[Retired] The LCD Thread

[Triplehammer]

I have ordered the two 20WMGX2 monitors for myself. I'm holding off on buying the wife's monitor because, first, I can't take advantage of the rebate on a third monitor so I'll probably wait until after Nov 3 to see if a new rebate takes effect, and second, I'm still considering whether another monitor might be better for her.

In my research I got interested in the Samsung 215tw, which is now available on newegg for $350 after a $100 mail-in rebate. Being 21" and thus having a better dotpitch, it seemed like a likely candidate, and quite a few reviews compared it to the 20WMGX2.

Further research uncovered the fact that the 215tw has the same panel as the Gateway FPD2185W. Yet more research on HardOCP finds that owners of the Gateway are starting to see them die noisily, and disassembly of the unit finds bulging capacitors with a known high failure rate. I have to wonder if the 215tw will suffer the same problems. Oh well, I guess I've come back around to the 20WMGX2 for her too.

But now I'm considering the LG L1970TR at Circuit City for $233. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Fadardo]

Hi Xknight thanks for all the great info,
From your advice I went and purchased a 20WMGX2, and for the most part I'm very pleased. The one thing that really dissappointed me was there is no 'maintain aspect ratio or pixel for pixel mode' for non-widescreen resolutions for PC input. Its there for the HD-DVI mode which goes to the same dvi cable. I wondering if there is any way or any program to fool the monitor into thinking its running in HD-DVI mode. Maybe sending the monitor a fake HDMI signal or whatever is needed that tells the monitor its hooked up to a high def dvd player?

All my 4:3 games like starcraft and C&C red altert 2 are unenjoyable when stretched. They can't be played windowed mode either as pressing the mouse to the edges of the screen is for navigating the map, but instead the mouse travels out of the gaming window.

Thanks, any input is appreciated.

 

[SrKneecap]

Greetings! Nice thread, tons of great info here!

I just now realized the potential of a HDTV as a monitor since my brother-in-law bought his 46" Sharp Aquos. I did a few levels of half-life2 at 1080p and I was sold on an HDTV. I'd like something in the range of 30-37 inch, to be used for GAMING and general surfing. Very little work (text, pictures) will be done on this PC.

Westinghouse LVM-37W3(SE) - Availability issue, brick and mortar stores don't seem to carry it any more and I'm afraid of a bad set from newegg (with no return policy)
Sharp LC-32GP1U (or LC-32D62U) - Same brand as my brother-in-law, but the price is a bit steep compared to the Westy

Do you have any suggestions in this range?

Thanks!

 

[s44]

For direct multimedia use, are there <24" monitors besides the old Gateway 22" that handle 16:9 -> 16:10 scaling (that is, letterboxing)? Does the new Gateway 22" still do this? The NEC 20"?

Anything less pricey than these?

 

[MDDI]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: MDDI
Is there any 24" - 26" "non" TN monitors on the market without "issues"?

Unfortunately, not really. In fact most monitors have "issues".

I had narrowed my choices down to the BenQ FP241W and the LG L245/246WP until the recent X-Bit Lab review came out and drove a stake thorugh the LG's heart.

I was about to pull the trigger on the BenQ FP241W, but there seems to be an issue about the monitor "Blacking" out. You can Google "BenQ FP241W Blacking Out" and pages come up, even YouTube videos. This issue seems to happen with the "W", "WZ" and "VW" models.

This "Blackout" does seem to be real and no good information as to whether it is old, new, any real fix or any action by BenQ.

NewEgg Customer Reviews, a few posts down:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824014124

NCIX Customer Forum "Blackout Issue":
http://forum.ncixus.com/forums...erclockid=0#msg1435157

My question! Do any of you have the BenQ FP241 W, WZ, VW? What is the real deal with the Blackout thing?

Well it appears someone may have a fix for it:
http://www.hardforum.com/showp...0759439&postcount=3154

Can't confirm it either way. I hope BenQ does something about it soon.

Thanks xtknight, I'm not sure about the fix, some claim it worked, others claim not. I'm not going to wait any longer to make my 24" purchase. Sounds like the manufactures trend for the next generation 24" monitors will mostly be TN.

I've decided to buy the BenQ FP241W from NCIX. They seem to move more stock than most so the production date of their inventory appears to be June or later. The 1:1 image mapping is corrected and possibly the black-out thing was earlier BenQ production, I'll cross my fingers.

 

[SuperdaveTX]

Anyone? Bueler??

Well, I took another hard look at the monitor, adjusting angles, creating solid color images and viewing that. I think my panel is fine. I believe the issue is the limited viewing angle and if I look down at the monitor, it views differently. I do have it set for a bright room since it gets lots of direct sun during the day. At night, however, it doesn't need to be so bright.

Where do I find calibration files for the different samsung panels? I read that the non "S" panels look as good as "S" after loading these files.... Any links were I can find out more about this?

TIA

 

[nwrigley]

I need some advice on selecting a monitor. I have read over this guide, these forums, and the internet for advice before posting. I think this resource and the advice of xtknight is the best around, in fact I used it when I bought my Samsung 215tw 21" widescreen a year ago for myself (got a great clearance deal from Office Depot, less the $300 total) and I couldn't be happier with it.

Now on to my question: I recently got a new computer for work from Dell, of which I was given some freedom to choose the components. I had previously been working on a 19" Sony Trinitron CRT that was showing its age and was only comfortable working on at 1152 x 864 ? any higher and the text started getting blurry. I was looking to upgrade to a LCD panel with quality being more important to me than size.

The base included monitor with the Dell was the E198FP 19" analog LCD. I wanted a digital panel and knew that their UltraSharp line had a good reputation, so I selected the 20" full frame 2007FP, which was $150 extra. I would have preferred a widescreen monitor, but for some reason the 2007WFP is $100 over the 2007FP. Now, when I chose this monitor I was concerned about the pixel pitch being too small and sure enough ? it is (0.255mm).

My 215tw that I use at home is what I would call the "sweet spot" for me with pixel pitch (0.270mm), I remember when I first bought it that I was glad I opted for a 21" ws panel instead of 20" ws because I wouldn't want the text to be any smaller. Now, we also have a 17" LCD at work (0.264mm) that doesn't bother me, so I was hoping the 2007FP would be ok. I have given the monitor a few days for my eyes to adjust, increased the dpi, but I don't think it's going to work out. We use Windows XP and as is often discussed, the dpi scaling just isn't very good. I'm typing this in Word and while the text is fine, the menu icons are a blurry mess.

I work in publishing and use Photoshop, Indesign, website design, and Office ? my main needs are easy to read text and color accuracy. The monitor will never be used for video, games, etc ? only still images and scrolling. The 2007FP is excellent for Photoshop and Indesign, which makes it hard to let go. However, the reality is that a large portion of my time is spent typing letters and reading e-mails in Outlook and if I get a headache doing these things it doesn't really matter how well the monitor performs in other applications. Also, I feel like the monitor is actually too tall to view comfortably, but this is probably because I have to sit closer to it. Everything seems much larger on my 215tw, even though I use the standard 96dpi on it, perhaps it's because I'm running Vista at home?

One option is to send this monitor back in exchange for the 19" 1908FP, which is $80 less. I haven't read the best things about this monitor and someone said that it uses a 6-bit panel ? can anyone confirm this? Another option would be to take the base analog E198FP and apply the $150 towards a different monitor altogether. There are some advantages to this approach, as my assistant is currently working on the 17" analog LCD and I could give her the larger free screen.

I do have some flexibility on how much I spend on the monitor for myself, but I'm spending someone else's money and I need to be able to justify that the extra money was well spent. Large screens are nice, but I do feel that you can get a screen that is too large (blasphemy, I know). I think a 19", a 21" ws, or 22" ws would be good. I would also be interested in a 20" with a 1400x1050 native resolution. I'm not ruling out 6-bit panels, but obviously 8-bit is preferable. From the recommended list I looked at the Samsung 971P, but that seems to be running about $400, the Viewsonic VP930b ($320), but these are more expensive than I would like. How much better are these over the 1908FP? Everything else listed is way out of my price range - I would prefer something less than $300. Please help with some specific recommendations!

 

[ashvarts]

wow, what a great thread. Thank you everyone, especialy xtknight, for the wealth of information.

I had a question about the lottery, specificaly regarding the Dell 2007WFP. I saw that it was removed from the recommendations because people are getting PVA screens. However, according to X-Bit Labs, you are more likely to get the S-IPS screen. So my question: is it truely a lottery, or is it more likely that Dell is running out of S-IPS screens and now I'm more likely to get the PVA screen? Do they continue to manufacture both? Because if that's the case, I wouldn't mind returning the monitor until I got the S-IPS one.

I need a display for photo work mostly, so I've narrowed it down to the Dell and the NEC, but X-bit gave Dell better reviews as far as color reproduction.

Thanks
[art]

 

[amylake]

I've been reading a lot of stuff about monitors the last few days and this thread has been the most helpful (and overwhelming) information I've come across.

I have a dual monitor set up with one monitor being my laptop. I want to get a widescreen monitor so there's some room to breathe. The primary use will be web design, photoshop, etc. so color accuracy is a high priority. I don't do any gaming so that's not an issue.

The NEC 20WMGX2 seems like the right choice and is at a great price at Newegg through Saturday. I have one main concern which is text size. I will be using it for non-design work like Word, Excel, and web surfing. My eyes are almost 47 years old.

I was noticing one of the posts before mine where the poster said the 2007WFP was just to small for text work.

I was able to look at one of those Sony all-in-one desktops. The monitor was a 19" with a 1680 x 1050 resolution. I'm assuming text would be larger on a 20.1" monitor with the same resolution.

I confess, I have not read the entire 78 pages of this thread but I've noticed things like "dot pitch", etc. that determine text size. I think this is something I have to see for myself. I called the nearest mall with a Dell kiosk to see if they had a 2007WFP on display, since it's the same size and resolution, and they do have one. Will looking at that monitor be the same as the NEC in terms of text size? And/Or is there a way I can adjust the text on my monitor to simulate what text would look like on the NEC?

I have read a lot of this thread but if it's not too much to ask, what would be the best option in a 22" widescreen with color accuracy being the primary concern (in case a 20" just won't work). A 24" monitor is not really an option because of space constraints.

Thanks for this fantastic thread.

edit: just reading above again. I really like the sound of the NEC but maybe the Samsung 215tw would be a better choice.

Edit 2: I'm now leaning towards the Samsung. One other question. I only have an analog connection from my laptop, a thinkpad T60. Will this affect image quality for image editing, web design or text?

 

[dajeepster]

so... what's everyones views on 28"?
more specifically these: the Viewsonic VX2835wm or HannsG HG281DPB

 

[nwrigley]

Originally posted by: amylake
I confess, I have not read the entire 78 pages of this thread but I've noticed things like "dot pitch", etc. that determine text size. I think this is something I have to see for myself. I called the nearest mall with a Dell kiosk to see if they had a 2007WFP on display, since it's the same size and resolution, and they do have one. Will looking at that monitor be the same as the NEC in terms of text size? And/Or is there a way I can adjust the text on my monitor to simulate what text would look like on the NEC?

There is an excellent explanation of pixel pitch at the beginning of this article (dot pitch is the equivalent for a CRT monitor). Any monitor of the same size with the same native resolution will have the same pixel pitch. Pixels are fixed in size, which is why LCDs only look their best in their native resolution. So, yes, I would recommend that you view a monitor in store of the same size and resolution of the one you are considering.

Here is a useful list of common pixel pitches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_pitch

The difference between 0.255mm and 0.270mm may not sounds like a lot, but it is a big difference to my eyes.

 

[amylake]

Originally posted by: nwrigley

There is an excellent explanation of pixel pitch at the beginning of this article (dot pitch is the equivalent for a CRT monitor). Any monitor of the same size with the same native resolution will have the same pixel pitch. Pixels are fixed in size, which is why LCDs only look their best in their native resolution. So, yes, I would recommend that you view a monitor in store of the same size and resolution of the one you are considering.

Here is a useful list of common pixel pitches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_pitch

The difference between 0.255mm and 0.270mm may not sounds like a lot, but it is a big difference to my eyes.

Both of those resources are helpful. I will go check out the Dell tommorrow. In the meantime I'm wondering if comparing two different screen sizes with similar pixel pitch is apples to apples or apples to oranges.

My Thinkpad is a 15.4 widescreen with a 1280 x 800 resolution. The pixel pitch according to the Wikipedia article is 0.259 with 98 pixels per inch.

The NEC has a pixel pitch of 0.258 and 98.4 pixels per inch.
The Samsung has a pixel pitch of 0.269 and 94.4 pixels per inch.

So, I'm wondering, can I asssume the NEC will look similar to the Thinkpad since they have almost the same numbers?

 

[nwrigley]

Originally posted by: nwrigley
I need some advice on selecting a monitor. I have read over this guide, these forums, and the internet for advice before posting...

I should add that the system is a Vostro 200 mini-tower, so you can see what options they have. I could really use some advice. This wouldn't be as hard if I were buying for myself, but I have to be really price conscious here.

The E228WFP is also an option for $60 less. In the Vostro configuration is says that this is an "analog" display, so I ignored it at first. Open further research, I see that it does indeed have a DVI input. Why does they call it an "analog" display?

Dell also sells the 226BW and while they don't list it as an option for this system, I could try asking about exchanging for one anyway.

I've really tried adjusting settings in XP to give the 2007fp a shot, but I don't think it's my best option. I don't want anything less than a 0.270mm pixel pitch and larger is better. I have less control over lighting at work, so I'm even more susceptible to being bothered by smaller fonts than at home.

 

[xtknight]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

The Samsung 215TW is back in stock at Newegg and it's a very viable alternative to the NEC 20WMGX2 for many people. This is important stuff, people!

To reiterate (at least, for those of you who know exactly what you want):

NEC 20WMGX2
- guaranteed LG.Philips AS-IPS panel (true 8-bit)
- better for gaming (low input lag+fast response time)
- glossy screen more prone to reflection, but delivers crystal clear image
- great color accuracy
- no scaling options in PC DVI mode
- smaller dot pitch, good for pictures
- will display pictures with lower gamma shift (2-domain IPS)
- a little more banding even in standard mode
! IPS displays can not display gradients as smooth as VAs because IPS lack the # of domains to do so. With VA displays, each domain can gradually show a bit of the color so that you get a smooth gradient. The combined value of each domain's color value produces the desired color. Banding will be more of a problem with grayscales since the error of gray will be equal to the error of red, green, and blue combined.
- prone to some image retention (IPS)
- no portrait mode

Samsung 215TW
- lower black levels/higher contrast (guaranteed Samsung S-PVA panel, true 8-bit)
- better at displaying dark tones
- anti-glare, matte screens with less reflections but also a tad less clarity. Partially offset by the high contrast though.
- up to a few frames of input lag, unsuitable for gaming for sensitive individuals.
- great color accuracy
- scaling options in PC DVI mode
- larger dot pitch, easier to see fonts
- may not display dark tones in center plane/color shift (8-domain VA)
- portrait mode possible

For photo editing it is a bit of a toss-up (depends on your photos?) but I have to say the NEC has some trouble displaying dark tones by default so the 215TW is not a bad choice. But with a calibrator the NEC could be better. If your targets are mainly matte/plain though you may prefer the 215TW. The NEC has remarkably stable viewing angles though whereas the 215TW is a bit shifty esp. with dark tones. Neither display is suited to print-targeting as much as a wide gamut LCD.

I have seen the 215TW only briefly in real life and all I can say is that it has good contrast. It has a great black level as tested by flatpanels.dk.

I believe my view on the 20WMGX2 is clear as day to most people here but I love it except for the minor burn-in problems. The power button gets stuck a little too but when you see the beautiful image this LCD can reproduce, you honestly stop caring.

Originally posted by: Fadardo
Hi Xknight thanks for all the great info,
From your advice I went and purchased a 20WMGX2, and for the most part I'm very pleased. The one thing that really dissappointed me was there is no 'maintain aspect ratio or pixel for pixel mode' for non-widescreen resolutions for PC input. Its there for the HD-DVI mode which goes to the same dvi cable. I wondering if there is any way or any program to fool the monitor into thinking its running in HD-DVI mode. Maybe sending the monitor a fake HDMI signal or whatever is needed that tells the monitor its hooked up to a high def dvd player?

All my 4:3 games like starcraft and C&C red altert 2 are unenjoyable when stretched. They can't be played windowed mode either as pressing the mouse to the edges of the screen is for navigating the map, but instead the mouse travels out of the gaming window.

Thanks, any input is appreciated.

Can you not use scaling through the graphics card (for NVIDIA, Intel, some ATI)? Not sure how to fake it into thinking it's DVI-HD mode (I don't even know what the difference is). It's preferable to use a hack for those games if one is available. Check Wide Screen Gaming Forum's game list.

Originally posted by: SrKneecap
Greetings! Nice thread, tons of great info here!

I just now realized the potential of a HDTV as a monitor since my brother-in-law bought his 46" Sharp Aquos. I did a few levels of half-life2 at 1080p and I was sold on an HDTV. I'd like something in the range of 30-37 inch, to be used for GAMING and general surfing. Very little work (text, pictures) will be done on this PC.

Westinghouse LVM-37W3(SE) - Availability issue, brick and mortar stores don't seem to carry it any more and I'm afraid of a bad set from newegg (with no return policy)
Sharp LC-32GP1U (or LC-32D62U) - Same brand as my brother-in-law, but the price is a bit steep compared to the Westy

Do you have any suggestions in this range?

Thanks!

Well to be perfectly honest with you I can not keep up on LCD TVs these days which is the reason for the slow or rare updates of the HTPC section. I was planning to add up the Sharp 32" as it seems like a decent choice. All I really have to do is add an entry for it but I would like to research it more to find solutions to the dynamic contrast issue of it before committing to this addition. And, not to mention, I would like to see if there are better choices in this range although at this point that seems not to be the case. The Sharp 32" is probably a great choice even if it's not the best as it had been recommended to me a few posts back and my general impression from reading online about it was good. I still don't know what panel it uses though, and this is stuff I like to find out before adding a monitor, too. I doubt that it's a TN.

Have you looked at the Sceptre 37"? The Westinghouse's availability is indeed waning.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: munky
Thanks to the helpful advice from this thread, I just got a samsung 275t, and it's amazing! I've been a "CRT until hell freezes over" guy for years, but this panel has very minimal ghosting, and the colors are unbelievable for a LCD. Anyways, I'm looking for some suggestions on calibrating it, and if anyone has a recomended settings profile. So far I turned down the red saturation a bit because it felt over emphasized. Anyone else using this monitor here?

Congrats on choosing among the best LCDs today. Of course, I wouldn't let anything else happen.

Originally posted by: Triplehammer
I have ordered the two 20WMGX2 monitors for myself. I'm holding off on buying the wife's monitor because, first, I can't take advantage of the rebate on a third monitor so I'll probably wait until after Nov 3 to see if a new rebate takes effect, and second, I'm still considering whether another monitor might be better for her.

In my research I got interested in the Samsung 215tw, which is now available on newegg for $350 after a $100 mail-in rebate. Being 21" and thus having a better dotpitch, it seemed like a likely candidate, and quite a few reviews compared it to the 20WMGX2.

Further research uncovered the fact that the 215tw has the same panel as the Gateway FPD2185W. Yet more research on HardOCP finds that owners of the Gateway are starting to see them die noisily, and disassembly of the unit finds bulging capacitors with a known high failure rate. I have to wonder if the 215tw will suffer the same problems. Oh well, I guess I've come back around to the 20WMGX2 for her too.

But now I'm considering the LG L1970TR at Circuit City for $233. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks for letting me know of the 215TW's availability (it has been in and out).

I doubt the 215TW has the same death problems. In any case you never know until you get one but I know I haven't seen any reports of 215TWs dying. The Gateway's color settings aren't as good anyway though. Give the 215TW a shot.

Originally posted by: ChaoZ
Do new monitors look better? I have a really old Dell one: http://support.dell.com/suppor...s/E171FPB/En/intro.htm

I've never actually experienced different monitors before so I can't really compare quality.

New monitors aren't always better (especially if they use TNs when VAs were used previously, for example).

Anyway, that looks like an old TN to me so any newer monitor will probably suit you well, especially a bigger-sized one. When you go up in size you generally get better quality displays.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: s44
For direct multimedia use, are there <24" monitors besides the old Gateway 22" that handle 16:9 -> 16:10 scaling (that is, letterboxing)? Does the new Gateway 22" still do this? The NEC 20"?

Anything less pricey than these?

The Samsung 215TW does what you want, I believe. Can your graphics card not do this (some ATIs?)

Check 215TW user manual here: http://www.samsung.com/us/supp...mType=&dType=D&vType=R

There is a 4:3 mode but I don't know that this accomplishes what you want. Consider hacks or graphics card scaling if viable.

To be honest with you I am simply not sure of any other options but there could very well be some others. But considering not a whole ton of <24" LCDs have scaling options I have my doubts. Check out monitors from OEMs like Dell, HP, Gateway (they tend to have more scaling options than other manufacturers for some reason).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: SuperdaveTX
After reading posts here and going to several stores, I purchased a Samsung 226BW. I am wondering if I got a bad one since I noticed that some colors at the bottom middleof the panel are lighter or slightly washed out compared to the colors above. This color variance goes about about an inch or 2 from the bottom edge of the panel. I am using the VGA input since my video card will not handle native resolution on the DVI out.

One other thing I noticed, but I think is normal?? If I go to the web and get on my yahoo with lots of articles. If I drag the window up and down, I get a pinkish hue from the text colors on the page... My page has a white background. If no movement, all is normal. Video from saved MPEGs are fine also.

I have to conclude you may have an A or C panel and are also sensitive to these issues. Maybe you want to consider the NEC 20WMGX2 or Samsung 215TW instead? It would be better in the long run for you. Those issues aren't all that uncommon for TNs as a matter of fact.

Try turning off (or on) ClearType. It may help the pink text problem. Either value may make the issue better for you (OFF may make it better if the antialiasing is causing more ghosting, or ON may make it better if the black text is causing the ghosting).

I doubt it's the VGA input that is the problem but definitely get a DVI card someday.

Originally posted by: SuperdaveTX
Anyone? Bueler??

Well, I took another hard look at the monitor, adjusting angles, creating solid color images and viewing that. I think my panel is fine. I believe the issue is the limited viewing angle and if I look down at the monitor, it views differently. I do have it set for a bright room since it gets lots of direct sun during the day. At night, however, it doesn't need to be so bright.

Where do I find calibration files for the different samsung panels? I read that the non "S" panels look as good as "S" after loading these files.... Any links were I can find out more about this?

TIA

Consider my earlier comments about TN displays and their inherent lower quality. Nevertheless maybe you just need to get used to it. All displays have problems anyway, nobody is going to argue that and I think TNs are fine for most people. Those are just options you can pursue if you would like to step up or if these issues are an impediment to your daily routine.

Andrew Swihart (thanks btw) has a great guide on obtaining and applying the profiles.

Here: http://www.andrewswihart.net/b...sung-226bw-lcd-c-panel

Behardware recently published an in-depth comparison of the "S" and "A" panels, along with a color profile for the "A" panel that improves its colors to being as good as the "S" panel. After reading this, I was ready to buy the monitor, even if I got an "A" version, knowing I could use the ICC profile they provided if that was the case.

He also talks about profiles for the other panels ("A") ^^^

IMO, just use A then C, decide which one looks better, and stick with it. These may help alleviate your pink hue problem but only because of a chance, not because they specifically tune something to help this. That's an internal response time problem (the overdrive chip is not tuned properly in hardware). Only certain color tones are affected however and maybe the profile will help you dodge the bad ones, or maybe the profiler (the one who made the profile) even made special efforts to develop a profile to avoid these issues ( count your chickens )

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: nwrigley
I need some advice on selecting a monitor. I have read over this guide, these forums, and the internet for advice before posting. I think this resource and the advice of xtknight is the best around, in fact I used it when I bought my Samsung 215tw 21" widescreen a year ago for myself (got a great clearance deal from Office Depot, less the $300 total) and I couldn't be happier with it.

Sorry I haven't had time to answer questions as much lately. Actually if it weren't for my lack of laziness today (trust me, it affects everything) it probably would have been a little longer.

Now on to my question: I recently got a new computer for work from Dell, of which I was given some freedom to choose the components. I had previously been working on a 19" Sony Trinitron CRT that was showing its age and was only comfortable working on at 1152 x 864 ? any higher and the text started getting blurry. I was looking to upgrade to a LCD panel with quality being more important to me than size.

The base included monitor with the Dell was the E198FP 19" analog LCD.

My condolences.

I wanted a digital panel and knew that their UltraSharp line had a good reputation, so I selected the 20" full frame 2007FP, which was $150 extra. I would have preferred a widescreen monitor, but for some reason the 2007WFP is $100 over the 2007FP. Now, when I chose this monitor I was concerned about the pixel pitch being too small and sure enough ? it is (0.255mm).

My mom uses the 2007FP (hers is an S-IPS) for text work and she loves it. She is using a lower resolution though and over analog as far as I remember. She used to have a ViewSonic 19" or 21" CRT (shadow mask, I think?)

My 215tw that I use at home is what I would call the "sweet spot" for me with pixel pitch (0.270mm), I remember when I first bought it that I was glad I opted for a 21" ws panel instead of 20" ws because I wouldn't want the text to be any smaller. Now, we also have a 17" LCD at work (0.264mm) that doesn't bother me, so I was hoping the 2007FP would be ok. I have given the monitor a few days for my eyes to adjust, increased the dpi, but I don't think it's going to work out. We use Windows XP and as is often discussed, the dpi scaling just isn't very good. I'm typing this in Word and while the text is fine, the menu icons are a blurry mess.

I work in publishing and use Photoshop, Indesign, website design, and Office ? my main needs are easy to read text and color accuracy. The monitor will never be used for video, games, etc ? only still images and scrolling. The 2007FP is excellent for Photoshop and Indesign, which makes it hard to let go. However, the reality is that a large portion of my time is spent typing letters and reading e-mails in Outlook and if I get a headache doing these things it doesn't really matter how well the monitor performs in other applications. Also, I feel like the monitor is actually too tall to view comfortably, but this is probably because I have to sit closer to it. Everything seems much larger on my 215tw, even though I use the standard 96dpi on it, perhaps it's because I'm running Vista at home?

Hmm that's a little surprising to me. It could be Vista, or because Vista has better font antialiasing (better ClearType than XP) when you enable it.

One option is to send this monitor back in exchange for the 19" 1908FP, which is $80 less. I haven't read the best things about this monitor and someone said that it uses a 6-bit panel ? can anyone confirm this? Another option would be to take the base analog E198FP and apply the $150 towards a different monitor altogether. There are some advantages to this approach, as my assistant is currently working on the 17" analog LCD and I could give her the larger free screen.

Yes, it's a 6-bit TN LCD without overdrive. Do you mean to say you would be looking for another $150 LCD (how are you going to get the Dell E198FP for free?)

I do have some flexibility on how much I spend on the monitor for myself, but I'm spending someone else's money and I need to be able to justify that the extra money was well spent. Large screens are nice, but I do feel that you can get a screen that is too large (blasphemy, I know). I think a 19", a 21" ws, or 22" ws would be good. I would also be interested in a 20" with a 1400x1050 native resolution. I'm not ruling out 6-bit panels, but obviously 8-bit is preferable. From the recommended list I looked at the Samsung 971P, but that seems to be running about $400, the Viewsonic VP930b ($320), but these are more expensive than I would like. How much better are these over the 1908FP? Everything else listed is way out of my price range - I would prefer something less than $300. Please help with some specific recommendations!

Maybe you should consider the Samsung 226BW? It's more economical and yes it's a TN but I think it would be great for text work, as is the LG L226WT. Both have good contrast and they are even bigger than your 215TW. I mean, honestly the 215TW would be a great choice for you at $350 AR at Newegg. I don't know if that's feasible for your department now or not?

At least if you have a 6-bit panel at Work you can always come home to your heavenly 8-bit 215TW. At the same time you (rather, your employers) will avoid spending money for those extra viewing angles that don't help a whole lot for text work.

I can tell you that I would use my dad's TN LG L226WT any day over my P-MVA ViewSonic VP930b for essentially everything. I have used both for text work and I prefer the L226WT considerably (new models L226WTQ/L226WTY). Size matters.

I guess the E228WFP isn't a bad choice, but I would much rather you have the Samsung 226BW or LG L226WT/L226WTQ/L226WTY for quality reasons. The Dell E series are simply lower quality and they have been known for bad inverters (among bad uniformity, poorer color accuracy). You are simply more likely to have issues with them.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ashvarts
wow, what a great thread. Thank you everyone, especialy xtknight, for the wealth of information.

I had a question about the lottery, specificaly regarding the Dell 2007WFP. I saw that it was removed from the recommendations because people are getting PVA screens. However, according to X-Bit Labs, you are more likely to get the S-IPS screen. So my question: is it truely a lottery, or is it more likely that Dell is running out of S-IPS screens and now I'm more likely to get the PVA screen? Do they continue to manufacture both? Because if that's the case, I wouldn't mind returning the monitor until I got the S-IPS one.

Last time I checked Dell was still putting tons of VAs in the 2007WFP with IPS ones being more rare, but the last time I checked was ages ago. I really can't keep up on this stuff. HardForum is the best place for info on what is happening here and now with the Dell panel lotteries. Clearly, it is still proceeding as usual (IPS/VA).

Whatever the case I would never buy a lottery monitor unless you know you are fine with the VA panel. It's just a bad idea.

I need a display for photo work mostly, so I've narrowed it down to the Dell and the NEC, but X-bit gave Dell better reviews as far as color reproduction.

Thanks
[art]

X-Bit may have had a flawed review unit for the NEC 20WMGX2 (their black level reading is terrible). I can assure you the NEC 20WMGX2 is just as good or better for editing photos, unless the glossy screen is an impediment. I doubt that this is the case, and I believe your money is certainly better spent on the NEC 20WMGX2 which is cheaper than the 2007WFP at this time after rebates. Just remember to use the 20WMGX2 responsibly (that is, use Native, Standard DV mode, and Advanced DVM=off for color accuracy).

I hope this answers your questions but if not let me know.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: amylake
I've been reading a lot of stuff about monitors the last few days and this thread has been the most helpful (and overwhelming) information I've come across.

I have a dual monitor set up with one monitor being my laptop. I want to get a widescreen monitor so there's some room to breathe. The primary use will be web design, photoshop, etc. so color accuracy is a high priority. I don't do any gaming so that's not an issue.

The NEC 20WMGX2 seems like the right choice and is at a great price at Newegg through Saturday. I have one main concern which is text size. I will be using it for non-design work like Word, Excel, and web surfing. My eyes are almost 47 years old.

I was noticing one of the posts before mine where the poster said the 2007WFP was just to small for text work.

I was able to look at one of those Sony all-in-one desktops. The monitor was a 19" with a 1680 x 1050 resolution. I'm assuming text would be larger on a 20.1" monitor with the same resolution.

I confess, I have not read the entire 78 pages of this thread but I've noticed things like "dot pitch", etc. that determine text size. I think this is something I have to see for myself. I called the nearest mall with a Dell kiosk to see if they had a 2007WFP on display, since it's the same size and resolution, and they do have one. Will looking at that monitor be the same as the NEC in terms of text size? And/Or is there a way I can adjust the text on my monitor to simulate what text would look like on the NEC?

The NEC 20WMGX2 will have the exact, precise same text size as the 2007WFP and this is a guarantee. There's not much of a reliable way to simulate DPI but I talked about something like this a few pages back here. I don't think you're missing much, simulating DPI is not a reliable way to choose a monitor.

I have read a lot of this thread but if it's not too much to ask, what would be the best option in a 22" widescreen with color accuracy being the primary concern (in case a 20" just won't work). A 24" monitor is not really an option because of space constraints.

Thanks for this fantastic thread.

edit: just reading above again. I really like the sound of the NEC but maybe the Samsung 215tw would be a better choice.

Edit 2: I'm now leaning towards the Samsung. One other question. I only have an analog connection from my laptop, a thinkpad T60. Will this affect image quality for image editing, web design or text?

Analog can do anything from severely impede image quality to not affect it at all. It depends totally on the quality of your laptop's VGA output. The VGA input of most LCDs is stellar. I already know that the 20WMGX2 performs great with a powerful VGA source (GeForce 7800GT).

I don't like the way my laptop drives the NEC though I haven't messed with it a whole ton. It is analog only, too. (... I really wish they would put DVI on more laptops.)

I am not sure how you are going to evaluate your laptop's VGA output but I would make sure the graphics adapter can support 1680x1050 resolution.

I can't see anything wrong with the NEC 20WMGX2 or Samsung 215TW for your purposes but maybe the 215TW is better for text work because of higher [real] contrast and bigger size. And, it's good for color accuracy too.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dajeepster
so... what's everyones views on 28"?
more specifically these: the Viewsonic VX2835wm or HannsG HG281DPB

These are 28" TN panels (with low quality panels). I'm not all that fond of them. As a general rule avoid these and check out higher quality 24-30" VA/IPS displays instead. You will thank yourself (and maybe even your wallet if you can find good deals).

In hindsight, maybe they aren't horrible choices. I haven't used them, so I really wouldn't know. But my gut impression is that you may be happier with a 24-30" VA/IPS-based display. All you can do is see if they are on display at some nearby store to truly evaluate them for yourself.

My first thoughts w/ the 28" TNs would be: poor screen uniformity, bad response time control, and many viewing angle problems. Particularly with brands like ViewSonic and Hanns.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: amylake

Originally posted by: nwrigley

There is an excellent explanation of pixel pitch at the beginning of this article (dot pitch is the equivalent for a CRT monitor). Any monitor of the same size with the same native resolution will have the same pixel pitch. Pixels are fixed in size, which is why LCDs only look their best in their native resolution. So, yes, I would recommend that you view a monitor in store of the same size and resolution of the one you are considering.

Here is a useful list of common pixel pitches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_pitch

The difference between 0.255mm and 0.270mm may not sounds like a lot, but it is a big difference to my eyes.

Both of those resources are helpful. I will go check out the Dell tommorrow. In the meantime I'm wondering if comparing two different screen sizes with similar pixel pitch is apples to apples or apples to oranges.

My Thinkpad is a 15.4 widescreen with a 1280 x 800 resolution. The pixel pitch according to the Wikipedia article is 0.259 with 98 pixels per inch.

The NEC has a pixel pitch of 0.258 and 98.4 pixels per inch.
The Samsung has a pixel pitch of 0.269 and 94.4 pixels per inch.

So, I'm wondering, can I asssume the NEC will look similar to the Thinkpad since they have almost the same numbers?

I don't have time to confirm those numbers right now but yes, monitors with same DPI will have the same text size. The higher res will simply give you more area but the text size will be identical.

 

[Butterbean]

Originally posted by: Butterbean

Originally posted by: Butterbean

Originally posted by: Butterbean
Just for giggles I made a quick vid of issues using still cameras video function (Canon S3). You can see the backbleed and how sensitive to pressure it is on left. At end you can see stuck pixel. The monitor was at 50% brightness/contrast using Eizo tests blackout function.
The NEC's are great and my first one was perfect in every way. This one is a real stinker for backbleed (equal to any Dell I had) but I consider it just part of the random poo so much a part of trying to score a good monitor.

Vid
http://video.google.com/videop...id=2158141964693972540

I'm not pushing as hard as it looks in vid.

NEC sent me a second new monitor. The new one also had intense areas of backbleeding but it stabilised over a couple days(the first one didn't). I don't have any "stuck pixels" this time either but I do have some sort of mark in lower right corner. I'm guessing its a patch of dead pixels. I don't mine dead pixels scattered around but this mark shows up a enough so that its obstrusive if not critical to anything. Is this mark a dead pixel patch? Any idead how many it takes to make a mark that size?

here is pic of lower right corner:
http://img159.imageshack.us/my...image=img2291ersv6.jpg

I got my 3rd monitor from NEC. It has no stuck pixels or weird artifacts but it does have the infamous "image persistence" issue. Using monitor for just a couple minutes at 22% brightness will leave an image. I could use my first NEC on all day and get nothing. I notice that the NEC with issues gets hotter on top (on the panel itself) than my good one. I've heard of this problem going away after a week or so so I'll wait a few days to see what's what. NEC has been pretty good but three monitors with "issues" in a month makes me wonder if its not just a rubbish lot they have left over. Here is pic of image ghost:


http://img524.imageshack.us/im...078/mwsnap0014elq9.jpg

I got my fourth replacement NEC 20WMGX2 this week. This last one finally has no issues - no weird backlight, ferocious stuck pixels, screen defects or image persistance (I don't even check for dead pixels). The interesting thing is NEC sent me a silver model instead of the black I originally bought. Looks wise, I actually like the silver one better - now seeing each model next to each other. When making the exchange I did say to the NEC rep that I wouldn't care if I got a silver version if they were out of the black - or if it would get me away from the problems all the black ones I received had. I know the NEC is a good monitor (having had one already almost a year) and all of the 6 people I spoke to at NEC said they hardly get any returns of the 20WMGX2. They did agree with my issues though and never gave me a hard time. They never had me speak to a tech rep until return number 3. He said since I had a different problem each time he didn't think it was me causing any problem and he agreed the image persistance and blotches across the top sounded defective. NEC sent me a new monitor 3 times and paid shipping each way Federal Express. I think perhaps something was wrong with one of the last batches of the black NEC's because each one I had was a mess with multiple issues. The black ones seem to be gone anyway.

Most of the time I called NEC and spoke with one person - the only exception being the final time when I had brief chat with rep. I wasn't switched aroud in endles loops like my Dell (25 calls over 2 months after that panel lottery fiasco). Each time I spoke with someone I heard chit chat in the back like I was speaking to someone in a small office that wan't that busy. When they said they sent me shipping labels I could see them before I even got off the phone. So after 4 monitors NEC's service was excellent I would say.

 

[Darknite39]

Darn.

I came home today to see my ~2 month old 24" Soyo with a solid black line running across it. I assume this to be a row of dead pixels or something. I have never dealt with Soyo customer service before; do you think I should try Office Max, the store from which my LCD was purchased, first? Alternatively, does anyone know how I might go about fixing this?

Sigh.

 

[nwrigley]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Yes, it's a 6-bit TN LCD without overdrive. Do you mean to say you would be looking for another $150 LCD (how are you going to get the Dell E198FP for free?)

Sorry that I wasn't clear on this. The Dell system I bought came with the E198FP as a base option - there isn't a "no monitor" option. The only option is to spend more for a better monitor. The E207WFP is $20 more, 1907FPV is $40 more, 1908FP is $80 more, E228WFP is $90 more, and the 2007fp is $150 more. The Samsung 226bw isn't listed as an option, but I may be able to call and work something out.

If I stuck with the E198FP as essentially a bonus, I would be looking to buy a monitor for less than $300. Of course, the quality of the monitor would need to justify purchasing it instead of spending less to upgrade E198FP.

Originally posted by: xtknight

Maybe you should consider the Samsung 226BW? It's more economical and yes it's a TN but I think it would be great for text work, as is the LG L226WT. Both have good contrast and they are even bigger than your 215TW. I mean, honestly the 215TW would be a great choice for you at $350 AR at Newegg. I don't know if that's feasible for your department now or not?

I'm leaning towards the 226bw at the moment. I wouldn't mind having a larger pixel pitch than I do at home on my 215tw. FYI - Buy.com has a $40 rebate on the 226bw that they just put up ($270 AR). If I bought the 226bw from Buy.com, it would allow me to give the E198FP to my assistant, which would be an upgrade for her 17" Dell VGA only LCD. The "17 inch LCD could then be passed on to replace this ancient 15" LCD on the system that sees occasional use for processing shipping and came from God knows where. As you can see - this route gives me some further justification for spending $120 more than I did on the 2007FP that I am currently using.

I'm almost tempted to spend the $90 more on the E228WFP and if I don't like it, either return it or give THAT one to my assistant. The problem with passing it to my assistant is that there are employees higher on the food chain who don't know the first thing about monitors. They would just see that she has a 22" ws and think that they were being left out. For that reason, it is probably better politics to stick with a 19" for her. I don't know much about the E198FP or 1907FPV, is it worth $40 extra to get the 1907FPV?

I know that the 215tw is a good buy at $350 AR and I am certainly tempted, but the $100 rebate is too much to rely on. Rebates are never a guarantee and even when you do get them, they can take several months. It's a risk that I would take myself, but not one I feel I can take with my company's money. Plus, they're still going to see that $450 charge on the credit card. Ironically, if I were to divide them up, the 226bw is probably a better fit for me at home, since I do play games, where as my 215tw is a better fit for work. Not that I'm looking to give up my 215TW

Thanks again to xtknight for being the person to come to with your monitor questions. I still owe it to the advice on this board that I was able to buy my 215tw over a year ago for about $275 (one of the best deals on electronic equipment I've ever gotten).