[Retired] The LCD Thread

[Kalessian]

Just to update on my flickering issue... the monitor goes *crazy* with upward-creeping horizontal lines when I have ZSNES open in a window. Weird...

 

[FireChicken]

Any word on any up and coming LCD panels being released. I know that samsung just release a few new models. Any other manufactures releasing new LCD's for the holidays? Looks like viewsonic is releasing a new 22" vx2240w, 4000:1 dynamic, 1000:1 typical contrast 2ms gtg; 5ms Black to white Coming in Nov. Anybody else know any more?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Cheex
There is a new arrival @ Newegg that I just needed to ask about.

What can anyone tell me about this monitor:
SAMSUNG 2220WM Black 22" 5ms DVI Widescreen

TN, but other than that I don't know much about it. I know they also have a 2280HD model out. Most of these new 22" displays are just rehashes so I don't count on much new in terms of image quality. You may however get the benefit of having different inputs, but maybe even at the expense of image quality or other features.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar
Would that BenQ be a contender (even if not ideal) for print-target media processing? I'm still holding out for the 26" NEC that we discussed last week, but in the meantime I thought I'd get a mid-range 24" monitor. Then, when I get the 26" NEC, the 24" monitor will get passed on to my husband.

I'd like to keep the cost to around $500-600 -- even though it'll be a "temporary" monitor for me, and my husband probably won't be able to tell the difference, I don't want to buy a real cheap one. And of course I don't want to spend TOO much, since I'll be spending over a thou on the NEC.

So I was considering the 24" Dell Ultrasharp, which I had planned to get from Costco when they had it for $609, but now they list it (maybe it's an updated model) for $649. How does the BenQ stack up against the Dell?

Wow, yes, that is a lot of moolah.

But I suppose yes if that's the route you want to take, the 24" BenQ certainly isn't a bad idea. It's not wide gamut though so it really has no advantages specific to print-media processing. The 2407WFP-HC may actually be a better choice. Not only is it cheaper ([covering my butt:] at least in some countries) but it has a wider gamut.

BTW, is there a reason why Eizos are not listed? Is it because they are so expensive? (I hadn't really considered them because of the cost, but was curious to know hw they stack up against the NECs.)

The Eizos? Well, they just aren't as good as the NEC monitors, they're more expensive, and Eizo has been known for deceptive practices like hooking up competitors' monitor rigs to VGA to try and show the Eizos' superiority (over DVI). I'm not too fond of them.

A lot of the Eizos are using S-PVAs now which are inherently less quality for photo editing than the polarized S-IPS panels that the NEC 90 series use. How they compare to the Dell, well they would probably be better, but all you have to do is look at the price. An Eizo is no temp monitor, it's a huge, long-term investment, and usually a bad one at that. Of course, always be careful of blanket statements but the NEC 90 series are simply a better choice overall. They use only the best panels, have extremely tight calibration, and are priced only at what they are worth.

The Eizo S2411W is $1275 and the NEC LCD2490WUXi is $1150, and it goes without saying that you are getting less performance out of the Eizo since it uses a VA panel, which has more viewing angle issues. The S2411W isn't wide gamut either making it even less suitable.

Read Tamlin's posts here: http://www.hardforum.com/showt...d.php?t=1180814&page=4

The lower black level isn't that important. My L226WT had a lower black level but that doesn't mean much. My NEC 20WMGX2 with a higher black level still showed significantly more detail. Go by uniformity, gamma control/deltaE, and viewing angle stability when it comes to revealing detail. I know the NEC leads in uniformity and viewing angle stability, and I am pretty sure it does in deltaE measurements too.

At least for photo editing, once you use an S-IPS you will never go back. Those who can not notice the tone shift of an S-PVA have never used an S-IPS panel.

Originally posted by: boglwe
the Sharp 32inchers, 1080p's should be added to the list. I own one, I love it, its a great gaming monitor. I do Indesign and photoshop as well with it.

How is the overscan on them? I'd love to add some more monitors. If you don't know I'll see what I can find in regards to overscan.

Originally posted by: Kalessian
Just to update on my flickering issue... the monitor goes *crazy* with upward-creeping horizontal lines when I have ZSNES open in a window. Weird...

I don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by: FireChicken
Any word on any up and coming LCD panels being released. I know that samsung just release a few new models. Any other manufactures releasing new LCD's for the holidays? Looks like viewsonic is releasing a new 22" vx2240w, 4000:1 dynamic, 1000:1 typical contrast 2ms gtg; 5ms Black to white Coming in Nov. Anybody else know any more?

Newer 22" models are asked about a lot in here (which certainly isn't a bad thing). I can say with much confidence that within the next two months, no 22" models will sport anything revolutionary over what's already out there (2280HD, 226BW, 226CW, L226WT, ...). It is basically physically impossible at this point for the ViewSonic to have a contrast ratio higher than the Samsung since:

a) ViewSonic rarely uses Samsung panels.
b) There is no 22" panel out there that reaches over what the Samsung already does.

The Samsung 226BW (though, S panel) will remain the creme de la creme probably until the end of this year, or even later. Wide gamut panels may attempt to displace it but I don't think their response time will be quite as fast. The Samsung's 10 ms is so far unrivaled.

Unless AUO just released another 22" panel, its response time will simply be average for these days (e.g. 226BW A panel). The 226BW "A" is good though, since it comes with a low input lag like the "S" panel (but this may be because of the monitor, not the vendor-supplied panel module itself).

The 4000:1 rating means a new marketing team was hired, not much more than that. (aren't I so optimistic? : ) )

ClearMotiv just means that they use newer TN panels with properties that make them have a fast response (low cell gap, low viscosity, etc). Every manufacturer does this nowadays. It also means you have a 6-bit panel because it is less precise when it is faster.

Amplified Impulse means they use an Overdrive chip, aka. response time compensation.

The dynamic contrast ratio is the range from the darkest black to the brightest white that the LCD can display (this is calculated based off different scenes, so it is useless even if it is not already inflated). The static contrast ratio, 1000:1, means that it can display white 1000 times brighter than black in the same scene. Optimistically speaking it will reach 900:1 in reality.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: boglwe
the Sharp 32inchers, 1080p's should be added to the list. I own one, I love it, its a great gaming monitor. I do Indesign and photoshop as well with it.

It does look like a great monitor. Unfortunately I have read you can't turn off dynamic contrast, making it a little less ideal for HTPC use. Can you confirm that on your unit?

It may still be suitable though I will have to make note of that in its entry.

It would also be nice if you could confirm whether or not every single pixel of the display is lit when hooked up to all of its connections (i.e., no "DVI/HDMI overscan").

From what I read, the "Vyper Drive" feature reduces scaler lag but I can't confirm this.

 

[crowley]

I want to get a 20.1" 1680x1050 like the NEC20WGX2 or the Dell 2007WFP, but I'm concerned about the small dot pitch (for web surfing and office programs).

Now I have a 17" LCD with 1280x1024 and the dot pitch is fine.

Is there a way to "simulate", in terms of font and menu sizes, the smaller dot pitch of the 20.1" screens on my 17" screen, so that I would be able to see what it would look like? Maybe change the windows DPI to the values listed here (in pixels per inch):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_pitch
or something similar?

Thanks.

 

[dapthar]

I know you must get tired of hearing this, but I just wanted to thank xtknight for putting all of this information out there, it's the best resource on the web for LCDs, bar none.

I've just got three questions:

1.) What's stopping the 25.5" Planar PX2611W from being included in the hardcore gaming category? Bad brightness, contrast ratio, etc.?

(I'd like to know because I'm guessing there's some glaring error that I'm missing, and I'm seriously considering this LCD for gaming.)

2.) Is there anything out there better than the Planar PX 2611W if I want an 8-bit, 1900 x 1200 panel with low response time?

3.) Is there a single card setup out there now that can drive a 1900 x 1200 LCD for FPS gaming, or do I need to depend on SLI/Crossfire to have any chance of getting a decent framerate?

I'd like to get a widescreen LCD, but since the games I play are primarily FPSs, I don't want to get an LCD looks pretty on the desktop, but that I can't play games on that are coming out in a few weeks (UT3, Crysis, etc.) at 60+ FPS with some eye candy turned on (not everything on high, but enough beyond medium settings so it looks nice).

 

[Cheex]

Originally posted by: dapthar
I know you must get tired of hearing this, but I just wanted to thank xtknight for putting all of this information out there, it's the best resource on the web for LCDs, bar none.

I totally agree. Two thumbs up for xtknight!!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Cheex]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Newer 22" models are asked about a lot in here (which certainly isn't a bad thing). I can say with much confidence that within the next two months, no 22" models will sport anything revolutionary over what's already out there (2280HD, 226BW, 226CW, L226WT, ...). It is basically physically impossible at this point for the ViewSonic to have a contrast ratio higher than the Samsung since:

a) ViewSonic rarely uses Samsung panels.
b) There is no 22" panel out there that reaches over what the Samsung already does.

The Samsung 226BW (though, S panel) will remain the creme de la creme probably until the end of this year, or even later. Wide gamut panels may attempt to displace it but I don't think their response time will be quite as fast. The Samsung's 10 ms is so far unrivaled.

Unless AUO just released another 22" panel, its response time will simply be average for these days (e.g. 226BW A panel). The 226BW "A" is good though, since it comes with a low input lag like the "S" panel (but this may be because of the monitor, not the vendor-supplied panel module itself).

The 4000:1 rating means a new marketing team was hired, not much more than that. (aren't I so optimistic? : ) )

ClearMotiv just means that they use newer TN panels with properties that make them have a fast response (low cell gap, low viscosity, etc). Every manufacturer does this nowadays. It also means you have a 6-bit panel because it is less precise when it is faster.

Amplified Impulse means they use an Overdrive chip, aka. response time compensation.

The dynamic contrast ratio is the range from the darkest black to the brightest white that the LCD can display (this is calculated based off different scenes, so it is useless even if it is not already inflated). The static contrast ratio, 1000:1, means that it can display white 1000 times brighter than black in the same scene. Optimistically speaking it will reach 900:1 in reality.

So I guess this means that one I have the money, I should just buy myself a nice big Samsung 226BW and stop all this looking around...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dapthar
I know you must get tired of hearing this, but I just wanted to thank xtknight for putting all of this information out there, it's the best resource on the web for LCDs, bar none.

Well, this is good to hear. Although there are times when I am not always up on every small review of the latest models it is generally in your best interest that I don't race and add a monitor up that may have issues. I feel that I have this transitioned thread from being an information collator (the original thread purpose) to being a primary information source.

I've just got three questions:

1.) What's stopping the 25.5" Planar PX2611W from being included in the hardcore gaming category? Bad brightness, contrast ratio, etc.?

(I'd like to know because I'm guessing there's some glaring error that I'm missing, and I'm seriously considering this LCD for gaming.)

As far as I can tell there isn't a reason why it is not listed there. It has a reportedly low input lag (and I can believe that with an S-IPS panel). Plus, I have laxed the requirements for the bigger monitors simply because they never perform quite as well as the 19" speed demons. Thanks for catching this.

I also added it to the Office Work section since there is no compelling reason for its exclusion from there, either. S-IPS panels are nice for office work because they are less blinding than the VA panels (although VA panels can have less screen door effect and some scale very nicely w/ their brightness).

2.) Is there anything out there better than the Planar PX 2611W if I want an 8-bit, 1900 x 1200 panel with low response time?

The Dell 3007WFP is just as good but the 26" Planar, from the data I have, is tops for gaming. The 30"'s resolution is hard to drive.

3.) Is there a single card setup out there now that can drive a 1900 x 1200 LCD for FPS gaming, or do I need to depend on SLI/Crossfire to have any chance of getting a decent framerate?

I'd like to get a widescreen LCD, but since the games I play are primarily FPSs, I don't want to get an LCD looks pretty on the desktop, but that I can't play games on that are coming out in a few weeks (UT3, Crysis, etc.) at 60+ FPS with some eye candy turned on (not everything on high, but enough beyond medium settings so it looks nice).

I am pretty sure that many single graphics cards these days can do 1920x1200 just fine. This of course depends on the game and the settings so you will need to look at benchmarks for your games. I would be aiming for >= 60 FPS myself because of the need for VSync (and, all these big LCDs operate at 60 Hz).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: crowley
I want to get a 20.1" 1680x1050 like the NEC20WGX2 or the Dell 2007WFP, but I'm concerned about the small dot pitch (for web surfing and office programs).

Now I have a 17" LCD with 1280x1024 and the dot pitch is fine.

Is there a way to "simulate", in terms of font and menu sizes, the smaller dot pitch of the 20.1" screens on my 17" screen, so that I would be able to see what it would look like? Maybe change the windows DPI to the values listed here (in pixels per inch):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_pitch
or something similar?

Thanks.

Increasing DPI in the OS simply makes your fonts and dialog units bigger. What you are really increasing is DPI compensation, not the DPI itself. You must compensate for whatever DPI your monitor is. The higher DPI your monitor is, the higher the DPI compensation needed to display an inch of text.

When you set the OS to "72 dpi", that means it compensates for a monitor that has a resolution of 72 dpi. Likewise you set it to "96 dpi" for a 96 dpi monitor. But you are NOT increasing the physical DPI of the monitor, obviously.

These are just wild examples, but say your monitor is 100 dpi.

To make it show a 10 inch font you would need to draw 1000 dots.
To make it show a 5 inch font you need to draw 500.

On the other hand with a 50 dpi monitor you only need to draw half the number of dots to show the same size. (And, of course it ends up being less resolution this way.)

Technically, higher resolution is simulated by averaging adjacent pixels. This is called supersampling antialiasing. For text it's primarily known as "subpixel hinting" or "font smoothing" and is used in Windows' ClearType and available in Linux/Macs' font libraries.

These techniques are not really adjustable so I don't know how you'd tell it to do a '20.1" monitor on a 17" screen'. I guess you could try DPI adjustment here. You'll have to calculate the DPI of a 17" 1280x1024 screen and that of a 20.1" 1680x1050 (sorry, don't have time atm) and use that as a scale factor to come up with a lower DPI compensation for your 17".

It is generally not performed for general window or GDI drawing so you get extra "res" only on fonts.

Just so you don't get confused, "virtual resolution" is something else entirely. Virtual resolution expands your desktop real estate while maintaining the size of your viewport. For example, your true resolution is the same but you can translate the screen in different directions using your mouse, among a larger plane. It's basically like using binoculars: you've got to lower them to see other stuff.

If you want to simulate a 17" panel on a 20.1" one, yes, that is easier. You just need to the increase that DPI compensation, or "DPI" according to Windows.

I don't think .258 mm vs .264 mm will be a big difference so you may be better off not disturbing the default DPI value. Messing with DPI also messes with dialog units since those dialogs contain the fonts. And that can cause messy dialogs, a very well known issue with Windows XP and Vista especially.

 

[marrr]

Im shopping for a new monitor i aint sure if i should get a lcd or crt cause i like my screen size 800 x 600 and game at 800x 600 and i heard lcd would suck at that??

any truth to this

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mar23
Im shopping for a new monitor i aint sure if i should get a lcd or crt cause i like my screen size 800 x 600 and game at 800x 600 and i heard lcd would suck at that??

any truth to this

If you want to stick to 800x600, to be honest you should probably stick to CRTs. 1600x1200 on a 20" LCD is essentially the same thing, except double the area. The only way it would annoy you is if you had an graphics card that wasn't up to the task of suppyling 1600x1200 pixels in 3D.

 

[crowley]

Thanks for the answer!

 

[rxblitzrx]

@xtknight

can i use riva tuner on a thinkpad t61 laptop with integrated graphics and tn panel? is it even wise to try and tune a laptop lcd?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rxblitzrx
@xtknight

can i use riva tuner on a thinkpad t61 laptop with integrated graphics and tn panel? is it even wise to try and tune a laptop lcd?

Depends if RivaTuner supports your integrated graphics but there's no harm in giving it a shot. There is nothing wrong with tuning laptop LCDs.

 

[xtknight]

The review of the PX2611W here is less than optimistic. http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,2193635,00.asp

They say the color is no match for the Samsung 275T which I find striking. Apparently the OSD is horrible. They also noticed smearing in DVD scenes which I find even more shocking (this should only start happening about 25 ms or higher). I already knew uniformity was a bit of a problem. Usually ExtremeTech is very reliable so for now I am delisting PX2611W from anything until X-Bit has their say. ExtremeTech didn't provide any measurements of response time in any objective way, so I can't say for sure if response time is an issue with this monitor.

It makes me a little wary of recommending it but we do know it has a low input lag and an S-IPS (H-IPS?) panel. I highly doubt it's "bad" for gaming (probably no worse so than 226BW A/C panel which are good).

dapthar: you may want to consider the 275T too (world-class response time). But the 275T is likely to have up to 2 frames more input lag (S-PVA panel). The 245T's input lag is atrocious at 60 ms. In the end you are juggling trade-offs with the 26" and 27" monitors.

 

[GeneralOreo]

So does the 20WMGX2 have a successor yet? I need to upgrade and OLED monitors are still very far away.

 

[Mallomar]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Wow, yes, that is a lot of moolah.

But I suppose yes if that's the route you want to take, the 24" BenQ certainly isn't a bad idea. It's not wide gamut though so it really has no advantages specific to print-media processing. The 2407WFP-HC may actually be a better choice. Not only is it cheaper ([covering my butt:] at least in some countries) but it has a wider gamut.

BTW, is there a reason why Eizos are not listed? Is it because they are so expensive? (I hadn't really considered them because of the cost, but was curious to know hw they stack up against the NECs.)

The Eizos? Well, they just aren't as good as the NEC monitors, they're more expensive, and Eizo has been known for deceptive practices like hooking up competitors' monitor rigs to VGA to try and show the Eizos' superiority (over DVI). I'm not too fond of them.

A lot of the Eizos are using S-PVAs now which are inherently less quality for photo editing than the polarized S-IPS panels that the NEC 90 series use. How they compare to the Dell, well they would probably be better, but all you have to do is look at the price. An Eizo is no temp monitor, it's a huge, long-term investment, and usually a bad one at that. Of course, always be careful of blanket statements but the NEC 90 series are simply a better choice overall. They use only the best panels, have extremely tight calibration, and are priced only at what they are worth.

The Eizo S2411W is $1275 and the NEC LCD2490WUXi is $1150, and it goes without saying that you are getting less performance out of the Eizo since it uses a VA panel, which has more viewing angle issues. The S2411W isn't wide gamut either making it even less suitable.

Read Tamlin's posts here: http://www.hardforum.com/showt...d.php?t=1180814&page=4

The lower black level isn't that important. My L226WT had a lower black level but that doesn't mean much. My NEC 20WMGX2 with a higher black level still showed significantly more detail. Go by uniformity, gamma control/deltaE, and viewing angle stability when it comes to revealing detail. I know the NEC leads in uniformity and viewing angle stability, and I am pretty sure it does in deltaE measurements too.

At least for photo editing, once you use an S-IPS you will never go back. Those who can not notice the tone shift of an S-PVA have never used an S-IPS panel.

Thanks for the info and link about the Eizos. I'm pretty much set on getting a NEC. I'm just waiting to see what newegg's price will be on the SV models when they get them in. I'm a little sorry I didn't just go ahead and buy the non-SV 2690 last week -- right now I'm using my husband's crappy 19" LCD (Princeton? It was a cheapo from Costco.) with my new computer while I install software (I don't have room in my desk for a second CRT, and I'm still using the 21" Mitsubishi CRT with my old computer). And he's complaining that he wants his monitor back because for now he's using an old 17" Sony CRT and it's not working right -- sometimes the screen sort of fritzes out -- gets wavy at the sides. We can't figure out why.

And I decided it's a waste of money to buy a "temp" 24" monitor. Might as well wait another week and get a real one.

 

[sephra]

mainly @ x

Im pretty much torn between a 275t and a nec4960wuxi,

The 4690wuxi from what was said on the hardforums has had alot of issues. Which leads me with this problem... Do i spent 1100~ish on the 24 inch lcd that has some of its own issues. or do I go with the 275T, basically 3 inches bigger and 250~ish cheaper. With that in mind i Currently have a 191T, and the biggest problem i have is ghosting in CS:S, tft2 ghosting is hard to see(color related im sure, less black/white) As far as input lag is concerned I do not know what the 191T has. With that in mind, is it worth buying the nec vs the 275T.

ps i have no access to/nor intend on ever buying calibration hardware. (most calibration ill be doing is eyeballing it on a color scale ) with gameing/text work/minor video editing(fraps mainly) the extent of my use..


thx

 

[RobberBaron]

I am looking to migrate from my good old 22" CRT to an LCD. I have been looking at the 22" & > avenue. It would mostly be for gaming, either mmo's or fps. Anyway, I have read a few dozen reviews as well as a good many in this thread and I am still on the fence looking at stuff. The samsungs have stuck out, for example the 226BW and the 275T, but are they my best bet? I like to get the most for my dollar, not cheap, but I want something that is going to meet my need for performance for a good while.

 

[HermitGuy]

Hello AnandTechies,
I'm looking for info on the following monitor,STAPLES
I know this is probably a low end monitor but it has some decent options such as USB ports and a swivel base that I like, plus the price. The specs seem to match others in the same price range but I can't find any info on it, yes I have googled.
Does anyone have experience with this monitor or know who makes it for Staples, any help would be welcome thanks

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: RobberBaron
I am looking to migrate from my good old 22" CRT to an LCD. I have been looking at the 22" & > avenue. It would mostly be for gaming, either mmo's or fps. Anyway, I have read a few dozen reviews as well as a good many in this thread and I am still on the fence looking at stuff. The samsungs have stuck out, for example the 226BW and the 275T, but are they my best bet? I like to get the most for my dollar, not cheap, but I want something that is going to meet my need for performance for a good while.

The Samsung 275T may be one of your best bets, but then there is also the Planar PX2611W which likely has less input lag.

The 226BW however provides fast response time and low input lag together, but it is much smaller than the 25.5-27" screens. Considering it's about a quarter of the price, it may be your best value. But if you're willing to spend the extra the 275T will certainly provide you with a much better picture (as will the PX2611W). Between the 275T and PX2611W I can't honestly say which is better for gaming but I'd lean towards the PX2611W due to its S-IPS panel. Slightly higher response time w/ low input lag isn't bad for gaming.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: GeneralOreo
So does the 20WMGX2 have a successor yet? I need to upgrade and OLED monitors are still very far away.

Um, LCD2490WUXi or LCD2690WUXi? (Not glossy though.)

There's the Planar PX2611W although I'm starting to have doubts about its real quality. I tend to have a lot of unfounded doubts though.

The Samsung 275T seems to be the king of 23-28" monitors at the moment. I don't believe any manufacturer will release any more glossy VA/IPS panels.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: HermitGuy
Hello AnandTechies,
I'm looking for info on the following monitor,STAPLES
I know this is probably a low end monitor but it has some decent options such as USB ports and a swivel base that I like, plus the price. The specs seem to match others in the same price range but I can't find any info on it, yes I have googled.
Does anyone have experience with this monitor or know who makes it for Staples, any help would be welcome thanks

I don't know who makes the panel, but I know it is a TN 22" panel since no non-TN 22" panels are used. It is probably a Chi Mei variant (avg. cheaper 22" LCD).

With the 226BW available for cheaper though it is not particularly a good value. Although, the 226BW has no USB ports. It does have swivel and tilt.