwise great performance, the F2380 should deliver for most needs, including office work, multimedia, and photo editing.

I am speechless.
Two reviews (with measurements and illustrations) are saying: colorshift on the Samsung F2380 is horrible! To make it minimally photo-editing-worthy you'll have to calibrate it. $320+$150=$470
How can we recommend it for photo editing?

Multimedia. Called High Definition monitor, it provides Half Definition on some videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOkGjFru4x0

Yes, it is a nice compact monitor for the office use.
But its vertical resolution is low.

This is an unbelievable monitor.
It seems that someone deliberately limited its potential in every aspect.
It has no wide gamut - a chance for PVA to return to the real world of images...
Nope! They made colorshift worse than ever before and killed the screen.
Same for movies.
They fixed fuzzy text on PVA. Great, give us a good screen for the office..
Nope. They cut resolution.
It's not necessary to mention that the Samsung F2380 response time is slow for games.
Is it cheap?
24"TN 16:9 can be found for ~$100 cheaper.

The real value of this monitor is that it's not a TN. That's its only real value.
Is it enough to be listed as recommended?
I don't think so.

Anyway I am not sure where we disagree. Mostly, we are exchanging factoids both of us already know in the interest of finding that out.

Here comes an exception. The video is the cliffhanger.

Why don't you do the same viewing angle video with a TN? Then maybe I would agree with your arguments. Please also do the same thing with a Dell 2408WFP if you don't mind. I want to see a difference between C-PVA and S-PVA. I'm generally not afraid to always recommend S-PVA above TN. Maybe the color shift is actually worse on the PVA than it is on the TN. I'd wager the horizontal shift is probably worse for cases like that. I don't know, because I don't have a source of information for that.

Anyway, by no means do I think that S-PVA monitors are bad for Multimedia. Are C-PVA ones technologically worse?

A lot of people watch movies on their cell phones, ipods, laptops, and inbuilt horrible TN panels in "portable DVD players". Some of them don't even have basic viewing angle compensation film! Tons of people watch them on regular TN+Film monitors. Now please tell me the CPVA panel is a bad idea for watching movies. There's people that would die to see that kind of quality on most motion pictures. I'd imagine about 95% of HD images look great on the monitor.

You seem to believe that I'm only here to recommend monitors to high demanding professionals like you and I, but that's simply not the case. That's why you and I use H-IPS monitors on a daily basis and the rest of the world doesn't. For the chief reason that "we give a crap". If I get people to start caring just a little and drastically increase the number of PVA and IPS monitors on the market, then I've reached my goal. What you need to realize is that the CPVA monitors actually are not high on my lists. So fine, maybe they're not as good of a deal as I say they are. But they sure as hell are better than TN panels in a lot of cases, and the contrast is amazing. Maybe you forgot how bad TN panels were for certain activities (somehow people get by with those too).

As far as X-Bit Labs goes, I trust them more than anyone else and still do. Their reviews are uncannily comprehensive. I don't even know who makes response time graphs anymore besides them. Perhaps some foreign site I cannot find, or Tom's Hardware Guide a long time ago. Anyway, very interesting about fcenter. I did not know that, probably because I don't know Russian nor do I visit foreign sites regularly.

The LP2275w has many reports of poor quality control. Just look at Newegg's comments section. So that one was out. Has that one been fixed? I don't know. If it has, I would recommend it just like I recommend the LP2475w. I've got nothing against it and I would love to know the answer. I guess I need to search the dark annals of HardForum some more.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...6824176098&Tpk=LP2275w

Next, the 2209WA, whose eIPS panel I regard higher than C-PVA: several people reported that the monitor was out of stock for months and that it had been discontinued. That doesn't look like a keeper, but it's still up there just in case the situation changes.

Unfortunately this is not a world where everyone & their mother can have IPS panels.

You go on crusades against the 2408WFP and about how bad its color shifting is, and people come back here and say it's the best monitor they've ever used. So I should take it off my list because you think it has bad color shifting? Come on man...answer me this, if you were me would you remove it from the lists? And remove all the TNs from Multimedia too? Maybe only have TNs under Gaming or hypothetical Value sections? Honestly I still have not found a "best" way to organize my list, but this has been working pretty well so far. Again open to suggestions and I've said that countless times. I might disagree with their merits but I don't ignore them. I am sure I have implemented at least half of the (reasonable) suggestions that come here within my abilities, maybe if not all of them.

I've been told many times I should have more value LCDs on my list, and that's what I'm trying to do. But when I'm told the opposite thing, then what am I supposed to do? I decided to have a few of them up there where I can. There's only one TN in the Photo Editing category right now, and also that's because it does quite well with color accuracy. It's also under a "Great Wall" barrier, which might need to be exaggerated even more so that people take heed to it. Or maybe it needs to be changed to a "last resort" style of wording. I need not only criticism here but suggestions.

Samsung F2080.
A 20" 16:9 PVA dwarf with 160ox900(!) resolution is recommended for photo editing/web design(?)
Do we edit photos at supermarket check-out stands?

Please pardon my emotions.
But these three straws have broken camel's back.


Looking forward to seeing more solid nominees in your Recommendations list.
With all the respect.

albovin

[/quote]

1600x900 (16:9) isn't that much different than 1680x1050 (16:10). The latter is perfectly fine IMO for editing and viewing websites.

I don't understand why the vertical resolution is a big deal. 900 pixels tall is not much different from 768, 960, and 1024, all common vertical resolutions on the web. Websites don't stretch like videos do. If you think it's too small, then don't buy it I guess. Buy the 23" version that's very tall. No reason to take it off the recommendations on this basis.

About PVAs and blurry text: (never mind, this is about S-PVAs and not C-PVAs then. you said C-PVAs fixed it. I see there is a slight pixel structure difference between the two.)

I don't know about this. I've used many PVAs and I don't see it. I also don't see why exactly the pixel structure would contribute to it that much. Therefore I still think PVAs are great for office work. They don't have screen door issues like some IPS panels and bad viewing angle issues like TNs. Yeah, they do have color shift, but that's not nearly as bad as the TN problems in most cases. Again, most people won't notice. And, yes, this thread is about most people, not only enthusiasts. I try to serve both by ranking LCDs properly. I think we agree my rankings are correct as they stand, although we may disagree on whether the scale is linear or logarithmic, so to speak. I can only indicate scale by putting things in the Notes for each entry or by demarcating them with barriers.

Ya I suppose 16:9 1600x900 is a little strange for office work. But if that's the aspect and size you're looking for, then get it. I think it's that simple. If you don't realize what you're getting, that is not my fault. I would be recommending 19" and 17" widescreens too, I just can't find decent ones. I try to put all the sizes up there that I can. In the past I did omit the smaller widescreens, but now I see no reason to. Someone asked me why I did that and I didn't have a good answer other than that "they were too small for my taste". It's "notes" material I guess, but not a grounds for demotion.

Now I have to decide what to do with the barrier in Photo Editing. Other than that, my tentative plans are to not change anything else until we clarify further why, or if, you think CPVAs are a bad idea in the other places, as I do value your opinions, reviews, and research. And I will add your review to the notes of the F2380.

Some people do edit photos at kiosks. There are many stations here that allow you to do that last time I checked. Although maybe that's not what you meant. People edit them on laptops a lot too with poorly connected VGA interfaces to an external TN monitor.

Also I am glad these LCDs are not wide gamut because most people don't use it properly. Chalk that up as an advantage. Imagine if someone bought the LP2475w, didn't use it properly, and would have been better off with a CPVA.

Now as an amendment to this I have read about CPVA being a little worse at the blackness issue which you show in the video, perhaps because it has one less zone (and four less domains total) than S-PVA. Again though for my recommendations I am most interested about CPVAs in relativity to TNs. I previously wasn't aware CPVAs had a different structure than S-PVAs, such that they are more like original PVAs now (a la 2405FPW), but still not bad. Although I love learning technical material, I have not had valuable time to tirelessly obsess over technical differences. Many people loved the original PVA monitors. In a way CPVAs are an antidote that cannot wait to be administered to the snake poison of TN monitors on the market right now. You think they are not much better, but I do. Only you have used a CPVA so only you can tell me that (at least your opinion of it) for sure I guess.

I hope this has addressed or even "answered" all your concerns. Let me know if I missed something. I'm trying to make the LCD market "better", not "perfect". It is a very incremental process. Simply having $800 LCDs up on the list is not going to be very convincing. I need a midrange, and CPVAs/eIPS are those midrange.

You will continue to see solid recommendations, as I believe everything currently up there is. And OLEDs when they come out, too. This thread is a way for me to channel my obsessions about monitors and helping others. No it's not always going to be perfect though, that doesn't need to be said.

I think that is enough for me for tonight. I'll think about the barrier in Photo Editing and maybe some other things.

Please continue to contribute.

Thank you.

P.S. I think this is better wording, is it not?

Samsung's new C-PVA technology has revived the midrange market by restoring the traditional PVA panel and offers an alternative to the harder-to-find eIPS panel. With a lower response time on darker tones but otherwise great performance, the F2380 should deliver for most needs, including office work, multimedia, and photo editing. It is not recommended for hardcore gaming.

And yes, maybe the barrier for Photo Editing should be less innocent-sounding or maybe I should branch off the "value" photo editing LCDs altogether. I may do the latter.

I've noticed a stark difference between ToastyX's gamma results and X-Bit Labs:

http://xbitlabs.com/articles/m...-sm-f2080-f2380_6.html
vs
http://www.hardforum.com/showp...034329391&postcount=34

What's up with that? Even your review says dE 0.7 is possible, although I am not sure what gamma curves you ended up with. Can you look into it, perhaps?

Then we can determine if it should be recommended for Photo Editing at all.

Still, I don't think X-Bit Labs is wrong. There are probably different settings yielding these gamma curves. Let's face it, even the NEC 20WMGX2 was bad in some cases.

Also, I think that there is a fundamental problem with the way you guys are reviewing this LCD.

Picking the worst pixel transition to test response time, testing it, and extrapolating the poor results to include every multimedia activity is asinine. This monitor is no worse than most PVAs or P-MVAs, which in themselves have been decent monitors.

Yes, 16-19 ms on the other tones isn't really that fast and these definitely aren't gaming monitors. Nor are they worse than a lot of older TNs for many transitions.

To obtain reliable display of 24 fps you would need at least 41.66 ms response time. The monitor far exceeds that speed in most transitions. If you're watching 30 fps, you need 33.33 ms response time. Same deal here, it's far exceeded. Even at 60 fps it does not fare all that badly, needing to reach 16.66 ms.

I've played with a P-MVA. I did not like it for gaming because of the dark transition problem. Although, the problem rarely if ever cropped up during movies or general use.

 

[Skyfire360]

Hey all!

Looking for suggestions on a 1920x1200 gaming monitor. I looked at the BenQ G2400WD and liked it, but it'd discontinued now and I don't want to risk getting a monitor from an outlet that could be rife with dead pixels. Also glanced at the Acer G24, but the orange bezel put me off somewhat... that, and like the BenQ it's discontinued.

Any suggestions? Most of the monitors I'm finding are 1920x1080. I'd really like that extra 120 vertical pixel resolution if possible.

Thanks!

Edit: Just saw the post was updated with the ASUS VK266H. Looks promising! Though I've read some horror stories about ASUS' dead pixel policy. Thoughts?

 

[zod96]

This doublesight DS-265W monitor is outstanding except in one dept. Backlight, this thing is like a super nova. During the day its fine, but at night it lights up my whole room without having to turn on a lamp. I can turn the brightness and contrast down to 47. Then its somewhat better. Anything below 47 and the blacks during gaming are way way to dark I can barely see anything. Which is funny because if I turn it down to say 44 on the desktop its fine, but in games it bad. One thing I do really like is the test on this monitor. It is by far tge clearest and easiest to read out of any monitor I've ever had. I will probably keep it. I just wish their was a way to lower the brightness a bit more. Xtknight any ideas on that???

 

[xtknight]

The F2080 and F2380 have been pulled from Photo Editing already due to conflicting gamma curve graphs.

 

[MrGiGs]

Hi guys,

Firstly I wanted to thank xtknight for a great set of initial posts I enjoyed reading them alot (yes, I did actually read them all properly too)

I'd like to ask for some opinions on a monitor to buy, I have around £200, and the following are the model numbers I've seen around, that I can afford and seem to be in plenty of stock. Please would anyone with a spare moment advise me on which is the best for someone who Games alot, surfs the internet alot, and does some Photo and Video editing (nothing professional, more mediocre borderline amateur). I'd prefer average/good colour reproduction, good contrast (preferably at mid brightness) <10ms response, and 24'' (I'd prefer 24'', as I want something bigger than my current 22'', I'll seriously consider a 23'' if there are some really nice ones in my price range (which I doubt, £200 isn't alot for a 'good' monitor). 16:9 / 16:10 I don't mind which 1080p/1200p, makes no real difference to me, I intend it solely for PC usage, so a HDMI isn't necessary but I would prefer DVi over just VGA.

Dell S2409W (£202)
BenQ E2400HD (£168)
LG W2442PA-BF (£190)
Samsung SM2433BW (£206)


Any other recommendations are highly appreciated, as of course is your Time and Experience.

Thanks in Advance!


~Mr.GiGs

(PS, the reason i want to replace my current 22'', is its a Belinea o.display_2 22'', and its ok, but I recently was given a Samsung 205BW, and I hadn't realise just how poor my Belinea was, but I want to switch to a large single display for Windows 7, rather than the 2x 1680x1050 monitors Im currently using for WinXP)

 

[albovin]

xtknight, thank you for your reply.

Some notes.

You go on crusades against the 2408WFP and about how bad its color shifting is, and people come back here and say it's the best monitor they've ever used.

Quotes from my Dell 2408WFP review:

"Among myriads of images around us one can find those less susceptible to color shifting. Below are examples... "
"*VA?s black crush is less pronounced on motion pictures than on static ones, but viewing angles remain far from ideal..."
"1080p on the Dell 2408 is something special. In some aspects it does not yield a grain to the reference monitor...If you sit in front of the Dell 2408 or (even better) about 5-10 degrees off axis ? you can see HD picture at it?s best...Beyond this point washout begins and the picture is not comparable with the reference monitor anymore."
"As a VA monitor, the Dell 2408 does not pass #1 (Photographic quality picture with no issues ). Nevertheless, if you manage to squeeze you standard gamut images between Scylla of color shifting and Kharibda of wide gamut issues ? this is a great display."
"...I would recommend the Dell 2408 as a choice #1 within this price&quality level."

The LP2275w has many reports of poor quality control.

I don't mean that it should be among recommended.
I just mean that "PVA's marketing revolution" happened long before the Samsung F2380. BTW the HP 2275w I bought last year has been working with no issues.

As far as X-Bit Labs goes, I trust them more than anyone else and still do. Their reviews are uncannily comprehensive. I don't even know who makes response time graphs anymore besides them.

Yes, they seem to be the only who makes response time graphs.
Probably there is a reason for that.
Vincent Alzieu from beharware.com says:
"Initially, we wanted to physically measure afterglow with an oscilloscope. We approached an electronics specialist, Tektronics, and they were nice enough to supply us with a sensor + oscilloscope combo of their making. This was to be used to measure the transition from white to light gray, white to a darker gray, gray to black, etc. We came up with some great 3D graphs but the problem was that practical tests (based on a visual evaluation) didn?t always match these results. A screen that was judged more reactive with the oscilloscope sometimes appeared to our eyes as being slower than other products. We therefore abandoned this method to come back to more practical, concrete, and in our opinion, realistic tests."

About "comprehensive":
They skip dE tests and omit a major part of monitor test such as DVD/HD video/Console games support, etc.
"Golden standard":
For example, according to this review LED backlight PVA has no black at all with max CR 402:1.

1600x900 (16:9) isn't that much different than 1680x1050 (16:10). The latter is perfectly fine IMO for editing and viewing websites.

Please don't forget that 1600x900 is 20" but 1680x1050 is 22"!

I did omit the smaller widescreens, but now I see no reason to. Someone asked me why I did that and I didn't have a good answer other than that "they were too small for my taste".

Yes, Sir!
As you carry this mountain on your shoulders - you have to have a good taste.
And you teach them, you educate them.
I don't consider this site as a department store to please everyone's specific taste.
They come here to get an advise and learn a good lesson.
"Good taste"= reasonable standards is a valuable thing. People need places to come and see what is good, what is not and why.

When "Blind Electronics" announces its new "revolutionary breathtaking 15000000:1 15" masterpiece just for ...." that is actually another garbage - someone has to say that.

"Blind Electronics" makes their monitors smaller.
But Mother Nature does not make us smaller. Human vision, perception of space and size, ergonomic requirements, professional skills don't grow smaller. Therefore there is no reason for us to use and especially recommend any equipment that is smaller than what we normally use for a particular kind of activity.

Ya I suppose 16:9 1600x900 is a little strange for office work.

Why suppose?
It's obvious!

But if that's the aspect and size you're looking for, then get it.

Yes, but not here. Costco is open! 1600x900 office miracle is right between air conditioners and frozen fish.

You seem to believe that I'm only here to recommend monitors to high demanding professionals like you and I,

No, no, no. Never, never. I share your "wider view".
But I think little more clear minimal standards would help.

I want to see a difference between C-PVA and S-PVA.

One obvious thing: c-PVA has more eye-friendly pixel structure.
Very possible thing: c-PVA provides for deeper black.
Also: the F2380 has no wide gamut.
All three things are positive.
We know examples of unsuccessful models just because they were poorly designed/balanced (nothing related to panel technology): Dell 2407-HC, Gateway 2475, LG 2000 (1600x1200 IPS), etc.
So the Samsung F2380 may be just one of those?
I can imagine well equipped standard gamut 27" c-PVA monitor (sure with colorshift but within limits) with improved black.. Could be a great monitor!
Text on S-PVA is not too fuzzy. For most people it's OK. But people with sharp vision can see this difference:http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5033/211it.jpg

I've noticed a stark difference between ToastyX's gamma results and X-Bit Labs...What's up with that? Even your review says dE 0.7 is possible, although I am not sure what gamma curves you ended up with. Can you look into it, perhaps?

After proper calibration dE=0.7 is possible. Why not? Gamma was corrected. Colorshift returned to the "normal" for PVA limits.
I did not save correction curve. Originally I did not plan to go that far with the F2380 review (I had just 3 main questions about c-PVA). But I had to look at the curve because of significant gamma abnormality. The curve looked like what ToastyX had.
I have numbers.
ToastyX's curve follows these numbers.

I think we agree my rankings are correct as they stand, although we may disagree on whether the scale is linear or logarithmic, so to speak. I can only indicate scale by putting things in the Notes for each entry or by demarcating them with barriers.

Yes, it's hard to combine all in one. But you are doing a great work.

IMO I would set a bottom border.
Monitors below 20" and/or 1050 vertical resolution are not classified.
Monitors begin from 20" and 1050 for desktops. Everything below is uncountable plankton. Those screens are for notebooks.
Hm! I wrote this and then decided to look at prad.de.
Exactly. They don't review below 20" and /or 1050. They don't waste time on that.


About VA vs TN. I agree with you. *VAs of comparable size are always over unless we talk about very specific cases. You probably did not understood me right when I compared prices (23" c-PVA for ~$330 vs 24" TN for ~$240). My own choice would be the first one. I was talking about the "revolution". For the "revolution" IPS/PVA must be slightly more expensive but the same size, or sligtly smaller but the same price.

Thak you for your patience.
Best wishes.

 

[Luddite]

Originally posted by: albovin
Text on S-PVA is not too fuzzy. For most people it's OK. But people with sharp vision can see this difference:http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5033/211it.jpg

It looks like the Dell in that image is slightly sharper in text. Is that because of the higher contrast?

 

[tuan209]

Hey guys,

I just received my 2209wa and it seems that the very right edge of the screen is darker than the rest of the monitor. Is this uniform problem with the lcd? Should I send back for a replacement?

Btw... I am using a vga connection since I hooked this lcd to my laptop. Not sure if this has anything to do with it.

Tuan

 

[xtknight]

They come here to get an advise and learn a good lesson.
"Good taste"= reasonable standards is a valuable thing. People need places to come and see what is good, what is not and why.

albovin,

You've got some points. You really do.

Honestly I don't *know* if there is a market for 1600x900 20" LCDs.

Nevertheless, I am judging the LCDs by their image quality. By that token the F2080 passed due to its high contrast, good text readability, and 4-domain PVA panel for wide bright viewing angles. I guess the color shift knocks it out of Photo Editing. The poor gamma curve (according to you and ToastyX for the F2380, at least) does too. X-Bit's graph looked better than average, that's what confused me. I guess that's fair enough. It's not *bad* for Photo Editing, but it's certainly not that good either. Arguably it's average. So it shouldn't be specifically recommended. And maybe the barrier shouldn't exist and I simply need to re-tighten up my criteria. I don't really know.

What I really *want* to do is not recommend the small LCDs. I don't *want* to recommend 17" or 19" screens. But I also don't want to limit people. With few decent 19" or 20" standard options out there anymore I feel the need to put something small up there.

Let's just say I'm indifferent at this point.

Originally posted by: albovin
Yes, they seem to be the only who makes response time graphs.
Probably there is a reason for that.
Vincent Alzieu from beharware.com says:
"Initially, we wanted to physically measure afterglow with an oscilloscope. We approached an electronics specialist, Tektronics, and they were nice enough to supply us with a sensor + oscilloscope combo of their making. This was to be used to measure the transition from white to light gray, white to a darker gray, gray to black, etc. We came up with some great 3D graphs but the problem was that practical tests (based on a visual evaluation) didn?t always match these results. A screen that was judged more reactive with the oscilloscope sometimes appeared to our eyes as being slower than other products. We therefore abandoned this method to come back to more practical, concrete, and in our opinion, realistic tests."

I think the reason is that most people don't have the patience (or, maybe budget) to set up a photo sensor and oscilloscope to measure the devices. It's far easier to use a camera, and I suppose, practical as well. There are indeed other factors than simply rise and fall time but actually these graphs tell a pretty good story of how the LCD performs across the board. You can't get that from looking at the blurry speedy race car guy, although maybe that's helpful too. Why BeHardware wouldn't provide both is beyond me.

It's been nearly a year and a half since BeHardware has reviewed an LCD, interestingly enough. DigitalVersus' reviews seem awfully similar though.

I don't consider this site as a department store to please everyone's specific taste.

I try to make this as little of a department store as possible. 21/24 of the LCDs on my Office Work list are not TNs, and also 16/19 of the Multimedia category are non-TN. I only recommend TNs when they are for some reason exceptional, or for Gaming.

None of my first-line Photo recommendations are TN, either. As soon as my Anandtech editing works, the C-PVAs will also be out, as while they are accurate apparently they lose a large number of colors after calibration.

I've noticed a stark difference between ToastyX's gamma results and X-Bit Labs...What's up with that? Even your review says dE 0.7 is possible, although I am not sure what gamma curves you ended up with. Can you look into it, perhaps?

After proper calibration dE=0.7 is possible. Why not? Gamma was corrected. Colorshift returned to the "normal" for PVA limits.
I did not save correction curve. Originally I did not plan to go that far with the F2380 review (I had just 3 main questions about c-PVA). But I had to look at the curve because of significant gamma abnormality. The curve looked like what ToastyX had.
I have numbers.
ToastyX's curve follows these numbers.

Yes, even though the deltaE is good I am not particularly impressed by the lack of colors (poor gamma curve), so these are out of Photo Editing. (However, X-Bit Labs' gamma curve showed better results than either of yours). I guess I will just have to trust the majority. And that seems like a pretty good deltaE for a graph like that, but who knows I guess...

Yes, it's hard to combine all in one. But you are doing a great work.

IMO I would set a bottom border.
Monitors below 20" and/or 1050 vertical resolution are not classified.
Monitors begin from 20" and 1050 for desktops. Everything below is uncountable plankton. Those screens are for notebooks.
Hm! I wrote this and then decided to look at prad.de.
Exactly. They don't review below 20" and /or 1050. They don't waste time on that.

Yeah, prad used to do that more, but not anymore. Nobody has lately. Except that X-Bit has had a couple 19" widescreen reviews.

I could do this, I guess. In fact I sort of have been. As I say I thought 17" and 19" widescreen were just too small. The only reason I recommended the F2080 really was because it was a CPVA and because it was appropriately priced. I am also very impressed by the high contrast. Other than that, it's not really exceptional. It comes at the cost of black crush. But the F2380 is a more standard 1920x1080 screen with potential, for sure. And for the price of the F2380 maybe the F2080 isn't even worth at all?

About VA vs TN. I agree with you. *VAs of comparable size are always over unless we talk about very specific cases. You probably did not understood me right when I compared prices (23" c-PVA for ~$330 vs 24" TN for ~$240). My own choice would be the first one. I was talking about the "revolution". For the "revolution" IPS/PVA must be slightly more expensive but the same size, or sligtly smaller but the same price.

Thak you for your patience.
Best wishes.

Does the F2380 have 1:1, Aspect, or Full scaling options? I saw a mention of PC and AV mode in Toasty's review.

Yes, albovin, thanks for helping me out. I believe I did not research them thoroughly enough and made some assumptions. But nevertheless I still believe F2080 and F2380 are good Multimedia monitors. Office Work and Photo Editing, not so much. The F2380 is good for Office Work though, it's a slightly more standard res. So the plan is to take F2080 out of Office Work and both out of Photo Editing.

Still, these monitors have lots going for them. Many pros and cons taken from your review.

[*]Two digital inputs, and VGA
[*]1080p input and proper overscan control
[*]Real sRGB
[*]True 16:9 widescreen, not 16:10
[*]Low input lag, low-error RTC, however problems with dark tones
[*]Very high contrast, bright, and efficient (high transmissivity due to VA)
[*]Bright, wide viewing angles due to VA
[*]Sharp *enough* text
[*]No screen door effect like IPS (lighter or smaller pixel lining? not sure about this, but most VA are easier on the eyes IMO)
[*]Soft anti-glare coating
[*]Great ergonomics (tilt,pivot,swivel,height adjustment,mount) and small bezel for dual monitors
[*]Well priced
[*]Good accuracy after calibration, however lots of detail loss

The main problem I see with them is the black crush (poor default gamma correction). The color shifting isn't good either. When I say good viewing angles I chiefly mean for text, that is, VAs are brighter than IPS screens when viewed at wide angles. Gamma gets all messed up, yeah, and you get that yellow and purplish going on. So the panel's not the best thing in the world but at least it's a good package and the panel isn't a TN.

I don't like the F2080's odd res a whole lot, but it's not a problem for Multimedia. Maybe not a problem for some other things although not preferable or recommendable. That's the consensus I've reached.